Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

[CrosshairCollie]

I just got the Basic 6e Rulebook today to check it out. This really has me scratching my head. Why is movement and distance no longer rendered in hexes? It seems like it just adds another math step to the game when you use the battlemap, since you have to insert a 'divide everything by two' when measuring. Why have '14m' Running instead of 7" (or 7h, if you prefer)?

 

Apologies if this has been answered before, my search fu failed me.

[Haerandir]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I imagine for two reasons: First, because it actually removes a math step (no more converting map inches into real-world meters) and because they want to conform more closely to the MMO (which doesn't use a hex grid, but does use meters in all of its power descriptions).

 

There's no fundamental law of physics that says a battlemat's hexes HAVE to equal 2 meters. We're just used to it from 28 years of Hero System convention.

 

Plus, a lot of these young whippersnappers who are getting into gaming these days don't even USE battlemats! I know, I know, it sounds like blasphemy, but there it is. Gotta keep up with the times.

[Greywind]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

And it removes the necessity of trying to fit a map to a hex grid to make sense. Which removes the printing step of overlaying a hex grid on a map.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

You can set 1 map unit at 1 meter, or 5 meters. I expect to vary it if/when I run a game again.

 

We have been playing 1 hex = 1 meter, and I notice this makes AoE quite powerful, and limits the utility of high levels of movement.

[Rapier]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

You can set 1 map unit at 1 meter, or 5 meters. I expect to vary it if/when I run a game again.

 

We have been playing 1 hex = 1 meter, and I notice this makes AoE quite powerful, and limits the utility of high levels of movement.

 

Really? AoEs take up the same amount of space. I guess I'm just confused. How so?

[Lucius]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Really? AoEs take up the same amount of space. I guess I'm just confused. How so?

 

Using the 1 hex = 1 m scale makes the battlemat only half as large. The Area of Effect takes up the same space, but there's less space to be taken up, so it seems proportionally more powerful.

 

Similarly, if you have enough movement to get from one end of the battlespace to the other in one half phase, having even more movement than that becomes less useful.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary speculates that Roy Rogers bought movement on a Trigger

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I imagine for two reasons: First' date=' because it actually [i']removes[/i] a math step (no more converting map inches into real-world meters) and because they want to conform more closely to the MMO (which doesn't use a hex grid, but does use meters in all of its power descriptions).

 

There's no fundamental law of physics that says a battlemat's hexes HAVE to equal 2 meters. We're just used to it from 28 years of Hero System convention.

 

Plus, a lot of these young whippersnappers who are getting into gaming these days don't even USE battlemats! I know, I know, it sounds like blasphemy, but there it is. Gotta keep up with the times.[/QUote]

um...so what do you use then? I mean do you use real world battle maps? if you use a map you still have to convert at some point. And if you're not using a map who cares if it's meters or hexes? And old gamers went mapless too. It's not the the newbs.

[Rapier]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I've known a few wargamers over the years, and they tend to use a blank hunk of fabric or plastic to draw on and gauge range with a tape measure.

[Rapier]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Using the 1 hex = 1 m scale makes the battlemat only half as large. The Area of Effect takes up the same space, but there's less space to be taken up, so it seems proportionally more powerful.

 

Similarly, if you have enough movement to get from one end of the battlespace to the other in one half phase, having even more movement than that becomes less useful.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary speculates that Roy Rogers bought movement on a Trigger

 

Ahhh. That is what I expected. 1" = 1m means that your maps are taking up more space.

[薔薇語]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Plus' date=' a lot of these young whippersnappers who are getting into gaming these days don't even USE battlemats! I know, I know, it sounds like blasphemy, but there it is. Gotta keep up with the times.[/quote']

 

I'm one of those "young whippersnappers". Battle maps seem interesting and potentially useful, but I'd rather be more free form and just describe the terrain orally. This way I don't have to draw / plan out a map in advance and it allows the players a little more room for improvisation. Although the hex / meter thing didn't bother me, I can understand how it can get annoying. There have been a few times when I do my conversions from run/spd to mph and get some odd results simply because I forgot the system was a 1":2meter base.

 

La Rose.

[Haerandir]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

um...so what do you use then? I mean do you use real world battle maps? if you use a map you still have to convert at some point. And if you're not using a map who cares if it's meters or hexes? And old gamers went mapless too. It's not the the newbs.

 

It was a joke, son.

 

Like Rapier & Hugh say, some folks use blank paper, or miniature terrain, or a whiteboard, or vary their scale depending on circumstance/whim. And some people hear you talking about a game where everything's measured in 'hexes' or 'inches' and assume you're talking about a wargame, not an RPG. From discussions in game stores and on other Internet sites, I know that there are people out there who reject HERO out of hand because of cosmetic things like this.

 

From the game designer's viewpoint, there's really no advantage to hard-coding a scale into the ruleset.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I imagine for two reasons: First' date=' because it actually [i']removes[/i] a math step (no more converting map inches into real-world meters) and because they want to conform more closely to the MMO (which doesn't use a hex grid, but does use meters in all of its power descriptions).

 

It has nothing to do with the MMO at all.

 

---RE: OP

Now you can use maps with hexes, or squares if you find a cool map that has those preprinted on them (all those DnD maps? Just became something we can use), or even use a battle map with Escher's Lizards as the dividers.

 

Or a white board, which is what we use in one of our games.

 

Or nothing. Thus removing math steps from conversion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Really? AoEs take up the same amount of space. I guess I'm just confused. How so?

 

Using the 1 hex = 1 m scale makes the battlemat only half as large. The Area of Effect takes up the same space, but there's less space to be taken up, so it seems proportionally more powerful.

 

Similarly, if you have enough movement to get from one end of the battlespace to the other in one half phase, having even more movement than that becomes less useful.

 

Exactly. When the battlemat is in 2 meter increments, one character stands in one hex. He takes up a 2m x 2m block of space.

 

When the battlemat is in 1 meter increments, one character stands in one hex. He takes up a 1m x 1m block of space. The players do not tend to place the characters further apart on the mat (or table), so they become closer together in game measurements.

 

I've been tempted to go to no scale maps for tactical combat. For one thing, it would eliminate hex counting. We have prohibited hex counting (my phase comes up, so I count the hexes between me and every possible target to determine which ones are viable choices given my half move, range modifiers and attack options and select the optimal one; measure my AoE footprint in every possible configuration; etc.). The characters don't have a couple of minutes to take such accurate stock of their surroundings. They have a few seconds (3 seconds is a full phase if you have a 4 SPD). We'd likely make an exception for characters with special abilities like Absoliute Range Sense - and if you don't (ie everyone can count out the hexes to their hearts' content), how is that worth any points? I prefer actions like "I will move towards Ogre and engage in HTH combat. If I get there in a half move, I'll punch him and if not, I'll shoulder check him (move through)" to "I 'd like to attack Ogre, but he's 9 meters away and my half move is only 7 meters, so I guess I'll move over to Armadillo and punch him, since he's only 6 meters away."

 

As for "no map", I find this leads to a lot of phases starting with an extended discussion of the terrain, where every ally and enemy is, etc. It also tends to result in the same "all characters know distances and spatial relations at a glance" as players ask if they can use an AoE to target certain opponents without hitting allies, how far is so and so; oh, I can't get there in a half move so how far is so and so". And, unless the GM is keeping a detailed map anyway, distances become vague and inconsistent. There's not much point charging character points for every meter of movement if the characters' ability to close on a target is dictated by GM whim rather than the distance between the characters.

 

Of course, some groups, and even some games, are more suited to running without a map.

[hfergus]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I've used hex maps and not used hex maps. Each has advantages. Hex maps let you know visually how far away you are. And large minatures can really imprss. Range mods and movement can be more precise. Downside - If people are fighting at range and others hand-to-hand, the map can get awkward. Also I've found that in this case combat slows down as people count the hexes (or meters if free form. Some sort of grid can speed thid up.) It also requires more setup time.

 

No map makes combat faster, but requires more description and requires trust of the GM by the players that his is not messing with them.

 

Right now I have no map, as I have no room to place it.

 

As to why the change - others have said it. It confuses the heck out of people that are new when you say hexes.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Regarding hexes or meters -- while I prefer the 2-meter hexes, I can understand the reasoning (and appreciate that it allows for easier use of maps from other game systems).

 

I almost never run games and only rarely play in games without a battlemap. In one noteworthy example at GenCon, the GM did such a poor job of describing the situation that, when he finally relented to our pleas to sketch it out on paper, all of the players said, "Oh! You never said the house was L-shaped! That changes everything!"

 

And agreed that doing it all in-the-head does leave the whole movement and range mod and AOE distance thing pretty much up to the GM's whim. Not necessarily a bad thing, just agreeing with the prior posters.

 

On the pro-battlemap side, I tend to throw details into maps (parking meters, mailboxes, dumpsters, etc.) that frequently allow creative use of terrain. In one case, a hero decided to use a metal trash can lid like a frisbee to take an agent down (rather than just jumping over there and punching him). It led to an amusing exchange with an NPC bystander. In another case, a player turned a drinking fountain into a useful distraction. So even if I switched to meter measurements, I'd continue using a battlemap of some sort.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I just got the Basic 6e Rulebook today to check it out. This really has me scratching my head. Why is movement and distance no longer rendered in hexes?

IMO, the more relevant question is "Why was it ever rendered in hexes?" There is no reason at all why one should have to learn a different system of measurement to play this game. It used to be "a hex = 2 meters." Well, if a hex equals 2 meters, why not just say 2 meters?

[Escafarc]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Hexes, Smexes! I would rather have gone to Octagons myself.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Hexes' date=' Smexes! I would rather have gone to Octagons myself.[/quote']

 

One suggestion I considered submitting for 6e was changing from 2m hexes to a 1m equilateral triangle dot pattern. I decided it was too complicated for too little gain. However, I'm considering getting it printed out for a battlemat.

[Greywind]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

IMO' date=' the more relevant question is "Why was it ever rendered in hexes?" There is no reason at all why one should have to learn a different system of measurement to play this game. It used to be "a hex = 2 meters." Well, if a hex equals 2 meters, why not just say 2 meters? [/quote']Because hexes are the standard for wargaming.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

IMO' date=' the more relevant question is "Why was it ever rendered in hexes?"[/quote']

 

I think hexes come out more precise for representing turning and movement distance, as opposed to using squares.

 

But I think your main point is, why 2-meter hexes instead of 1-meter hexes? As to that, I have no idea.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

IMO' date=' the more relevant question is "Why was it ever rendered in hexes?" There is no reason at all why one should have to learn a different system of measurement to play this game. It used to be "a hex = 2 meters." Well, if a hex equals 2 meters, why not just say 2 meters? [/quote']

 

It saves a step. Instead of going 'Area of Effect 8m Radius, so 8/2=4, so it's a 4 hex radius', you go straight to counting four hexes.

 

I dunno. It would have made more sense to me to keep using hexes, but like someone said, the MMO doesn't use them, so they changed it.

[sobran]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

It saves a step. Instead of going 'Area of Effect 8m Radius, so 8/2=4, so it's a 4 hex radius', you go straight to counting four hexes.

 

I dunno. It would have made more sense to me to keep using hexes, but like someone said, the MMO doesn't use them, so they changed it.

I think this is a misnomer. The Hero System is more than simply the Champions IP. I would not purchase it if that is all it were, to be honest. YMMV. My point is, I seriously doubt the MMO is why they changed it. That makes no sense. The more likely explanation is that using hexes makes a few things simpler (scatter tables for missed attacks, turn rates, ect) and complicates quite a few things. I hate drawing buildings on a hex grid. It bugs me. Not a big deal, but neither is losing hexes.

 

I have always converted it to freeform drawing anyway. There are hexless battlemats. In my case, I just use a piece of plexiglass and dry erase markers.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

It saves a step. Instead of going 'Area of Effect 8m Radius, so 8/2=4, so it's a 4 hex radius', you go straight to counting four hexes.

 

I dunno. It would have made more sense to me to keep using hexes, but like someone said, the MMO doesn't use them, so they changed it.

 

Using hexes only "saves a step" once you've already made the step of converting from real-world units of measurement into them in the first place. The meter on the other hand happens to already be a real-world unit of measurement, so while it's a bit of a change for me as well I'd honestly think that the shoe is more on the other foot...

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I think hexes come out more precise for representing turning and movement distance, as opposed to using squares.

 

But I think your main point is, why 2-meter hexes instead of 1-meter hexes? As to that, I have no idea.

 

Probably because back when Champions first appeared most miniatures for roleplaying were 28mm scale and they fit well into the 1 hex = 2 m.

 

Currently I'm using a mondomat with 1 1/2" hexes so that the Heroclix range of figures (38mm) work perfectly.

 

Personally, I can't imagine a Hero combat without a battlemat. Not using it would simply add time to combat by requiring myself and others to keep track of where everybody/thing is in relation to everyone/thing else. Like another poster said, drawing up some fine detail on the mats or using the old Flextiles products adds a lot to combat, because people are often reminded of their environment (great for brick tricks requiring 'appropriate items of opportunity").

 

I can the logic of why 6Ed dropped hexes (allows use of other maps with square overlays; draws in D&D gamers etc) but I've stuck with them and converted people to their use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Nothing would prevent using a hex map in the squares-based d20 system either, and it would get rid of the clunky "every second diagonal takes twice as much distance" rule. Funny how almost everyone makles an odd number of diagonal moves...