zslane Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm not sure it matters how Wally is related to Iris except perhaps in the minds of soap opera fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm not sure it matters how Wally is related to Iris except perhaps in the minds of soap opera fans. Or comic book fans. Most superhero comics are like soap operas for males. If you don't believe me, look at Spider-Man's 40-something year history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I guess I just don't see the superhero-oriented dramatic potential in making Wally the previously-unknown brother of Iris as opposed to her previously-unmentioned cousin. Now, if she was a supervillain and Wally was a superhero, then I'd see the point of creating the stronger sibling bond. As it stands, I fail to see how the geneological choice here makes any interesting dramatic difference whatsoever. Speaking of characters that aren't supervillains but maybe ought to be: am I the only one who now realizes that if Caitlin Snow is going to become Killer Frost that it most likely won't be our Caitlin Snow from Earth Prime, but a Caitlin Snow from one of the other 52 realities? Which means anyone sitting around waiting for Caitlin Prime to have some sort of tragic, emotionally wrought "moment" that leads her down the path towards supervillainy is probably going to be waiting forever. BoloOfEarth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I guess I just don't see the superhero-oriented dramatic potential All of the drama doesn't have to be superhero-oriented. I think they're doing it to create more character drama for Iris. I'm not sure where they're going this season with the character, but this seems like an attempt to get viewers more invested in her. She didn't make a great impression on a lot of people in the first season. (The character, not the actress.) I'm not sure it's the best call, either, but I'm guessing that's part of their reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I guess I just don't see the superhero-oriented dramatic potential in making Wally the previously-unknown brother of Iris as opposed to her previously-unmentioned cousin. Now, if she was a supervillain and Wally was a superhero, then I'd see the point of creating the stronger sibling bond. As it stands, I fail to see how the geneological choice here makes any interesting dramatic difference whatsoever. Speaking of characters that aren't supervillains but maybe ought to be: am I the only one who now realizes that if Caitlin Snow is going to become Killer Frost that it most likely won't be our Caitlin Snow from Earth Prime, but a Caitlin Snow from one of the other 52 realities? Which means anyone sitting around waiting for Caitlin Prime to have some sort of tragic, emotionally wrought "moment" that leads her down the path towards supervillainy is probably going to be waiting forever. Perhaps you were thinking of Malcolm Thawne? Or were you thinking of Gabriel Summers. Mary Batson? That said, it's a long running trope of superhero comics and soap operas alike and I wish it would stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Here are some more: Thomas Wayne Jr. (not Owlman) Orm Curry/Marius Nubia Anybody who wants to hang out at TV Tropes could probably find dozens more. The point is it's a kinda stupid trope. Although I am curious to see what the showrunners do with it. BTW, Comics Alliance (I think) was speculating that Zoom might be the Wally West of Earth 2. That would take care of the whole "long lost brother is a villain" trope. Kinda sorta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankL Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Speaking of characters that aren't supervillains but maybe ought to be: am I the only one who now realizes that if Caitlin Snow is going to become Killer Frost that it most likely won't be our Caitlin Snow from Earth Prime, but a Caitlin Snow from one of the other 52 realities? I had that flash when watching the latest episode. I'm not curious about Wells again. I'm still getting the evil vibe from him, but maybe he's not Zoom. Then again, he could be just setting everyone up for a betrayal. The Ferengi say the sharper the smile, the sharper the knife. There's a Pacific/Indian ocean tribe that used to revere traitors who first "fattened" their victims with friendship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Complete aside: I just watched most of the current season of the Awesomes on Hulu (if you're not familiar, it's an animated superhero show that's mostly parody but has some great characters), and they briefly introduced a villain named Backstory. His hook was that he has the most torturous, convoluted backstory. I don't think they ever did finish telling it. IMO a great way of poking fun at that trope. Props to zslane for his theory on Caitlin Snow / Killer Frost. I was not looking forward to her turning into Killer Frost because I don't want her to stop working with The Flash, Cisco, et al. But an other-world version of Caitlin as Killer Frost would be acceptable to me. (And if losing Ronnie a second time isn't enough of a tragic, emotionally-wrought "moment" to totally rock her world, I don't know what one is.) bigbywolfe and Hermit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Caitlin's one of the more likable characters on the show to me, so it'd be sad to see her go Killer Frost on us. I'd also prefer it to be handled with an alternate universe version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Okay, the reveal with Dr. Light was interesting, and I kept thinking "Somewhere a fan of Wally West as Flash's head has exploded... again." but Earth 2 Linda Park being an Evil Dr. Light didn't bother me because this is clearly it's own take on the mythos. I wasn't crazy about Jay's apparent departure. It just rang a bit empty, and didn't make him look very good imo. Poor Garrick took some hits in more ways than one. I did laugh my ass off at Cisco's line to Earth 2 Dr. Wells "You know, our Dr. Wells may have been evil, but you're just a diiiiiiiiick." Cisco getting a date was awesome. Then I realized who it was with and I pumped my fist into the air! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankL Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Cisco getting a date was awesome. Then I realized who it was with and I pumped my fist into the air! Had to look that up to see who. Now the humor of his denial being a meta to her is even better. Isn't there a trope about two supers out on a date trying to keep their secrets from each other and circumstances forcing them to find out/reveal? Is Cisco going to be the babe magnet of the show? First Golden Glider and now Hawkgirl. He's already the fanboy everyman. I didn't like Jay leaving either. He doesn't think Barry is ready so he's out? I'm very curious about the statement from Dr. Light that she can't live on Earth 1 unless she kills her double or Barry. Why kill the double? Well, the writers do a good job of leaving mysteries for later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 You can't steal an identity with the other person running around like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Cisco's line gave me a great chuckle to be honest. I was quite tempted to bring that up in a review of the episode but I ended up sleeping soon after watching it. Personally I wasn't a fan of Dr. Light in this. I guess the Arena games has made me rather sympathetic to Kimiyo Hoshi as Dr. Light. And given the shows strong use of scientifically minded folk, I guess part of me was thinking that if a Dr. Light was introduced it would be that version. But C'est la vie. Kimiyo is far from the go to person for Dr. Lights. The new and rough Dr. Wells is a nice change of pace. I do like the way he essentially solves a lot of the self generate conflicts in the scooby gang. I also am interested to see how his story line progresses. I guess we can almost assume that he is not a bad guy (maybe not a good guy, either). And the conversations in the most recent episodes also confirmed something I was curious about from season 1: did they ever refer to Evil Wells as Zoom. And the answer seems to be no (or at least a retconnned "no") given how they still don't recognize the Zoom name as a moniker for Thawne but do refer to him as "Reverse Flash" consistently. This does open up a lot of possibilities for E-2 Zoom. I am curious where they take this. I imagine that Evil Dr. Wells, Reverse Flash, will still make an appearance but that it will come along more with the Rip Hunter: Legends of Tomorrow storylines. I am still enjoying the show and I thought there was some great acting, character development, and foreshadowing of future events. The only things I really had wanted to complain about were: why did Dr. Light try to kill her E-1 self? Given that Barry can travel far faster than Dr. Light can react why did he need to create after images in the first place? And lastly, what was up with Jay? I can kind of understand his story-arc and motivations but his final actions seemed a bit forced at best. But at least we got to see him and the dick battle it out a bit. ^^ Foreign Orchid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I didn't catch onto who that girl Cisco was hooking up with was. Cool little bit of info. I did find it strange how they resolved that but now I guess it makes a bit more sense. I just it would be a normal largely off screen or short term thing. Foreign Orchid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Had to look that up to see who. Now the humor of his denial being a meta to her is even better. Isn't there a trope about two supers out on a date trying to keep their secrets from each other and circumstances forcing them to find out/reveal? Is Cisco going to be the babe magnet of the show? First Golden Glider and now Hawkgirl. He's already the fanboy everyman. I didn't like Jay leaving either. He doesn't think Barry is ready so he's out? I'm very curious about the statement from Dr. Light that she can't live on Earth 1 unless she kills her double or Barry. Why kill the double? Well, the writers do a good job of leaving mysteries for later. The idea of Cisco managing to charm the meta ladies around him amuses me terribly. Of course, with Lisa Snart, the most he's gotten is a kiss but for a true hero such as Cisco, that is reward enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Personally I wasn't a fan of Dr. Light in this. I guess the Arena games has made me rather sympathetic to Kimiyo Hoshi as Dr. Light. And given the shows strong use of scientifically minded folk, I guess part of me was thinking that if a Dr. Light was introduced it would be that version. But C'est la vie. Kimiyo is far from the go to person for Dr. Lights. It always sucks when one of the characters you like gets bypassed, but depending on how many seasons this show lasts, we may yet see Kimiyo get introduced and take up the mantle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankL Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Personally I wasn't a fan of Dr. Light in this. I guess the Arena games has made me rather sympathetic to Kimiyo Hoshi as Dr. Light. And given the shows strong use of scientifically minded folk, I guess part of me was thinking that if a Dr. Light was introduced it would be that version. But C'est la vie. Kimiyo is far from the go to person for Dr. Lights. As soon as they named Dr. Light as the villain, I thought, "Foreign Orchid is going to be so disappointed!" Also like the name "Breachers." I didn't hear anyone use it before Cisco, and he's the one to come up with good names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Dr. Light exemplifies a problem that occurs in nearly every superhero show ever created, namely that the heroes and villains are dumber than the average Champions player in terms of using their powers. When faced with a Speedster (or anyone with an insanely high DEX), you use mental powers or AoEs. That's just Superpowers 101. Dr. Light has AoE attacks but she only used them once against Barry. And she wasted way too many Phases and way too much END direct-firing at his speed mirages when she should have just been knocking him on his butt with an AoE and then toasting him with direct shots while he was Stunned. But she's like every other superpowered character on tv and fights with the imagination of a tv writer rather than a Superhero RPG player. I've been living with that disappointment for 30 years and it never fails to suck. I didn't know that barista chick was going to be Hawkgirl, but in any event I wasn't thinking, wow! I'd love to see more of her on a show! I don't think I'm going to even bother with Legends of Tomorrow given how the only thing in it I don't already hate (from what little I know about it) is Caty Lotz and she's just not enough to make me put up with everything else about it. I like that this new Harrison Wells is unlikeable because it creates an interesting dramatic tension, not just with the characters, but within us as viewers. It would have been too easy to make this version charming and likeable and trustworthy, but this is more interesting. He isn't evil but he's unpleasant and arrogant and unlikeable, which is completely different. But we're conditioned to behave the same way around either type of person which is sort of fascinating to me. And I agree with Rob Bricken that there is way more chemistry between Barry and Patty than between Barry and Iris. But I think that's for two reasons: 1. We get to see their relationship grow from the start rather than it being pre-established and something we're just expected to accept apriori, and 2. Patty is way more into Barry than Iris is/ever was and she can't hide it, which is both adorable and refreshing. The only part I found annoying was the extent to which Barry avoided her until now. I like Cisco. I do. But pairing him up with Lisa Snart or future Hawkgirl doesn't really work for me. He needs his Simmons, if you know what I mean. Neither of those two women are Simmons to his Fitz. As for Zoom, I'm sure they are going to try and surprise us with who from Earth-2 is under that mask, but I'd rather not know. I'd rather he be a mysterious villain that continues to torment and plague Barry forever, than an excuse for one season of drama concluded with a shocking reveal and two-episode defeat. Andrew_A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Zoom sounds like he's voiced by actor Tony Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Indeed, he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I like Cisco. I do. But pairing him up with Lisa Snart or future Hawkgirl doesn't really work for me. He needs his Simmons, if you know what I mean. Neither of those two women are Simmons to his Fitz. He's young, so having a few not as serious relationships fits. Perhaps after a while, they'll find him someone that has a few of the better qualities of the girls that he's dated. I don't know enough about the comic version to know if there's a canonical candidate, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 He's young, so having a few not as serious relationships fits. Perhaps after a while, they'll find him someone that has a few of the better qualities of the girls that he's dated. I don't know enough about the comic version to know if there's a canonical candidate, though. Also, remember that "Kendra" isn't staying. As soon as we figure out what her deal is, she's going to be shuffled off to Legends of Tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Zoom sounds like he's voiced by actor Tony Todd. Yeah, it's Todd. This is why Comics Alliance (I think?) was speculating that Zoom might be the Earth 2 Wally West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 He's young, so having a few not as serious relationships fits. Perhaps after a while, they'll find him someone that has a few of the better qualities of the girls that he's dated. I don't know enough about the comic version to know if there's a canonical candidate, though. In the latest 52 version solo series, Vibe ended up in a romantic relationship sort of with the Nu52 version of Gypsy... It was an excellent revamp, and Sterling Gates was knocking it out of the park...but alas, it just didn't get the readership it needed to continue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Also, remember that "Kendra" isn't staying. As soon as we figure out what her deal is, she's going to be shuffled off to Legends of Tomorrow. Both Flash and Green Arrow are going to be in Legends of Tomorrow and will be back on their own shows afterward. Why should Kendra disappear after Legends of Tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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