nexus Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Some Hero System/Champions fans tried Mutants and Masterminds and returned to Champions. I wanted to know why. What unsold you on M and M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? For me, it came down to the familiarity my players had with the Hero System. I ran a short-lived M&M game and had a bad experience with it due to a lethal combination of system unfamiliarity and genre unfamiliarity (only one of six players knew M&M, about half knew Champions, the rest knew neither, and about half the players weren't particularly into comics). My wife (my most dedicated player) hated the wide range of possible outcomes due to the d20 roll. She liked the dependability of the 3d6 bell curve, even if it is wonky on the extreme ends. When I launched my most recent supers game, I had a group consisting of about half old players and half new, and the Hero System was the only game we all had in common (apart from HeroClix). Also, I intended to run things as much from pre-published materials as possible, and I own a LOT of Champions stuff (pretty much everything published for it since Second Edition). So, it was pretty much a no-brainer. I still admire M&M and would like to do more with it, but I doubt that's likely with my current group and I'm generally OK with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? For me, it came down to the familiarity my players had with the Hero System. I ran a short-lived M&M game and had a bad experience with it due to a lethal combination of system unfamiliarity and genre unfamiliarity (only one of six players knew M&M, about half knew Champions, the rest knew neither, and about half the players weren't particularly into comics). My wife (my most dedicated player) hated the wide range of possible outcomes due to the d20 roll. She liked the dependability of the 3d6 bell curve, even if it is wonky on the extreme ends. When I launched my most recent supers game, I had a group consisting of about half old players and half new, and the Hero System was the only game we all had in common (apart from HeroClix). Also, I intended to run things as much from pre-published materials as possible, and I own a LOT of Champions stuff (pretty much everything published for it since Second Edition). So, it was pretty much a no-brainer. I still admire M&M and would like to do more with it, but I doubt that's likely with my current group and I'm generally OK with it. I have sort of have the opposite situation. Our current GM has little experience with Hero and therefore little interest to use it. He's been using M&M and is quite comfortable with it, and since a number of the other players are d20-savvy, that's what we're using. Ironically, my wife has the same attitude towards the d20 roll. She hates the flat percentile, especially since she seems to roll low an inordinate amount of times. (No, really, most of the times you can count the number of times she rolls above 10 with the fingers of one hand and still have enough fingers left to pick up the die.) Personally, I'm not finding it that hard to adapt. Pretty much any problem I've come across stems from just unfamiliarity with the system rather than any issue with it itself. I like how the rules take a couple of steps away from the "define everything as an effect" concept so that, for example, I can create a character with Weather Control without having to put together a multipower of heavily modified slots that approximate what I want to do. I also like the use of Hero points, especially for invoking a one-off feat or power on those special cases when you want to do something just that once without having to purchase the feat/power and haul it around "just in case." Bottom line, M&M allows me to play a RPG dedicated to playing comic-book heroes, and that's what I'm looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? I'm actually kind of curious about this myself. I've heard allot of positive buzz about M and M that has been pretty tempting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtue Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? I read alot of Champions stuff because the world devlopment is really cool But when i do get to play Super Hero RPG I like MNM its a much easier system coming from being a long time DND player My Players al strugled with the Champions system so that was another reason why I chose MNM Both great systems i dont think you can go wrong with either For me its a lot easier system to run also not having to track so many differnt stats END STUN BODY and a few other things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? My problem with HERO is too much unnecessary complexity, particularly in the damage system. Even for normal damage, calculating stun and body separately is too much. Then on top of that you have killing damage which uses a completely different system. It feels a little like AD&D 1e with separate tables for pummelling, overbearing, etc. Newer superhero systems such as M&M and SAS do all that HERO does but faster due to the lack of early 80s mechanics. The hero point system in M&M is a step forwards in terms of genre emulation, imo. In comic books the protagonists are forvever pulling new powers out of their @$$es then forgetting about them next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? The hero point system in M&M is a step forwards in terms of genre emulation, imo. In comic books the protagonists are forvever pulling new powers out of their @$$es then forgetting about them next month. Then again, FASERIP Marvel had a system for that in the 80s. One step forward and two steps back? I do like the MnM implementation, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novi Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? The d20. That is all. Seriously, the flat probability curve is annoying. Give me some predictability with a bell curve or a die pool any day. Also, I didn't quite like their balance of various powers and costs. It seems a little too easy to make a cheesy character with their system. I did like hero points, though. Helps you be heroic. Of course, I should note that I've only played in one M&M game, and I'm not sure I'd call it well run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? I never found anyone to GM Mutants & Masterminds so I never switched. Make mine Champions by Hero Games. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Give me some predictability with a bell curve or a die pool any day. Did you just use the terms "predictability" and "di©e pool" in conjunction? I have found dice pools to be extremely counterintuitive, personally. Maybe it's because my experience with dice pools has been with systems that poorly implemented open-ended die rolls with their dice pools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? For me, M & M has some serious rules issues. I was trying to build a character who could turn into a shadow. The character example they give in the book violates the rules for alternate form. I also did not like some of the defenses where you can simply ignore attacks of a lesser power level. I admit I'm not uber knowledgeable when it comes to the rules for M & M, but it just didn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? There is no superhero game but Champions. Everything else is a pale imitation of it. Believe me, I've played a half dozen other superhero systems. They all pale compared to this one. I've even (Shudder) played Superhero 2044. The reason why I play Champions isn't just "Blackwyrm Games lets me write their adventures." It's that it's the best superhero system out there. Mutants and Masterminds is like stripped down Champions. And once you become stunned in Mutants and Masterminds, you become more and more ineffective as the combat goes on. Also, d20 games don't work without attacks of opportunity, and Mutants and Masterminds eliminated that from the get-go. Plus, the simple fact of aerial combat makes the 3.5 system a horror to use in a game that's based on miniatures and the number of squares you can move. I love the Hero System combat rules. Quite simply, it's the BEST combat system I've ever seen. You can whine about uneven numbers of actions, but so what? It's the best simulator, in my opinion, of what superhero combat SHOULD be like. There is every reason in the world to play Champions, and absolutely no reason to play anything that's come before or after it. Michael Satran The Brawling Balabanto Back with even more Senses Shattering Action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pól Ruadh Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? I played Champions for over 10 years... maybe over 20? (eek!) but the reason I switched was because I found phased combat somewhat irksome (especially recovery) and the need to quantify and number crunch everything was getting in the way. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for the lessons learned and the years of fun I had playing Champions, and I love the boundless enthusiasm and passion the writers have for the various genres they work with, but in the end, I wanted something a little more streamlined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? tried M&M 1e did not like how it handled movement powers I have gotten 2e but have not really dug into it as nobody near me plays it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Never even saw the book. I'm pretty happy with what I've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Green Ronin and others have published some very fine supers sourcebooks for M&M, though. Over and above system and content, I often got the impression that some folks were drawn to M&M by its impressive looking full-color, harcover books. Hopefully the comparable new Champions books will draw in some of that crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking why you (general you) chose to go to M and M. I was asking if you did try it and decided to stay with Champions what influenced that choice. I'm sure M and M is a great system but praising it isn't' really the point of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Did you just use the terms "predictability" and "di©e pool" in conjunction? I have found dice pools to be extremely counterintuitive' date=' personally. Maybe it's because my experience with dice pools has been with systems that poorly implemented open-ended die rolls with their dice pools.[/quote'] If you're using an open-ended pool, this is indeed the case. However, the current incarnation of Shadowrun uses a very stable and predictable dice pool (the only time it gets wonky is if you spend "Edge" dice, which are a limited resource and intended to make things unpredictable). As much as I hate to say nice things about the Storyteller System, the version used in Exalted is also quite predictable. The Ubiquity System (used in Hollow Earth Expedition is so predictable, it's entirely possible to GM it fairly without rolling a die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? hopefully I'm going to see if I can have the thread title changed. Perhaps that will clear things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking why you (general you) chose to go to M and M. I was asking if you did try it and decided to stay with Champions what influenced that choice. I'm sure M and M is a great system but praising it isn't' really the point of the thread. Ah. My apologies. I misunderstood the nature of your request. I now recuse myself from the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Mutants and Masterminds: Why did you stay/come back? Ah. My apologies. I misunderstood the nature of your request. I now recuse myself from the discussion. It's okay the thread title and part of the OP were misleading. No apologies necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Champions: Why did you stay/return? I'm sure its a great system for many but intuitively it just didn't click with me. The implementation of Stats and powers didn't really mesh with my playstyle. I much prefer the way HERO handles these things. Finally I'm running not just a superhero but multiverse campaign and M&M just doesn't cover what I need there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawksmoorSD Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Champions: Why did you stay/return? I would be interested in learning M&M. If anyone is inclined to help me out with that find me on yahoo under HawksmoorSAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Re: Champions: Why did you stay/return? I played M&M once at a con, and didn't really enjoy it very much. I suspect much of that was the GM's fault. I think he was presuming everyone was familiar with D&D 3.x, so he didn't bother explaining much. And the adventure he ran was kinda hackneyed, and that didn't help. But just from that short exposure, the system seemed rather "blah" to me (possibly because I'm pretty "blah" about D&D 3.x). I'd play it again with the right GM, but I'm not going to seek out a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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