Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Making the size/range adjust with the map scale could be the equivalent of a free advantage on a lot of abilities.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

If this is just a non-issue why the change at all? I mean does it matter what scale is used...why change it? Was it broken before? Did people get upset that they could not visualize 2 meters...but can somehow visualize 1 meter?

 

It's not a matter of visualization, though. It's a matter of simplifying the number of units required by the rules. 5e and previously, you had three interchangeable units, hexes, inches, and meters (1 hex=1 inch=2 meters). Since meters were the only one of those that is also a real-world measurement, that's what stuck. It's not that visualizing in chunks of x meters is necessarily easier than visualizing in chunks of 2x meters, but that it's simpler to work in one unit than converting between three units.

 

(On a much less important note, it also removes the age old "wait, did you mean scale inches?" question...)

[Balabanto]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

And internal consistency has nothing to do with realism. Everything to do with good storytelling' date=' however.[/quote']

 

There are lots of ways to have internal consistency. What looks like internal consistency to one person looks like power creep to someone else. I've been running the same Champions world for 23 years now, since 1987. I have a lot of players. The game works because the power ranges and active points are consistent, not because their effects on the world are. Character special effects need to be consistent. But building everything absolutely realistically leads to just as much silliness as not. In 6th edition champions, just like in 1st edition champions, a baby can still throw a football eighty yards. People don't like to talk about it, but that's the rules of the game. Realistically, according to the UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom book, there's no reason to ever be a starting superhero when you could be an UNTIL agent. And that's still canon. Realistically, if you run in San Francisco or other West Coast cities, vibratory powers should have less of an effect on buildings than they do on buildings in East Coast cities where the buildings aren't built to withstand earthquakes. But those aren't the rules of the game, it's just SFX and common sense. Part of my problem with the Champions Universe, and the way characters are designed in it, is exactly this. There's no reason to be a superhero when you can be an UNTIL agent. But I keep looking at the mathematical models the game is using to design things in the last two editions and thinking "Why don't these numbers bear out in combat when I apply them tactically to situations? The Champions always get slaughtered."

 

I run a game with 10-12 die attacks, (a few of the more experienced characters in the 550+ range have 13-14), 20-30 point defenses, and total OCV of 8-10 for starting characters and between 10-12 for experienced heroes, with a few exceptions. My game has not changed from the 4th edition ranges. There was no need for it to. Generic villains have between 10-12 dice, powerful villains have 12-14, and a master villain will have 15-16 dice. There's 1-2 villains in the whole world who have powers that top that. But it works. There's a few villains with gimmick powers (The Undead Skull, See Foxbat for President) who run way over (I can't wait to convert that sheet. It's going to be creative dentistry). But it's balanced. People play. They have a good time, because the characters personalities don't change, and they understand that I don't use the CU. Everything is pretty micromanaged. But it works. I run a gameworld with over 60-70 total characters in it. (We jump around a lot) But it's balanced, and fun, and fair.

 

The most important thing is not internal consistency. That's the second most important thing. The most important thing is the GM being fair to his players. And that means to every single character, not just the ones he's currently running for. The problem with the 1 meter distance movement thing is that area effect also got cheaper. Much cheaper. Cheaper to the point where if characters do not spread out to the point where they are unable to tactically support each other, they are excessively vulnerable to group strikes. And on a 1 meter scale map, it's close to impossible to be in a position where you can get a better tactical position in a superhero game. In a pulp game or a fantasy game, this works great. Characters can't fly, shoot bolts of cheese from their butt, or whatever. But Champions is what's played the most. Look how many posts this board has compared to all the others.

[Simon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

You work in a fundamentally different mode from just about everyone else. And you seem perplexed that everyone else doesn't want to follow your method...or that things are setup based on what the rest of the world tends to favor.

 

I cannot even fathom BEGINNING to play with a GM that set the area of an attack or the speed at which a character could run based on the scale of a map in a given battle. That's inane. You seem to favor that method -- good on you. But don't act surprised or affronted when the system changes to accommodate those of us (who comprise the VAST VAST VAST majority) who prefer internal consistency within our system rather than an arbitrary changing of the scales and power of abilities based on the level of detail that a GM wants to work into their map.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I said with movement skill levels. I did the math it is not the same. Apply with movement skills level to it...it did change.

 

You know, I may have missed something somewhere. Plus, I don't recall having done anything with movement skill levels for any of the stuff I converted over to 6E...

 

So, since you have done the math and since I don't have my books on me at the moment, could you explain how movement skill levels cause a problem with Turn Mode in 6E?

[Greywind]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

There are lots of ways to have internal consistency. What looks like internal consistency to one person looks like power creep to someone else. I've been running the same Champions world for 23 years now, since 1987. I have a lot of players. The game works because the power ranges and active points are consistent, not because their effects on the world are. Character special effects need to be consistent. But building everything absolutely realistically leads to just as much silliness as not. In 6th edition champions, just like in 1st edition champions, a baby can still throw a football eighty yards. People don't like to talk about it, but that's the rules of the game. Realistically, according to the UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom book, there's no reason to ever be a starting superhero when you could be an UNTIL agent. And that's still canon. Realistically, if you run in San Francisco or other West Coast cities, vibratory powers should have less of an effect on buildings than they do on buildings in East Coast cities where the buildings aren't built to withstand earthquakes. But those aren't the rules of the game, it's just SFX and common sense. Part of my problem with the Champions Universe, and the way characters are designed in it, is exactly this. There's no reason to be a superhero when you can be an UNTIL agent. But I keep looking at the mathematical models the game is using to design things in the last two editions and thinking "Why don't these numbers bear out in combat when I apply them tactically to situations? The Champions always get slaughtered."

 

I run a game with 10-12 die attacks, (a few of the more experienced characters in the 550+ range have 13-14), 20-30 point defenses, and total OCV of 8-10 for starting characters and between 10-12 for experienced heroes, with a few exceptions. My game has not changed from the 4th edition ranges. There was no need for it to. Generic villains have between 10-12 dice, powerful villains have 12-14, and a master villain will have 15-16 dice. There's 1-2 villains in the whole world who have powers that top that. But it works. There's a few villains with gimmick powers (The Undead Skull, See Foxbat for President) who run way over (I can't wait to convert that sheet. It's going to be creative dentistry). But it's balanced. People play. They have a good time, because the characters personalities don't change, and they understand that I don't use the CU. Everything is pretty micromanaged. But it works. I run a gameworld with over 60-70 total characters in it. (We jump around a lot) But it's balanced, and fun, and fair.

 

The most important thing is not internal consistency. That's the second most important thing. The most important thing is the GM being fair to his players. And that means to every single character, not just the ones he's currently running for. The problem with the 1 meter distance movement thing is that area effect also got cheaper. Much cheaper. Cheaper to the point where if characters do not spread out to the point where they are unable to tactically support each other, they are excessively vulnerable to group strikes. And on a 1 meter scale map, it's close to impossible to be in a position where you can get a better tactical position in a superhero game. In a pulp game or a fantasy game, this works great. Characters can't fly, shoot bolts of cheese from their butt, or whatever. But Champions is what's played the most. Look how many posts this board has compared to all the others.

If the game is internally consistent, then by extension, it is automatically fair to the players, IF the players know what to expect going in.

 

Bringing up points, you're arguing game mechanics over internal consistency of the game world.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Are you suggesting that something called a "Movement/Area Unit' date='" which has no meaning outside the game and no set size, would be clearer to understand and explain than a real-world measure such as "meters?"[/quote']

 

Yes' date=' Derek, I am.[/quote']Okay. I disagree, and I think Simon has done a fine job of outlining why. I like the move to raw meters in 6E precisely because it makes game effects less tied to a specific map scale (and more clearly explained to players). What you propose would not only make game effects much more tied to map scale, it wouldn't even be a consistent map scale. I can't see that even being usable outside certain extremely cinematic superheroic games, and not particularly desirable (to me) even in those...

[Greywind]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Okay. I disagree' date=' and I think Simon has done a fine job of outlining why. I like the move to raw meters in 6E precisely [b']because[/b] it makes game effects less tied to a specific map scale (and more clearly explained to players). What you propose would not only make game effects much more tied to map scale, it wouldn't even be a consistent map scale. I can't see that even being usable outside certain extremely cinematic superheroic games, and not particularly desirable (to me) even in those...

Which completely and totally destroys any internal consistency and/or logic...

[wick]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I agree that not having three terms for the same thing (inch/hex/2 meters) makes life easier. However, there have been some problems at the table with my group because of maps in 6E.

 

My group ALWAYS uses the rules for turn mode when using a map, and as Prestige pointed out, those rules "still use hexes in facing". How do people handle turn mode on non-hex maps?

 

My group has also had problems with scale when trying to have a combat over a large area. Lets use Giant Stadium as an example. The field is 360 feet long by 160 feet wide thats about 110 meters long by 49 meters wide.

 

In previous editions where 1h=2m this meant we needed a map that was about 55 inches by 25 inches to fit the entire field. Now thats a huge map (5 feet by 2 1/2 feet), but its doable. Now that 1h=1m, however, if you don't scale the map you'd need something about double the size.

 

Right, so most people would say "Just scale your map. Make a hex equal something larger than 1 meter (maybe 2, or 3 or 4 meters)". This is a great idea, but we haven't been able to make it work for some reason because of movement and AOE.

 

If a map has a scale of greater than 1h=1m, and my flight is 35m, how many hexes do I move in a half move? How is my turn mode effected?

 

If I have an 8m AOE radius blast, how many people what are in adjacent hexes can I hit if the scale is greater than 1h=1m? Why does the scale of the map change the number of targets I can hit?

 

Also if you scale up a map how do you figure out knockback?

 

Now I apologize if any of these sound like snide questions, but they aren't meant to. This has been a topic of discussion within my gaming group for a while, and we have been unable to come up with any decent solutions.

 

Any help figuring this out would be appreciated, just understand that "fudge it" doesn't work in conjunction with using a map in my group.

 

I would maybe cut up an old mat or just draw on a paper for each player a zoom in of the Hex that they are in. They would have 2 minatures to represent their character. One on the big board representing their location in the big view i.e.. 1" = to greater than 2 meter, scale. And they would have another minature on their own hex map representing their placement in the larger scale hex in terms of 1" to 2 meter scale. You may want the scale of the larger hex to be able to be broken down into several hexes such as 1 hex= 6 meters which can be broken down into like 7 smaller 2 meter hexes. This will allow you to calculate turns , provide a zoom in for an AoE power, ans a start/end hex for movement while allowing you retain the ability to fight/move on a much grander scale.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Nice to see the elimination of Comeliness finally knocked off the top of the HERO edition-rules debate list.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Nice to see the elimination of Comeliness finally knocked off the top of the HERO edition-rules debate list.

It never ceases to astonish me what things become hot-button issues for some folks...

[Gideon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I would maybe cut up an old mat or just draw on a paper for each player a zoom in of the Hex that they are in. They would have 2 minatures to represent their character. One on the big board representing their location in the big view i.e.. 1" = to greater than 2 meter' date=' scale. And they would have another minature on their own hex map representing their placement in the larger scale hex in terms of 1" to 2 meter scale. You may want the scale of the larger hex to be able to be broken down into several hexes such as 1 hex= 6 meters which can be broken down into like 7 smaller 2 meter hexes. This will allow you to calculate turns , provide a zoom in for an AoE power, ans a start/end hex for movement while allowing you retain the ability to fight/move on a much grander scale.[/quote']

 

Its a nice suggestion, a bit complicated for my taste, but a nice suggestion none-the-less.

[Gideon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

It's 60 degrees. Though since it sounds like you are still using hex maps then why is it even an issue with your group?

Because BoloOfEath is right. I have never played a wargame. So I am wondering how you determine a 60-degree turn when not using a hex map. Do you need a protractor?

 

Please give a page reference from 6E that says a hex now equals 1 meter' date=' because I'm pretty sure anyone who makes that claim is just making stuff up at this point...[/quote'] Sorry bout that. You are absolutely right. Please ignore the comment.

 

You round up' date=' generally in the Player's favor, just like you always have for movement and just about any other math in HERO.[/quote']

Huh? If a Full Move is 35m then a Half Move is 17.5m rounded in the players favor (AS ALWAYS) to 18m. Apply that to the scale of your map. If it's 1 hex = 1m that looks like 18 hexes to me. If it's 1 hex = 2m it's 9 hexes.

 

Seriously, that can't possibly be even remotely difficult. It's a total non-issue. Because THE MATH HASN'T CHANGED. Half your Combat Movement = Half Move. Turn Mode is Total Distance Traveled This Phase/5. Again, not hard.

First off, just because the math hasn't changed doesn't mean its "a total non-issue". If it were, I wouldn't be discussing it with you and asking all these questions.

 

Now, you may be right, scaling from 1 hex = 1m to 1 hex = 2m is easy and works well, but once you get larger I start to see problems. And the problems get worse if you (as people have already suggested) change the scale between combats/ encounters/ scenes/ adventures/ game sessions

 

Lets say the scale is 1h =3m. 35m of Flight now allows me to move 11.6666667 (12) hexes as a full move or 6 hexes as ha half move. That’s not all that bad. Its about on par with your example.

 

But what about if we push the scale up to 1h = 4m?

 

You don’t see an issue, but I do. Perhaps if we look at a range of movement speeds you will understand my problem better.

 

At 1h=1m:

34m: Full move 34m/ 34h, half move 17m/17h

35m: Full move 35m/ 35h, half move 17.5m rounds to 18m/ 18h

36m: Full move 36m/ 36h, half move 18m/ 18h

37m: Full move 37m/ 37h, half move 18.5m rounds to 19m/ 19h

38m: Full move 38m/ 38h, half move 19m/ 19h

39m: Full move 39m/ 39h, half move 19.5m rounds to 20m/ 20h

40m: Full move 40m/ 40h, half move 20m/ 20h

 

When using a full move every meter of movement changes the distance traveled on a map by 1 hex, and when using a half move every 2 meters of movement changes the distance travels on a map by 1 hex.

 

At 1h=4m

34m: Full move 34m/ 8.5h rounds to 9h, half move 17m/ 4.25h rounds to 4h

35m: Full move 35m/ 8.75h rounds to 9h, half move 17.5m rounds to 18m/ 4.5h rounds to 5h

36m: Full move 36m/ 9h, half move 18m/ 4.5h rounds to 5h

37m: Full move 37m/ 9.25h rounds to 9h, half move 18.5m rounds to 19m/ 4.75h rounds to 5h

38m: Full move 38m/ 9.5h rounds to 10h, half move 19m/ 4.75h rounds to 5h

39m: Full move 39m/ 9.75h rounds to 10h, half move 19.5m rounds to 20m/ 4h,

40m: Full move 40m/ 10h, half move 20m/ 5h,

41m: Full move 41m/ 10.25h rounds to 10h, half move 20.5m rounds to 21m/ 5.25h rounds to 5h

42m: Full move 42m/ 10.5h rounds to 11h, half move 21m/ 5.25h rounds to 5h

 

A character’s half move in hexes doesn’t change until 43m of movement.

 

Now, hen using a full move every 4 meters of movement changes the distance traveled on a map by 1 hex, and when using a half move every 8 meters of movement changes the distance travels on a map by 1 hex.

 

I understand that scaling works that way (that’s math), but I have reasons why I don’t think it functions at a gaming table.

 

The obvious solution is to allow more people to occupy hexes that are measured in larger increments - I think the better question here is how it even remotely makes sense that a person normally occupies a space 6.5 feet across. With that logic/scale you can't get a family of four around your average kitchen table.

If you up the scale and 1 Hex = 4 Meters and your AoE is 16 meters across ... 16/4 = 4 meters.

While, yes that is an obvious solution, it is by no means a realistic solution.

 

This is part of my reason for saying I don’t think it functions at a gaming table. On a 6’x4’ table you can easily fit a map that is 3’x3’ with room for 4-6 players and a GM. Megaplayboy already pointed out how this works for scaling. A 3’x3’ hex map is normally about 33x33 hexes (that’s 33mx33m at 1:1, or about 100’x100’).

 

Now if I want to have a combat on at Giant Stadium I need to scale the map to 1:4 because the field is about 110mx49m. Now I say “I need to scale the map” because if I don’t scale the map it won’t fit on the table, and sorry but I think you’re ignoring this part of my argument.

 

Unless I use Wick’s suggestion, which I think is to overcomplicated to implement well and shouldn’t be a necessity, I have no way to represent the fact that 4 or 5 people with different move speeds are all in the same hex (but different parts of said hex). Why? Because the hexes are 1 inch across

 

So any suggestion of how I represent (on the map) the fact that there are multiple people in one hex?

 

Maybe now you understand why I asked the questions of “how does scaling affect turn mode” and “how does it affect AOE”?

[Simon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I think you're still utterly and completely failing to actually think this through.

 

How do you measure turn mode? The same way you always did. Use a hex map if that floats your boat. Or just eyeball it. "That's about 60 degrees -- 1/6 of a circle" is just as valid a measurement as hex facings or anything else you care to come up with. You're creating hard rules in your head that you dare not violate lest you somehow make things unrealistic/unbalanced....when it's those very "hard rules" that you're creating that's doing the unbalancing and making things unrealistic.

 

Why would you EVER restrict an arbitrary unit of measurement (a hex) to contain only one character/person? What happens if your map is on a grand scale (say, the entire US)? Only one person can fit in a given hex....making the total population of the US about 2500 people (assuming a 50x50 hex map). That's....sad.

 

Why would you round somebody's movement (or AOE) to fit on your arbitrary hex? "Each hex on this map is 10m. My character has 25m of Flight, so I'll move 3 hexes." No. Your character has 25m of Flight. You'll move 25m. On the map, that will be approx. 2 1/2 hexes. If this bugs you from some OCD perspective and you simply MUST put characters in the center of each arbitrary hex on the map, then by all means, go ahead....and keep track of their movement, either going up or down a hex as appropriate to even things out.

 

Rounding rules affect character creation. They have absolutely nothing to do with units of measurement on a map. Stop confusing yourself.

 

Just use a map. If you want to have a map that shows a large area and still deal on a fine level of detail when needed, then do what has been suggested above -- which just happens to be the way things work in the real world (take street maps, for example): You have the large-scale map to show everything at a high level and then individual finer-scale maps to handle the individual actions.

[Blue]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I just like the change because now maps look a little more "real".

 

If I made a living room before (let's say 18ft by 21ft; round that to 6m by 7m, or 3 hexes by 3.5 hexes), before I'd draw a room on hex paper then I'd drop miniatures in there an furniture and pretty soon you'd have just a few people in there. All this space (in theory) and yet a couple of heroes make it so no one can move around. With the change to Meters, I now draw my map in 6m by 7m and becuase people only occupy 1m rather than 2m, it's all looking a little more realistic.

[Gideon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I think you're still utterly and completely failing to actually think this through.

 

How do you measure turn mode? The same way you always did. Use a hex map if that floats your boat. Or just eyeball it. "That's about 60 degrees -- 1/6 of a circle" is just as valid a measurement as hex facings or anything else you care to come up with. You're creating hard rules in your head that you dare not violate lest you somehow make things unrealistic/unbalanced....when it's those very "hard rules" that you're creating that's doing the unbalancing and making things unrealistic.

 

Why would you EVER restrict an arbitrary unit of measurement (a hex) to contain only one character/person? What happens if your map is on a grand scale (say, the entire US)? Only one person can fit in a given hex....making the total population of the US about 2500 people (assuming a 50x50 hex map). That's....sad.

 

Why would you round somebody's movement (or AOE) to fit on your arbitrary hex? "Each hex on this map is 10m. My character has 25m of Flight, so I'll move 3 hexes." No. Your character has 25m of Flight. You'll move 25m. On the map, that will be approx. 2 1/2 hexes. If this bugs you from some OCD perspective and you simply MUST put characters in the center of each arbitrary hex on the map, then by all means, go ahead....and keep track of their movement, either going up or down a hex as appropriate to even things out.

 

Rounding rules affect character creation. They have absolutely nothing to do with units of measurement on a map. Stop confusing yourself.

 

Just use a map. If you want to have a map that shows a large area and still deal on a fine level of detail when needed, then do what has been suggested above -- which just happens to be the way things work in the real world (take street maps, for example): You have the large-scale map to show everything at a high level and then individual finer-scale maps to handle the individual actions.

I'm sorry, but you missed my point entirely. I never said that one person must occupy a whole hex. I said: "how do you represent more than one person occupying a single hex when using a map with 1 inch hexes."

 

Oh, and I arbitrarily used the term "hex" because I thought it would be easier to understand and less wordy that "map space". I don't care if your map uses squares/ pentagons/ hexagons/ nonagons/ triangles/ circles/ heptagrams/ trapezoids/ or irregular quadrilaterals. I was trying to make my arguments simpler to understand. Sorry.

[Gideon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

There is something else here that people seem to have a misconception about. Hexes were meant for combat. Not for anything else. And they were two meters across, because a person's wing-span is aproximately teh same as his height (say about 5'8"). If you convert that to metric its simply easier to round up to 2 meters (technically for this purpose, 1 meter is to small).

 

Why does your wing-span matter? Because when in combat, people tend to take up about that much room when you factor in ducking/ dodging/ weaving/ and generally trying to not get yourself hit (AKA: Defensive Combat Value).

 

Or perhaps it matters because your spider-man, and you like to stand crouched down with your legs in an almost full split, or your Wolverine and you like to slash at people on either side of you with your arms fully extended.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Gideon, you were okay when one "hex" equalled 2 meters, weren't you? Okay, so try this. You personally always use 2 meters = 1 hex on your battle maps in your games.

Oh my god, a solution! That was so hard! Why didn't anyone say that back on page one?...oh, wait...

 

EDIT: Okay, sorry for that outburst, but this converation has gone beyond the realm of ridiculous.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I, too, find it head-scratchingly confusing as to why anyone would get upset about this change.

 

It doesn't require a new map scale. It doesn't require a switch to one-meter hexes.

 

The only change that is required by 6e rules compliance is . . . how you record things on the character sheet; instead of "20 inches" of Flight, you now write "40 meters".

 

That makes more sense to me.

 

If the math required to divide meters by two when you're using two-meter hexes is too hard for you, Hero may not be the game for you.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

I ran without hexes. It went perfectly fine. For my straightedge, I marked 1/2" increments on the edge of a piece of US letter sized paper, then tore the edge off. Turn modes were eyeballed, and didn't really matter much as it was Fantasy Hero. I think maybe twice it might have mattered (both times one character wanted to move around another) and I just said okay, you can move around them. I kept it at 1 inch on the map equals 2 meters out of habit, so that each of my 1/2" increments was 1 meter, but solely out of habit; there was no grid-based anything. Characters with 15 meter full moves made 7.5 meter half-moves.

 

Oh, and for the record? A character with 35 meters of movement, on, for instance, a map with 5 meter hexes, would full-move 7 hexes. Even in 5E and prior, when a character bought, say, 15" of movement, that was still 30 meters, and if it were on a hex grid where 1 hex equals 16 meters (and, me being a Robot Warriors player, that actually happened occasionally) that would be a 2 hex full move. I couldn't, and still can't, bring myself to get broken up over the missing 2 meters.

 

I had also thought about using a 1/2" equilateral triangle grid, but after running a combat without a grid I see no need. It seems to me that the only thing a grid does is make it slightly easier to count movement and angles. There's no reason besides convenience to tie a grid space to 2 meters, except that previous editions of the game used that scale, and based all measurements of distance around the grid space. (For that matter, radius measurements were broken when measuring by hexes; what's the diameter of an Area Of Effect: 2 hex radius? 3 hexes. Oops?)

 

It seems to me the reason people are getting het up over the topic is that people are starting to make it personal. When people start making statements like "The way you do it...," "So-and-so is right and you're wrong," "You fail to understand..." and so forth, the discussion ceases being about the topic and starts being about the people. And it also stops being about the rationality of one particular "side" or the other, and starts being about defending a side.

 

I'll close with something I read on, of all places, RPG.net: "It never ceases to amaze me how bent out of shape adults can get over the best way to play make believe."

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

So I am wondering how you determine a 60-degree turn when not using a hex map. Do you need a protractor?

 

I acquired a set of turn-mode gauges with a set of miniatures. I scanned them in, but at some point some of the images became corrupted.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Come to think of it, I was never completely happy with rounding up a half-move to the nearest game "inch." It always felt like people with odd-numbered inches of movement were getting an unfair "munchkinny" advantage. I think I'm more comfortable with the grainier meter scale.

[Gideon]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Gideon, you were okay when one "hex" equalled 2 meters, weren't you? Okay, so try this. You personally always use 2 meters = 1 hex on your battle maps in your games.

Oh my god, a solution! That was so hard! Why didn't anyone say that back on page one?...oh, wait...

 

EDIT: Okay, sorry for that outburst, but this converation has gone beyond the realm of ridiculous.

Um, your opinion of the ridiculousness of this thread is meaningless to me. I have been trying to keep calm while posting, and refrain from insulting people. Even with your removal of your "outburst" I will say I am still not happy with the attitude you have been showing towards me.

 

As far as your "solution", thats all nice and good. I probably will keep my games using hex maps with a 2m:1h scale. But if that was all there was to this topic for me I would have posted so and left it at that.

 

I posted all of those questions because I want to understand why my group has been having issues with scaling, and other groups haven't. I am actually interested in getting actual answers to the questions I put forth (as opposed to your :face palm:). If it can't happen, then it can't happen. But you seem to believe that I am an unreasonable stick-in-the-mud person who can't accept differing opinions or suggestions. Thats just not true.

 

If someone could give me answers I understand better, perhaps I might actually start using a varied scale for combat. Wow, isn't that an interesting prospect. Right now, I am simply having trouble with certain aspects of scaling combat. Sorry, but sometimes people have differing experiences with material and discussing it helps figure out shy

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Here's a question, going back to the stadium - you pointed out it only fits on a standard map at 1:4, so you only ever drew half a stadium under prev editions which are 1:2? Resulting in the same problem you have now.

 

Also, did you never once find the need to adjust the scaling previously? You always, no matter what, used 1h=2m and never changed it?

 

If so, why don't you just do the same thing in 6th? We do in our weekly champions game, the GM likes the scale so he kept it.

 

Again, for at least the third time this thread, the only thing that has really changed is that you write down meters of movement instead of "inches" for example knockback is still in 2meter increments.

 

AoE is unchanged, 8m AoE is 8m at any scale the only issue arises if you never let more than on person occupy a hex, and we've allowed 2-3 normal sized people be in the same hex for years. Though sometimes that's a pile if you go over two. Example: we assumed two people in a Grab are in thw same hex.

 

Conclusion: the only change really made here is notation.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

 

Someone previously mentioned Turn Modes, and this brought a question to my mind.

 

Let's say we have essentially the same hero in 5th and 6th Edition. He has Flight (20" in 5th, 40m in 6th), plus three levels in Flight.

 

In 5th, his normal Turn Mode would be 4" (20" / 5), but he can use those three levels to bring it down to 1" (or 2m). The guy turns on a dime.

In 6th, his normal Turn Mode would be 8m (40m / 5), but he can use those three levels to bring it down to 5m. He still turns sharper than normal, but no longer on a dime. More like a quarter.

 

Am I doing this wrong?