The Mind Controlling Hero

[Thrakazog]

I typically associate mind controllers with villains based on the ethical implications. But I was wondering, has anybody had any experience with a mind controller as a hero? Is it possible to be a mind controlling hero? I'm thinking of making the attempt but am seeking guidance.

[Kirby]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Would a super who mind controls a bank robber to drop the weapon and surrender less ethical than the super who blasts the bank robber into unconsciousness or the super who disarms and then knocks out the would-be thief?

 

It's not typically what powers you have, but how you use them.

 

If you're too worried, you could always give the mentalist the "one command only" limitation and make it "Stop!"

[Hermit]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Entirely possible. One of my favorite characters that I played until recently was a mind controller named Gaze. The problems with playing him were more related to game balance than anything as the GM did have to walk a tightrope between keeping him from steamrolling over everyone via mental powers, yet not have so many characters with mental defense etc that he became useless. Despite my whining about the latter, the GM did a good job

 

The role playing side was cherry. The first thing I did was make sure he was going to be ethical by giving him this psych lim:

Psychological Limitation: Ethical Mentalist (Common, Strong)(While Gaze sees nothing wrong with Mind Controlling people short term in battle, to save lives, or using his powers to help those who ask for it, he finds it ethically abhorrent to usurp a person's free will permanently or frivolously without their approval.)

[caris]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I think Kirby has hit the nail on the head. Usually, I play Mind Control as part of a suite of other Mental Powers (e.g. a Telepathic character with Telepathy, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, Mind Scan and Ego Attack), or some limited form of the power. A character who's whole schtick is Mind Control would than be picking his commands a lot more carefully.

[Hermit]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Heck, pardon the hubris, but I'm going to post Gaze's background and other bits (personality motivation etc) here since this thread gives me the excuse.

Gaze- Background and Description

Background/History:Her name was Dominique. It's a classy sounding name, and that's what she had, class. Me? I was the original fake, the guy who got by most of his life on charm alone, but she was the real deal. Even when I was a beginning stage hypnotist, untried and untested, she was already a headliner as an escape artist. Heck, she was a lot more than that. Her idea of a 'hobby' was to win Martial Arts completions. That drove her manager nuts, I can tell you.

 

I fell in love at first sight, of course. Well, first it was lust (she was gorgeous) but it moved on from there. What she saw in me? I couldn't say. Maybe it was because I made her laugh. Maybe I did something good in a past life? Then again, I am a charming son of a gun. Whatever the reason, she loved me back. She found my hypnosis fascinating, and we exchanged professional secrets. I taught her self hypnosis, she taught me how to wiggle... out of bonds I mean.

 

Crud, that still sounds dirty no matter how I word it.

 

It turned out that a lot of her own training hadn't come about legitimately. You see, Dom had been a cat burglar at one time, one of the best. So when Hans Falco, notorious but never convicted mob boss decided he needed a job done, he determined she was the best suited for the job. He 'suggested' she come out of retirement.

 

Short form? She was scared, but I gave her courage. She almost turned back to crime, but I held her to the straight and narrow. She wanted to live, but I got her killed.

 

I convinced her to try to turn evidence on Falco, emphasis on the word 'try'. God, I was so naive. Within three days, I was looking on her bullet ridden body in the desert, and about to have a slug put in my own. I guess they didn't expect -me- to have known how to slip out of the cuffs they had me in. I still got shot, but I got a running start first and the bullet only grazed my skull.

 

As I lay there bleeding on the side of Yucca Mountain, they fired again. There was sound of metal on metal, I heard one of the goons gasp out something about "Toxic waste" and sure enough, strange fumes from whatever that was stored there filled my lungs. Convinced I was as good as dead anyway, they fled.

 

Chickens.

 

When I awoke, I was at first surprised to find out I was alive. When my hypnosis began to do things that hypnosis can NOT do, I realized more than that had happened. I should have been dead, instead I got superpowers.I would like to say I decided to bring Falco to justice, but really? I was scared, and I was angry. I wanted to be safe, and I wanted to avenge Dom.

 

Of course I put on a costume. I was too afraid to face Falco and his thugs as Jack B. Charming. As Gaze, I got my revenge, and I scared the hell out myself at the same time. You see, I left the man a blank slate. I wiped every memory he ever had from him before I even realized what I had done.

 

Never again.

 

Still, it seems the City needs heroes once more, so what can I do? Let innocent people suffer from people that make Falco look like a boyscout? I don't think so.

 

 

Personality/Motivation:Jack B. Charming (it's a stage name he legally changed his name to, of course) has had time to pause and reflect on why he is still a superhero despite having avenged the woman he loved. The truth is, having had a loved one of his own ripped away from him by evil men, he can't sit by and watch the same happen to others anymore, not when he has the power to do something about it. What's more, reducing a man to a vegetable, even like a man like Falco, scared him. Gaze knows that with powers like his, the temptation to abuse them is strong. Fearing both for himself, and the minds he might scar, if he gives into that temptation, he has drawn certain lines he now refuses to cross. Being a superhero allows him to use those powers while reminding him to stay faithful to those lines.

 

Those rather sobering thoughts aside, Jack is actually a fun guy when you meet him. He has a theatrical flare in everything he does. In his secret ID, he is charming and friendly, happy to play up to the crowds as their entertainer even when he isn't on stage. As Gaze, since everyone is nervous about mind control anyways (after all, unlike hypnosis, mind control CAN make you do things you don't want to), he plays up the ominous and spooky elements. Gaze is not half as enigmatic as he appears, he just enjoys getting a reaction out of people so plays his Bogey Man role to the hilt.

 

Quote:"My Gaze is upon you, like a fog upon the shore. You can no more escape it than you could your own shadow..."

 

Powers/Tactics:As mentalists in the Champions Universe go, Gaze is incredibly limited. All his powers are merely variations on a common theme: Mind Control. It maybe an effective and terrifying theme, but it's limited nonetheless. Only recently has he learned how to project his will directly into the minds of others without speaking. Gaze can cause opponents to slumber with a thought, or block their vision in a method not unlike hysterical blindness. He can, of course, simply control minds directly, or try to get fancier with triggers and such. He can project near constant psychic waves that cause people not to notice him, or subconsciously pull their punches or avert their gunfire to less vital areas. Of course, if the target isn't human, or is sufficiently shielded against such, Gaze's powers avail him very little indeed.

 

Fortunately for Gaze, his late lover trained him well in certain martial maneuvers. He can't compete with a pure martial artist in hand to hand (Just as he has little chance of defeating a pure mentalist mind to mind) but it does give him a chance of survival when killer robots and other beings he can't affect enter the fray. She also taught him a great deal about escape artistry. Couple these skills with his own knacks and training in acting and such, and you have a rather formidable man even without the powers.

 

Lastly, his friend Rusty, a prop man for various Casino shows, gives Gaze a small, but crucial assist in making sure the hero gets the equipment he needs to get around town and pad his costume.

 

While smart, Gaze isn't a trained tactician, and is still working somethings out. Knowing his limitations though, he tends to try mental powers on physical foes, and switches to using his martial training on opposing mentalists. His love for the theatrical may cause him to be needlessly showy, but when innocents are on the line, he puts his showmanship aside and makes saving them his top priority. He did have the sense to use a name that misleads others. Many foes, upon first meeting him, have wrongfully concluded that since his name was Gaze, all they had to do was avoid eye contact and they'd resist his power. It's a big mistake on their part that Gaze is happy to use in his favor.

 

Campaign Use:That's up to the GM, natch

 

However, a few thoughts on the Hunteds might be called for.

Hypnos is listed "As Powerful" as Gaze, though in truth his range and flight might give the villain a slight edge. Gaze and Hypnos both have melodramatic elements in them, but where as Gaze resists the temptation to abuse his powers, Hypnos dives right in. While Jack would never admit it, he despises Hypnos because the man is everything Jack could become if he were less principled. Hypnos himself has been bested more than once by Gaze, up to and including having a "date" ruined by the meddlesome hero, so rather than inviting PSI in, he is looking for a little personal payback.

 

A bigger problem is VIPER. A cash cow like Vegas is a prime plum indeed to that organization, and where once there were mafia dons, now VIPER wants a bigger piece of the pie. Gaze has interfered more than once with their attempts to expand in turf that Falco once controlled, and they have noticed. What's more, they consider him a perfect subject for study if they ever want to unlock the secrets to creating their own mentalists.

 

(update)'The Royalz" WERE a street gang, minor punks with big ambition. Like VIPER, they hoped to expand their operations to fill the void Falco's departure has left. UNLIKE VIPER, Gaze severely outclassed them (Use the "Street Punk" write ups in Champions: Genre book-pg. 176). Now, they appear to be dead and scattered by an even worse threat, Vendetta.

 

Oswald King "King of Magic" is a rival, not a hunted, but bears mentioning anyways. Oswald's primadonna attitude and treatment of those he works with annoy Jack no end. Both compete for similar gigs, and while Jack could use his powers to one up his rival every time, his ethics hold him back... barely, so they are on a level playing field.

 

Appearance:Gaze's costume is a mix of blacks, blues, and grays, replete with boots, gloves, cape and cowl. Under the cowl is a slim mask but when the cowl is down it is unnoticeable. On the dark blue centerpiece of torso, the symbol of a skyblue eye rests. He does wear a belt, but there is nothing special about it. As Gaze, he carries himself in manners meant to aid his aura of mystery.

 

Out of costume, Jack wears even flashier outfits for the stage (though obviously without hood, mask, or cape) and suits that are still striking and bold off of it. Jack is a handsome man with dark brown hair, and sky blue eyes. His body language is expressive and friendly.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Agreed - Mind Control, whether the bread and butter of a character or a secondary element of a full mentalist, certainly has its place for a hero, he just has to be careful.

 

Of course, it's a thin line - Professor X, depending on continuity and writer, has been on both sides of the line (IMHO). Then some are heroes who go full-scale villain without the character - or the player, sometimes - noticing it (if anybody wants to hear me rant again, ask me about Professor Jurnix....)

 

As for characters I've played who've been mind controllers... sadly, most of them have sat in the "wanna play" pile for a while. For some strange reason, I seem to have a thing for teen mind controllers....

 

Mind Game isn't much of a hero at this point in his career, but that was slated to change after he came to a few realizations about his mentor.

 

Teep, on the other hand... he's got issues, but he's hero all the way. When he can be.

[hfergus]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I have a new player with a new character in a very short term game (about 4 sessions so far) who is almost exclusively a mind controller (some reliable TK). One command: "Be confused!" Normally this means the victim standing around, being confused- "What do I do? What do I do?". Sometimes means doing the wrong thing. Mainly up to the GM and victims pyschs. She is insecure about being a super, period! (Actual disad) Note: most of the ethical dilemmas are not relevent. Interesting character.

 

Powers are like tools, it is what you do with them that determines villian vs hero.

[Alverant]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

If you're too worried' date=' you could always give the mentalist the "one command only" limitation and make it "Stop!"[/quote']

 

Super! I can see it now, you use the power on a flying villain and he plummets to his death by being impaled on the stone gargoyles of a gothic church.

 

I remember an old Far Side cartoon where people are using this spray to get babies to stop crying, stop a bus, etc with the final panel advertising a spray can called "Stop it!", an all purpose product. That would be a concept to work into a hero.

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

If your mind control has the special effect "Strong enough to tear the left arm off any target, and then threatens to do the same to the right if they don't do what he tells them to," I can't see it being more ethical or moral than, "Psychically strong enough to induce targets to do what he tells them to," really.

 

By and large, to me all this 'invading the sanctity of the mind' hoo-hah is just so much nonsense. Your telepathy has no more or less intrinsic ethical aspect than a high perception roll and deduction, for example. Walking into someone's dreams is no more or less ethical than walking into their line of sight on an open street.

 

Mind control is no more or less ethical than seduction, persuasion, bribery, threat or telekinesis with the same outcomes.

[Checkmate]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I'm gonna have to disagree. There is an old saying that if everyone knew what everyone else was thinking, there wouldn't be two friends among us. Not that that really has anything to do with the topic, just thought I'd mention it.

 

More to hand though, when you walk in front of me, you're seeing what I want you to see. What I've chosen to show you. If you're reading my thoughts, you're looking at things I want to keep private. If I want to "show" you my thoughts, I can, by speaking them, or writing them, if I'm not doing that, then you're invading a private place. It is the same ethical decision of reading someone's diary.

[Kirby]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Super! I can see it now' date=' you use the power on a flying villain and he plummets to his death by being impaled on the stone gargoyles of a gothic church.[/quote']That would be as immoral as a brick pushing a surrendering normal off a bridge.

 

I remember an old Far Side cartoon where people are using this spray to get babies to stop crying' date=' stop a bus, etc with the final panel advertising a spray can called "Stop it!", an all purpose product. That would be a concept to work into a hero.[/quote']You think they wouldn't be able to make that product.

Before you complain about "it's a fantasy," I'm talking about they'd have to "Stop" production. : )

[Steel Legs]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

That would be as immoral as a brick pushing a surrendering normal off a bridge.

 

You think they wouldn't be able to make that product.

Before you complain about "it's a fantasy," I'm talking about they'd have to "Stop" production. : )[

 

OW! Ow, ow, ow! That hurt!

 

 

 

 

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Years ago I created a PC Mentalist and during the one session I played him I realized just how sleazy Mind Control is as a power. (This was back during the 4th Ed. days)

 

The team was investigating the murder of an NPC Hero, sort of a "vigilante, stalks-the-night-type" a minor hero in the world. We followed clues as best we could (our team "detective" was being played by one of those people who things dice rolls should handle everything, you know a roll-player). We only found out a few leads, one leading to the dead heroes girlfriend, a waitress at some greasy spoon in the area he "worked". She apparently knew about his Secret ID and wanted nothing to do with superheroes.

 

Every tried being nice. Everyone tried being rude. They tried everything. Then I realized I could make her tell us. I "nudged" her a bit. Afterwards I felt horrible.

 

Later on we've tracked down the bad guy and he's holding the waitress hostage, one move and she dies. Another "nudge" and fight over. (actually I only nudged him to aim elsewhere our team Blaster blew him off the roof of the skyscraper were he fell to his death.) More of that creepy feeling.

 

Police starting looking into why he died. More "nudges". No problem. Hey it was getting easier.

 

That's when I said no more. And from that point on I never played a "true" Mentalist as a PC again.

 

No as far as bad guys go I LOVE Mentalists. I use them semi-frequently as baddies for 3-5 issue story arcs.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Psychological Limitation: Ethical Mentalist (Common' date=' Strong)[/quote']

 

Totally Rocks Hermit

 

 

Excellent

 

 

QM

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

A lot of this will boil down to player ethics too. I don't agree that mind control is innately evil, for example, but at the same time I don't agree that probing through somebody's mind is as ethical as a Conversation or a Persuasion roll; the entire idea is that you're going into their head and pulling out the thoughts, whereas the FX of the rolls is that you've convinced the person it's in their best interests (or at least doesn't hurt them) to tell you those thoughts.

 

As ParagonAlpha demonstrated, some players (or at least I'm assuming that was the player, not the character) simply find Mind Control to be creepy as all get-out, and that's their call. Fair enough. Personally, I'd be less worried by the Mentalist who made the guy aim away from the girl than about the Blaster who blew him clear off the side of the building afterwards - what, nobody had an Entangle handy? Oh well.

 

Again - have to agree with those who argue "it's not what you do it with, it's what you do."

 

"Point the gun away from the innocent victim" or "stop fighting me?" That's not unethical, mind control or otherwise. "Take a header off the building," or "give me all your money" is no *more* ethical when you do it by pointing a gun at somebody and telling them to do it than it is when you mind control them.

 

Some might argue that the fact that they don't have a choice in the matter makes it less ethical, but the fact is that - from the perspective of in the game at least - that's just the rules construct. A certain amount of choice is actually already built into the system, really - the varying effect levels.

 

Now, sure, maybe they still don't have a choice if you *make* that level, but choice does play into how likely that is to happen. Besides - *choice* is a matter of FX. For example:

 

"Mentalist!" - 12d6 Mind Control. Standard build, no bells or whistles.

 

"Super-Conversationalist!" - 12d6 Mind Control, Requires Conversation roll. Costs less, and the FX has suddenly turned it into the other guy's choice - because, by FX, the character is convincing the person that this is what they ought to do, and they're doing it.

 

Which one is more or less ethical? Well, I don't really know, but I do know that in a lot of ways, I actually find the second one creepier, because it posits a character who either goes around, Negotiator style, and talks VIPER agents down... or one who convinces them that it's really for the best to shoot their friends in the head with a Pulson beam.

 

That's really a bit further out there, to me, than the guy who just has 'em do it the old fashioned way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

A lot of this will boil down to player ethics too. I don't agree that mind control is innately evil' date=' for example, but at the same time I don't agree that probing through somebody's mind is as ethical as a Conversation or a Persuasion roll; the entire idea is that you're going into their head and pulling out the thoughts, whereas the FX of the rolls is that you've convinced the person it's in their best interests (or at least doesn't hurt them) to tell you those thoughts.[/quote']

 

If you want to bag that sweet young girl, is it more ethical to:

 

- use your Seduction skill to persuade her that you really, really love her, you'll be together forever and you and she should prove your love for each other

 

- threaten her with a knife if she refuses

 

- get her drunk to lower her resistance and judgement

 

- Mind Control her

 

and, regardless of the method, walk out and never see her again?

 

Perhaps I am mentally deficient, but I fail to see how any of the four is able to occupy morally higher ground.

 

As ParagonAlpha demonstrated' date=' some players (or at least I'm assuming that was the player, not the character) simply find Mind Control to be creepy as all get-out, and that's their call. Fair enough. Personally, I'd be less worried by the Mentalist who made the guy aim away from the girl than about the Blaster who blew him clear off the side of the building afterwards - what, nobody had an Entangle handy? Oh well.[/quote']

 

Agreed. The Mind Controller forces the target to walk into the prison and close the door. The Brick beats him within an inch of his life and tosses him in. The EP burns him to a crisp and pops him into the cell. Only one of them doesn't need to check the prison infirmary first. Who occupies that moral high ground again?

 

Some might argue that the fact that they don't have a choice in the matter makes it less ethical' date=' but the fact is that - from the perspective of in the game at least - that's just the rules construct. A certain amount of choice is actually already built into the system, really - the varying effect levels.[/quote']

 

If I'm holding a gun to the head of a small child, its mother has the *choice* of whether or not to do as I ask. I doubt she sees it that way, though.

 

I agree with Ctaylor - the ethics lie in the use of the ability, not the ability itself. If a person on a rooftop fires a sniper rifle through the head of a target below, is that ethical? Answer for yourself before reading ahead.

 

 

 

Did you answer?

 

 

 

 

 

 

no really, do you have your answer?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, there's actually two snipers. Did you answer:

 

- it's Unethical for both the assassin who just killed the senator who chaired a committee on getting tough on organized crime, and for the polcie officer who just shot a terrorist holding a day care at gunpoint while he set up his bioweapon to spread anthrax over three counties?

 

- it's Ethical for both the assassin who just killed the senator who chaired a committee on getting tough on organized crime, and for the polcie officer who just shot a terrorist holding a day care at gunpoint while he set up his bioweapon to spread anthrax over three counties?

 

or

 

- It depends on the cirumstances?

[Wanderer]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Just as a note, the ethical issues of Mental Control Powers have been discussed extensively some time ago.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41050

[Maccabe]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

To be fair lets consider that not all people with mental powers have the same ethic system. I had a character who had mind control and used it to make supervillians fight their own teammates. He didn't have any psych limits about using his power on people (based on his origin).

The GM of the game I played this character in was more concerned about his Ranged Killing Attack then his Mind Control. Each GM must decide for himself if such a power is amoral or not, just don't punish others, or yourself, if you can justify why the character Mind Controls someone.

[wcw43921]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

There is precedent for a heroic mind-control artist--witness the brief, yet effective career of Hypno-Man--

 

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/106/

 

And while it's been said before on this thread, it falls to a wiser man than many of us to say it best--

 

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."--Albus Dumbledore

[Weldun]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

As has been said by others before me, it is possible to play a mind controlling hero, but it is a very careful hero if they are an ethical one. Funnily enough, I think that Attack of the Clones has one of the best examples. When Obi-wan uses his force influence upon the death-stick dealer, he ultimately leaves the final decision up to the dealer. "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

In the end, though, I'm more worried about the ethics of non-mentalists. Many Bricks (not all) routinely pick up nearby cars, benches and lamp-posts for use as weaponry, as well as simply pounding through scenery or knocking people through walls. How is it ethical to "save someones life" if you recklessly endanger the lives of countless others in the attempt?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Fictional Telepaths - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_telepaths

 

 

Hmmm...

 

 

QM

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

For a while I've wanted to do a group of heroes who have more typically 'villainous' powers but strong heroic mentalities.

 

Mind Control, Disintegration beams, claws, 'Fear powers', etc. It's easy for Spider-Man to be all high-falutin' about lethality when his powers include massive danger sense, ability to dodge most attacks, and non-lethal webbing to safely restrain enemies. But what if Peter Parker instead got adamantium claws and regeneration? Might find it harder to restrain himself if he keeps getting shot ten times a day.

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Meh.

 

People effectively shout their 'private' thoughts all the time. Their demonstrated interests, body language, freudian slips, word choices, and susceptibilities to false logic show more about their secrets than they intend.

 

That is the human condition, and as a GM I'd allow a high perception, conversation, deduction or related roll to extract as much as or more than telepathy in some contexts.

 

There is no 'inside' or 'outside' minds. They're dimensionless, and do not exist in space. Minds don't have borders, bounds, boundaries, limits, walls or fences in the sense of conventional land and buildings. There is no such thing as mental trespass.

 

Someone's clearly mental illusioned you into such attitudes, if arguments about 'violating your mind' have any meaning at all to you. They've violated your mind telepathically to create such thoughts, and mind controlled you to forget it ever happened or was any different prior to the implantation of these beliefs.

 

And they did it all with conversation, persuasion, and oratory, resisted only by your deduction skill.

 

Guess who won those rolls?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Marvel-Girl type mentalist: I-Mind

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Well, how about this one:

 

60 PRE for 50 pts, gives 12d6 PRE attacks (Average 42), 60 PRE to resist PRE attacks, and 21- base roll for PRE-based skills.

 

For 30 more points, that's 21- on Acting, Animal Handling, Bribery, Bureaucracy, Conversation, High Society, Oratory, Persuasion, Seduction and Trading.

 

80 pts is about what you'd pay for a decent 60 AP mentalist multipower.

 

This hyper-PRE character, however, is suddenly pretty much immune to PRE attacks, can deliver devastating PRE attacks fairly reliably, and has the ability to get many of the same effects as Mind Control (or in some cases more), without spending END, without having to hit ECV, and with a pretty high chance of success on opposed rolls.

 

Throw in another 23 points for 21- Deduction, and you achieve many more Mentalist-like results, all based on simple observations anyone can make. True, you're terrible at actual mental combat, but you might be able to persuade that mentalist not to attack you at all -- especially if you make your PRE attack before she can act -- and you'd certainly have a better chance of deducing facts about her past than a true mentalist would have of reading her deep hidden memories.

 

Is this creepy? I don't think so. Munchkinny, a bit, depending on the overall package, but nothing intrinsically offensive to ethics in this, is there?