Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

[archermoo]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Dude, I promise you... it had less than nothing to do with the MMO.

 

Yup. Especially since Steve had the change planned since before Cryptic approached DoJ about CO.

 

It requires rethinking things, and can be difficult for us grognards to wrap our heads around, but it adds flexibility to the game. Of course I'm an odd duck in that I've run games in 4th edition and earlier with unlined maps. No squares, no hexes, just maps and rulers. It worked great.

[archermoo]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I honestly think folks just aren't wrapping their brains around this. I keep hearing things like "Hero got rid of hexes" or "Hero changed the scale to 1 hex = 1 meter." No. They didn't do either of those things.

 

Hero got rid of the concept of the "game inch," an imaginary construct equal to 2 meters in distance, and now measures distance in vanilla meters instead.

 

That's all.

 

Well, they also got rid of the assumption that combat was being done on a hex map.

 

You can still use hexes. You can still use a scale of 1 hex equals 2 meters. You can map and measure using any kind of scale or method that seems reasonable to you.

 

Again... why should someone have to learn an imaginary unit of measure in order to play Hero? Other RPGs measure in real-world units. Why shouldn't we?

 

Or you can switch scales from combat to combat in the same campaign, or even in the same game session.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

It was never an issue with my gaming group. I guess I need to think about the children.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Well' date=' they also got rid of the assumption that combat was being done on a hex map.[/quote']As an assumption, true. I just meant that they didn't "get rid of hexes" in the sense of somehow trying to make it so that you can't play on a hex map. Because in truth, some things (like Turn Mode) are tracked in degree increments that are still easiest to do on a map with a hex pattern overlaid...

 

But overall, consternation over this change strikes me as being similar to consternation over such things as allowing the Block Combat Maneuver to simulate SFX other than literally blocking. This -- as with that -- increases the game's flexibility, and it always puzzles me a little when folks seem to react negatively to a change that increases their options...

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Since 6th came out, has Hero published anything that included a map? (For instance, a floorplan of the Champions base.) If so, how was the map done? (i.e. with or without a scale, with or without a hex overlay, etc.) Just curious.

[concord]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Ultimate Base maps have a scale in meters in a corner of the map... no grids or hexes.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Thanks. I'd rep ya if I could.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I honestly think folks just aren't wrapping their brains around this. I keep hearing things like "Hero got rid of hexes" or "Hero changed the scale to 1 hex = 1 meter." No. They didn't do either of those things.

 

Hero got rid of the concept of the "game inch," an imaginary construct equal to 2 meters in distance, and now measures distance in vanilla meters instead.

 

That's all.

 

You can still use hexes. You can still use a scale of 1 hex equals 2 meters. You can map and measure using any kind of scale or method that seems reasonable to you.

 

Again... why should someone have to learn an imaginary unit of measure in order to play Hero? Other RPGs measure in real-world units. Why shouldn't we?

 

Exactly, and I can't rep you for this.

[concord]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Repped Killer Shrike for Hugh and Derek for Ghost Angel...

[hfergus]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

One other thing I once used and people may like. Gridless maps, but to scale. Buildings and such wherever and however. Each player got a ruler, two lengths of string marked in whatever increments. (hexes, meters, inches, kellicams...) One for full movement and one for half move. Wasn't too bad.... except for the GM. I used marked paper for each I was contolling. That made turn modes a bit harder, but was not too bad. I even had area of effect papers ready to go. String could even be "bent" ro represent turn mode.

 

This is my favorite mehod when I have the room... Which I do not.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

One other thing I once used and people may like. Gridless maps, but to scale. Buildings and such wherever and however. Each player got a ruler, two lengths of string marked in whatever increments. (hexes, meters, inches, kellicams...) One for full movement and one for half move. Wasn't too bad.... except for the GM. I used marked paper for each I was contolling. That made turn modes a bit harder, but was not too bad. I even had area of effect papers ready to go. String could even be "bent" ro represent turn mode.

 

This is my favorite mehod when I have the room... Which I do not.

The thing I like about the current method is that any map can be "to scale" as long as the elements of the map are scaled against each other. Doesn't matter what the scale is; as long as there is one, it's easy to use it in a game. :-)

[dmjalund]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

maybe there should be a version of the turn mode rule for those using square grids (traveling 60degrees on a square grid is difficult)

[Prestige]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Bzzt. Wrong. EXACTLY THE SAME.

 

5E Turn Mode: Inches Moved This Phase/5. 10" Moved = (10/5) 2" Turn Mode = 1 Turn Every 4 Meters.

 

6E Turn Mode: Meters Moved This Phase/5. 20 Meters Moved = (20/5) 4 Meter Turn Mode = 1 Turn Every 4 Meters.

 

I think I know what's going on... people keep thinking in Hexes. And even in previous edition Movement WAS NOT hexes - it was Inches. Just because 1" = 1 Hex does not mean you couldn't adjust the Hex Scale on the combat map, it was just more difficult. But All The Math was still based off of Inches Moved, not Hexes Traveled (which is really important if you do change the Hex Scale, like we did A LOT for Star Hero games and space combat - in 5E).

 

Things That Haven't Changes:

Turn Mode

Area Of Effect

Half Move

 

Things That Are No Longer Assumed:

The Scale Of The Battle Map.

 

"Bzzt. Wrong." What are you three?

 

I said with movement skill levels. I did the math it is not the same. Apply with movement skills level to it...it did change.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Yup. Especially since Steve had the change planned since before Cryptic approached DoJ about CO.

 

It requires rethinking things, and can be difficult for us grognards to wrap our heads around, but it adds flexibility to the game. Of course I'm an odd duck in that I've run games in 4th edition and earlier with unlined maps. No squares, no hexes, just maps and rulers. It worked great.

 

But then why use meters at all? A meter is an arbitary construct based on the metric system. Instead of that, just call it a "Movement/Area Unit" and since Hero is a cinematic game, say "In this combat, one movement unit=x" That keeps the tactics in the game, keeps the areas the same, and allows everything to fit on battlemaps regardless of the size of your table.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

But then why use meters at all? A meter is an arbitary construct based on the metric system. Instead of that' date=' just call it a "Movement/Area Unit" and since Hero is a cinematic game, say "In this combat, one movement unit=x" That keeps the tactics in the game, keeps the areas the same, and allows everything to fit on battlemaps regardless of the size of your table.[/quote']Are you suggesting that something called a "Movement/Area Unit," which has no meaning outside the game and no set size, would be clearer to understand and explain than a real-world measure such as "meters?"

[Rapier]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I guess I just don't really see the problem.

 

The 6E system allows the GM to scale maps to whatever he desires. This can be handy for vehicle combat or combat where everyone has large amount of movement. The GM can leave the game at 1" = 1m or allow 1" = 2m. It gives us explicit freedom to alter the landscape to fit our needs.

 

Does this possibly require a lit bit of preparation? Yes. If you want to keep 1" = 2m...just divide by 2. Last time I checked /2 wasn't so hard that it should become a burden. Take your range penalty chart and make the change, list on the character sheet the inches of movement. It takes maybe one minute per character.

 

Putting things into meters certainly does make the game more approachable to new players.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Are you suggesting that something called a "Movement/Area Unit' date='" which has no meaning outside the game and no set size, would be clearer to understand and explain than a real-world measure such as "meters?"[/quote']

 

Yes, Derek, I am. It's easier to say "The scale of this map is X, where X equals one unit of area/distance" then it is to specifically use meters. Then there's no inconvenient (And somewhat arbitrary) long division. Let's say my Flight is 35 meters and your Flight is 37 meters. For some ridiculous reason, the GM decides that all distances in his game are to be determined by 5 meter distances. I'm going through the example to make sure I demonstrate why a "Movement Unit" is better.

 

So your full move is a little more than mine, but maybe once or twice a turn, since the average SPD is still a 5, you get to move one extra unit of distance. This is a lot of work for every player and the GM.

 

Now let's replay this with movement units. The GM decides that the scale of the map is five meters. It doesn't matter how big the scale is, it's chosen solely for dramatic discretion. (Hero is a cinematic game, after all.) No matter what you use, hexes, meters, a protractor, a ruler, squares, or dodecahedrons (Preferably without a talking cactus, Dr. Who fans), you move 37 of those, and I move 35. The only thing the GM needs to do is describe how big the area is, and then set the scale of movement for the scene and draw objects on the map. There should be no difference pointwise between most playstyles. Simply change the objects and the distances to suit the feel and theme of the campaign, rather than build in a realistic measurement. If I decide that it's one meter, it's one meter, and turn mode works the same. If I decide that it's five meters, it's five meters, and turn mode works the same. The game plays out exactly the same way, except that the scale of combat is what the GM wants it to be, rather than an arbitrary selection of distances. It's easier to create the "Feel" of Justice League, or the "Feel" of Avengers, or the "Feel" of Watchmen by constructing objects and distances to match the tone of the scene, rather than a "Bigger, Better, Faster, Harder, More" mentality that seems all too prevalent in gaming these days.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Repped Killer Shrike for Hugh and Derek for Ghost Angel...

 

And I got you for Bolo. The circle of life is complete.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Yes' date=' Derek, I am. It's easier to say "The scale of this map is X, where X equals one unit of area/distance" then it is to specifically use meters. Then there's no inconvenient (And somewhat arbitrary) long division. Let's say my Flight is 35 meters and your Flight is 37 meters. For some ridiculous reason, the GM decides that all distances in his game are to be determined by 5 meter distances. I'm going through the example to make sure I demonstrate why a "Movement Unit" is better. [/quote']

 

Until the player wants a character who can outrun a car. "How fast a car?" "well, a car that travels up to 120 mph - how fast is that?" "well, it depends which map scale you use. In the gritty Spies game we played yesterday, that would be 20x as fast as the Silver Age Supers game we played last week, because the scale was different."

 

My vote goes to keeping real world measurements.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

A typical commercially available battlemap is around 33x33 hexes, using 1 hex = 1 meter, you get an area of about 1000 square meters, basically a 100 foot by 100 foot area, for a fairly close range encounter. Using 1 hex = 2 meters, that maps to about 4000 square meters, a 200 foot by 200 foot area, a more typical battle scenario. For situations where range and movement and area of effect play a role, 1 hex = 5 meters can be useful(because, among other things, move throughs have their damage calculated with a m/5 divisor). And at 1 hex = 10 meters, ranged powers have a range = base points in hexes. IOW a 12d6 EB has a range of 60 hexes. Beyond about 1 hex = 20 meters, though, you're leaving the realm of tactical ground combat.

[Simon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Now let's replay this with movement units. The GM decides that the scale of the map is five meters. It doesn't matter how big the scale is, it's chosen solely for dramatic discretion. (Hero is a cinematic game, after all.) No matter what you use, hexes, meters, a protractor, a ruler, squares, or dodecahedrons (Preferably without a talking cactus, Dr. Who fans), you move 37 of those, and I move 35. The only thing the GM needs to do is describe how big the area is, and then set the scale of movement for the scene and draw objects on the map. There should be no difference pointwise between most playstyles. Simply change the objects and the distances to suit the feel and theme of the campaign, rather than build in a realistic measurement. If I decide that it's one meter, it's one meter, and turn mode works the same. If I decide that it's five meters, it's five meters, and turn mode works the same. The game plays out exactly the same way, except that the scale of combat is what the GM wants it to be, rather than an arbitrary selection of distances. It's easier to create the "Feel" of Justice League, or the "Feel" of Avengers, or the "Feel" of Watchmen by constructing objects and distances to match the tone of the scene, rather than a "Bigger, Better, Faster, Harder, More" mentality that seems all too prevalent in gaming these days.

 

Now let's have the character figure out how big their AOE blast is. Not "how many feet across" or "how many hexes"...but how big. How do people normally do this? By seeing what it covers on the map. What actual features it covers. "Wow, that blast covered the entire football stadium!"

 

Battle 1: the GM has the scale set to 5 meters because he wants the battle to take place in a football stadium (he has a large map). My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers a 125 meter radius. That's pretty much the entire field. Cool.

 

Battle 2: the GM has the scale set to 1/2 meter because he wants the battle to take place inside of a school gymnasium. My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers 12.5 meters. That's a smallish portion of the gym floor. That's....kinda sad.

 

Why the difference between battles? Why would you EVER have the scale of the map determine the strength of your powers or how far you can run? That's like saying that the scale of the map should determine how big the buildings are. "Well, I only have this size model for the houses, so this week, the houses are 150 feet tall due to the scale of the map. Next week, they'll be 500 feet tall, since the map will cover a larger area."

[Balabanto]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Now let's have the character figure out how big their AOE blast is. Not "how many feet across" or "how many hexes"...but how big. How do people normally do this? By seeing what it covers on the map. What actual features it covers. "Wow, that blast covered the entire football stadium!"

 

Battle 1: the GM has the scale set to 5 meters because he wants the battle to take place in a football stadium (he has a large map). My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers a 125 meter radius. That's pretty much the entire field. Cool.

 

Battle 2: the GM has the scale set to 1/2 meter because he wants the battle to take place inside of a school gymnasium. My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers 12.5 meters. That's a smallish portion of the gym floor. That's....kinda sad.

 

Why the difference between battles? Why would you EVER have the scale of the map determine the strength of your powers or how far you can run? That's like saying that the scale of the map should determine how big the buildings are. "Well, I only have this size model for the houses, so this week, the houses are 150 feet tall due to the scale of the map. Next week, they'll be 500 feet tall, since the map will cover a larger area."

 

Why not? That's what happens in comics. A writer decides that Superman needs a powerup, he's powered up. Another writer decides Superman needs a powerdown, he powers down. One writer decides that Grodd can wear a "man-suit" The next writer decides that Grodd wearing a man-suit is stupid and removes it from continuity. This happens all the time.

[Simon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I don't know what kind of comics you're reading, but those that I've read and followed have a little thing called "internal consistency"

 

I absolutely would NEVER play in a campaign in which the GM decided that power levels and abilities were arbitrary based on the scale that he decided on for the map.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Realism isn't real. It's just realism.

[Simon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Realism isn't real. It's just realism.

And internal consistency has nothing to do with realism. Everything to do with good storytelling, however.