The Flash

[Starlord]

Soon he will meet his new buddy, Solovar, and everything will be alright.

[Hermit]

Darn dirty apes!

[薔薇語]

re: Grodd's mind control.

 

If they don't solve for it in some way there would be no stopping him in continuity yet. He would just be a big dark game over button. But you also over estimate his depowering. Cant he still push it so that The Flash and others are mentally hurt, just not MC? Or am I misremembering. Besides, they cant have enough to save a crowd of people and they dont magically make him physically weaker. Indeed, The Flash struggles to touch Grogg even while protected.

 

Soar.

[Pattern Ghost]

Yeah, he can still give a mean mental sucker punch, followed by a physical one, to characters wearing the devices. And as you said, they can't protect all of the innocent bystanders from Grodd's MC anyway. As Grodd grows in intellect, that last bit may be a really huge problem in the future. So, yeah, he's pretty well-balanced.

[Bazza]

Big genetically super-intelligent ape...big whoop. #nonplussed.

[zslane]

Those earbuds must function more like personal shields in Dune than classic Mental Defense in the HERO System. Subtle mental attacks (telepathy) get through, but powerful stuff (like mind control) does not. Yes, I realize that this stuff works purely according to the needs of the plot, but just once I'd like to watch a superhero show that took the same care towards having powers "work" according to a consistent system that the designers of Champions did. I'm more tired of the "we're just making this s**t up as we go," approach to tv writing than I can possibly express.

[Pattern Ghost]

You don't need to apply RPG rules in order to achieve internal consistency . . . and you shouldn't. The earbuds work consistently, and there has been no making stuff up as you go along with them. They prevent mind control, but Grodd can still get the portion of his attack that triggers negative and painful memories through. The earbuds are simply not 100% effective.

 

Further, the way the earbuds are portrayed serves the story perfectly. First off, Grodd's mind control is a very credible threat He initially dominates (no pun intended) the heroes in early encounters. Then, Cisco makes the earbuds, and imperfect solution that's entirely consistent with his past solutions of being both a technology-based solution and an imperfect one. That quality of being imperfect is important, because it allows one of Grodd's signature powers to continue to be a threat. It's all internally consistent and allows for dramatic tension. I see no downsides to this approach.

[zslane]

Okay, I guess the logic implied is this: the earbuds provide a filter that kills most of the potency of Grodd's mental assaults, and what little leaks through is merely strong enough to carry conversational and emotional data. Still, I think if I was playing a mentalist and had spent 60 points on Mind Control only to find that the only villain team in the game had just been equipped with an IIF gadget providing enough Mental Defense to make my Mind Control mostly worthless, I'd be pretty pissed.

 

I think the writers simply didn't know any other way of dealing with Grodd's mental powers. So they simply took it off his character sheet, so to speak, and replaced it with minimal Telepathy and a tiny Ego Attack. Being able to mind control normals is not much compensation when you will inevitably have to face your heroic nemesis mano-e-mano in Act III of every episode you're in. I guess we're going to see Grodd trade in his Mind Control for 60+ points of intelligent ape Followers.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think if I was playing a mentalist and had spent 60 points on Mind Control only to find that the only villain team in the game had just been equipped with an IIF gadget providing enough Mental Defense to make my Mind Control mostly worthless, I'd be pretty pissed.

 

Grodd is an NPC. The correct analogy would be, if I were GMing and a villain had a power that the team couldn't deal with, I'd need to tone it down a bit. So, the GM allows the players to create flawed gadgets that provide some MD.

[zslane]

"Some MD". Heh. It's enough to make Grodd's Mind Control useless. It's not like you see Flash being swayed by more subtle commands, as though Grodd was having to aim for a lower tier of control in order to make it "stick". In a good Champions game, the heroes might get enough MD to keep that +20 or +30 degree of effect from ruining their chances of fighting effectively, but the villain would then have to get creative with the weaker level of Mind Control he still has. But Grodd poses no mental threat whatsoever. At most you see Flash wincing as if he were merely smelling Grodd's bad breath, not losing any sort of control over his faculties.

[Hyper-Man]

We've known this for quite some time, I believe.

 

And it's not very surprising. Studios don't like "diluting" their movie franchises by putting their key characters in tv shows. You get the occasional guest appearance (Highlander, Agents of SHIELD), but Warner Brothers and DC have made it clear, time and time again, that they do not want their tv and movie franchises to share actors, much less an entire universe.

 

Marvel will continue to be alone in taking all the chances and enjoying all the benefits of having a shared universe across multiple entertainment formats.

 

Actually, the TV show Unlimited Limitless takes place in the same universe as the movie of the same name.  The star of the movie is one of the producers of the TV show and has made cameo appearances in 2 episodes so far.

[Pattern Ghost]

"Some MD". Heh. It's enough to make Grodd's Mind Control useless. It's not like you see Flash being swayed by more subtle commands, as though Grodd was having to aim for a lower tier of control in order to make it "stick". In a good Champions game, the heroes might get enough MD to keep that +20 or +30 degree of effect from ruining their chances of fighting effectively, but the villain would then have to get creative with the weaker level of Mind Control he still has. But Grodd poses no mental threat whatsoever. At most you see Flash wincing as if he were merely smelling Grodd's bad breath, not losing any sort of control over his faculties.

 

Sounds like you're still expecting writers of fiction to adhere to RPG rules. If you stop doing that and simply check to see that the fiction is internally consistent with itself instead of imposing constraints based on builds you're working out in your head, you'd probably enjoy the shows better. (Though not Supergirl. It's pretty bad.) Seriously, you couldn't even see that Grodd was the NPC in the first analogy, so maybe it's best not to mix genres up?

[Ternaugh]

Actually, the TV show Unlimited takes place in the same universe as the movie of the same name.  The star of the movie is one of the producers of the TV show and has made cameo appearances in 2 episodes so far.

 

I think that you mean, "Limitless".

 

Their Ferris Bueller episode was a lot of fun.

[Starlord]

I was thinking more along the lines, Champions-wise, that both Flash and Grodd are very inexperienced with very low point totals.  Any number of reasons could explain his power problems.

[薔薇語]

Re: Grodd's Mental attack

 

It makes perfect cinematic sense for Grodd to use a mind control attack and when he realize it doesn't work for him to overdo it. This overdoing of his MC is just the special effect of his Mental Blast. Why is that a difficult concept to grasp in a cinematic and champion's sense?

 

Grodd attempts a MC or Telepathy. When he sees he doesn't achieve his desired effects, he simply goes for a Mind Blast. There, it is now mechanically consistent with HERO system.

 

Option two: the Mental Defense is bought perhaps with "only versus Mind Control and Telepathy" and certainly a severe side effect "Mind Control and Telepathy DCs used on this subject are transferred into DCs of Mind Blast" or other such wording to produce a mentally damaging effect upon use of the Mental Defense power. There, it is now mechanically consistent with HERO system.

 

So, we can show that the cinematic experience we enjoyed is consistent with HERO system rules. This is true even though it was not developed with the intent of being consistent with the HERO system rules. It is like getting upset that The Flash isn't consistent with DnD or Vampire: The Masquerade. It has no need to be. It isn't part of those products. And if it just happens to be, that is a weird coincidence. What matters more is that it is internally consistent. For example, I do not care if HERO system is consistent with DnD, I only care that the rules of HERO system are compatible and consistent with the rules of HERO system.

 

Soar.

[bubba smith]

.

 

My gripe about 'superhero tv shows' is they often seem embarrassed to BE about superheroes. They might have costumes, but no powers, or powers, and no costumes. Or they'd have 'realistic' villains. Not to say those don't have their place, there are excellent shows without one or the other, but here we have a show that out of the gate has it all, or at least 90% of it.

 

This is not a perfect pilot, but it is an incredibly promsing one.

true enough

[zslane]

As long as superhero tv shows continue to be written to be profoundly dumber than the Champions campaigns I've played in, I will continue to use Champions as a measuring stick for how to properly handle superpowers in a fictive form.

 

Now maybe there is a way to write up tv's Grodd so that his powers make sense to me (as a Champions player). However, something about the team's gadgeteer being able to hand out an IIF device that completely neutralizes a major villain's defining power in every encounter strikes me as either poor writing or poor GMing, depending on the context. The GMs I played with would never have allowed those earbuds to have 100% effectiveness on the next encounter, either by upping Grodd's Mind Control or providing the means by which Grodd could counter the defense, at least enough to make his Mind Control interesting (and useful) again, even if not at complete effectiveness. Again, if it's not something I'd want to see happen in a Champions game, it's not something I'd want to see on tv either. Tv writers shouldn't be worse at this than Champions GMs. Not given how much money is at stake.

[Starlord]

As long as superhero tv shows continue to be written to be profoundly dumber than the Champions campaigns I've played in, I will continue to use Champions as a measuring stick for how to properly handle superpowers in a fictive form.

 

Now maybe there is a way to write up tv's Grodd so that his powers make sense to me (as a Champions player). However, something about the team's gadgeteer being able to hand out an IIF device that completely neutralizes a major villain's defining power in every encounter strikes me as either poor writing or poor GMing, depending on the context. The GMs I played with would never have allowed those earbuds to have 100% effectiveness on the next encounter, either by upping Grodd's Mind Control or providing the means by which Grodd could counter the defense, at least enough to make his Mind Control interesting (and useful) again, even if not at complete effectiveness. Again, if it's not something I'd want to see happen in a Champions game, it's not something I'd want to see on tv either. Tv writers shouldn't be worse at this than Champions GMs. Not given how much money is at stake.

 

Well, I would think your GM would worry about whether or not Grodd was an effective villain for Flash.  IMO, Grodd at his current point level is still an excellent rival for a VERY inexperienced Flash character.

[薔薇語]

As long as superhero tv shows continue to be written to be profoundly dumber than the Champions campaigns I've played in, I will continue to use Champions as a measuring stick for how to properly handle superpowers in a fictive form.

Why is Champions used as a measuring stick in the first place? You realize that they are fundementally different products. If not, why not complain that Friends and HERO are not compatible. Or how Pixels and HERO are not compatible. You are stating that they aren't compatible (A point which I think I did a good job at refuting) without addressing the greater point of "why even compare the completely distinct products?" That is like:

 

A - "The Great Spaghetti monster in space is real!"

B - "Why do you think that?"

A - "Because I think The Great Spaghetti monster in space is real!!"

B - "Why?"

A - "Because..."

 

At some point you need to actually address the basic question that is being asked: why compare HERO system to The Flash? Would it be equally okay to compare Monsters and Masterminds? How about Gurps? Would DnD Modern be okay? BESM? Fate? Are all of them reasonable? What do we do when BESM can account for something but DnD can't?

 

Now maybe there is a way to write up tv's Grodd so that his powers make sense to me (as a Champions player). However, something about the team's gadgeteer being able to hand out an IIF device that completely neutralizes a major villain's defining power in every encounter strikes me as either poor writing or poor GMing, depending on the context. The GMs I played with would never have allowed those earbuds to have 100% effectiveness on the next encounter, either by upping Grodd's Mind Control or providing the means by which Grodd could counter the defense, at least enough to make his Mind Control interesting (and useful) again, even if not at complete effectiveness. Again, if it's not something I'd want to see happen in a Champions game, it's not something I'd want to see on tv either. Tv writers shouldn't be worse at this than Champions GMs. Not given how much money is at stake.

 

Why do you assume Grodd will never be able to use his MC? He has already shown that he can. The whole set up for that episode was him getting away with his MC. Even against a member of the team.

 

Cisco created a device to stop his MC but can't give an absolute protection against mental blasts, disorientation, and giant ape fists. So Grodd is still a rival. He is just one that doesn't have an "Auto-win" vs the Hero. And to put this in HERO terms for you since you seem to insist on it: Any GM who builds an NPC with an Auto-win and doesn't allow the PCs to negate that is a terrible GM. Any villain that can out power my Character Physically, Mentally, and is prevented from being neutered is a villain that is wholly uninteresting and the GM is terrible for using it. Are you suggesting that we should have terrible GMs in Champions? ^-^;

 

Lets also address the fact that your point is stupid - yes, absolutely stupid. In the first encounter with the Mental Defense device, the Flash gets knocked about and the device ends up malfunctioning. Thus, his ability to strictly resit Grodd is predicated on him not taking a big hit to the face. And Grodd, while not as fast as The Flash is still able to anticipate his movements to a degree and beat the ever living crap out of him - thus making him vulnerable to the most Game-Overy attack available: a full on Mental Domination via Mind Control.

 

Lastly, lets address your complete disregard for the source material: Heroes always find ways to narrowly beat out their opponents. It is not an exception to the rule that a Hero with some level of gadgetry or with helpers with some level of gadgetry manage to build a device to stop an opponent. No, it is not the exception; indeed, it is quite the opposite. How many times has Tony Stark made adjustments to his suit to defeat foes? How many times has Batman just remembered to bring McGruffin X in his utility belt in order to win? How many times has Ant-Man or Mr. Fantastic create some program or device to win a battle or find a baddy? These are not uncommon. These are expected. If Cisco, Kaitlin, Wells, and Barry were not doing this we would all call them idiots for not exploiting their best tools. And for someone who has complained so strongly that these characters suffer from Dumb Streaks to be demanding that they suffer from Genre destroying dumb streaks is peculiar at best.

 

I get it. Flash isn't doing exactly what you would do if you were the Flash. Too bad. Get over it. But making up excuses to be salty at a show is just mind boggling. And if you are really struggling to watch a show, just quit. I made my two (three?) complaint posts about Supergirl in the Supergirl thread and ended it there. There are people in that thread who like the show. They don't need me going in there explaining and complaining about how terrible a show that is every week. And quite frankly, I don't need that. It is just best to accept such as the way of the world and move onto greener pastures that make you happy.

 

Soar.

 

PS: We have also given a rather clear and obvious work around for Grodd's MC power. You can't protect everyone all the time from Grodd. And it only takes one civilian being captured to rendered The Flash incapable of something.

[Andrew_A]

If you want to see really well done mind control, watch Jessica Jones. I'm on the seventh episode and David Tennant is creepy as hell.

[Andrew_A]

Why is Champions used as a measuring stick in the first place? You realize that they are fundementally different products. If not, why not complain that Friends and HERO are not compatible. Or how Pixels and HERO are not compatible. You are stating that they aren't compatible (A point which I think I did a good job at refuting) without addressing the greater point of "why even compare the completely distinct products?" That is like:

 

A - "The Great Spaghetti monster in space is real!"

B - "Why do you think that?"

A - "Because I think The Great Spaghetti monster in space is real!!"

B - "Why?"

A - "Because..."

 

At some point you need to actually address the basic question that is being asked: why compare HERO system to The Flash? Would it be equally okay to compare Monsters and Masterminds? How about Gurps? Would DnD Modern be okay? BESM? Fate? Are all of them reasonable? What do we do when BESM can account for something but DnD can't?

 

 

Why do you assume Grodd will never be able to use his MC? He has already shown that he can. The whole set up for that episode was him getting away with his MC. Even against a member of the team.

 

Cisco created a device to stop his MC but can't give an absolute protection against mental blasts, disorientation, and giant ape fists. So Grodd is still a rival. He is just one that doesn't have an "Auto-win" vs the Hero. And to put this in HERO terms for you since you seem to insist on it: Any GM who builds an NPC with an Auto-win and doesn't allow the PCs to negate that is a terrible GM. Any villain that can out power my Character Physically, Mentally, and is prevented from being neutered is a villain that is wholly uninteresting and the GM is terrible for using it. Are you suggesting that we should have terrible GMs in Champions? ^-^;

 

Lets also address the fact that your point is stupid - yes, absolutely stupid. In the first encounter with the Mental Defense device, the Flash gets knocked about and the device ends up malfunctioning. Thus, his ability to strictly resit Grodd is predicated on him not taking a big hit to the face. And Grodd, while not as fast as The Flash is still able to anticipate his movements to a degree and beat the ever living crap out of him - thus making him vulnerable to the most Game-Overy attack available: a full on Mental Domination via Mind Control.

 

Lastly, lets address your complete disregard for the source material: Heroes always find ways to narrowly beat out their opponents. It is not an exception to the rule that a Hero with some level of gadgetry or with helpers with some level of gadgetry manage to build a device to stop an opponent. No, it is not the exception; indeed, it is quite the opposite. How many times has Tony Stark made adjustments to his suit to defeat foes? How many times has Batman just remembered to bring McGruffin X in his utility belt in order to win? How many times has Ant-Man or Mr. Fantastic create some program or device to win a battle or find a baddy? These are not uncommon. These are expected. If Cisco, Kaitlin, Wells, and Barry were not doing this we would all call them idiots for not exploiting their best tools. And for someone who has complained so strongly that these characters suffer from Dumb Streaks to be demanding that they suffer from Genre destroying dumb streaks is peculiar at best.

 

I get it. Flash isn't doing exactly what you would do if you were the Flash. Too bad. Get over it. But making up excuses to be salty at a show is just mind boggling. And if you are really struggling to watch a show, just quit. I made my two (three?) complaint posts about Supergirl in the Supergirl thread and ended it there. There are people in that thread who like the show. They don't need me going in there explaining and complaining about how terrible a show that is every week. And quite frankly, I don't need that. It is just best to accept such as the way of the world and move onto greener pastures that make you happy.

 

Soar.

 

PS: We have also given a rather clear and obvious work around for Grodd's MC power. You can't protect everyone all the time from Grodd. And it only takes one civilian being captured to rendered The Flash incapable of something.

 

I agree with you. If you don't like something, don't watch it. I didn't like season 1 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., so I stopped watching. I didn't like season 1, and most of season 2, of Arrow, so I stopped. Life's too short to indulge in something you hate. Complain if it makes you feel better, there might be some valid criticisms, but don't waste time watching crap.

 

BTW, I started watching Arrow again and it's better than before. I love both Flash and Supergirl and I'm debating whether or not to watch AoS again. You'd have to waterboard me before I'd ever watch Daredevil or House of Cards again.

 

Actually, no. Waterboarding might be preferable. More uplifting.

[Bazza]

I agree with you. If you don't like something, don't watch it. I didn't like season 1 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., so I stopped watching. I didn't like season 1, and most of season 2, of Arrow, so I stopped. Life's too short to indulge in something you hate. Complain if it makes you feel better, there might be some valid criticisms, but don't waste time watching crap.

 

BTW, I started watching Arrow again and it's better than before. I love both Flash and Supergirl and I'm debating whether or not to watch AoS again. You'd have to waterboard me before I'd ever watch Daredevil or House of Cards again.

 

Actually, no. Waterboarding might be preferable. More uplifting.

 

Put me int he "watch Agents of Shield" camp. Season 2 and the current season (3) are excellent. 

 

Similar to you, i didn't like Arrow season 2 so stopped, but started again based on the promise of Supergirl. And I'll probably force myself watch Daredevil and Jessica Jones, but not looking forward to it.  

[Andrew_A]

Put me int he "watch Agents of Shield" camp. Season 2 and the current season (3) are excellent. 

 

Similar to you, i didn't like Arrow season 2 so stopped, but started again based on the promise of Supergirl. And I'll probably force myself watch Daredevil and Jessica Jones, but not looking forward to it.  

 

Jessica Jones is pretty dark, but it's also pretty funny at times. Just don't expect to see Marvel's answer to Lois and Clark. In fact, in some ways it's what I would have liked to see in Arrow season 1.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Heroes for Hire could easily be pretty light hearted and fun, if written correctly.  They were always hard luck guys who never seemed to actually get paid and it generally was a lot of fun to read, despite being street level and gritty.  Kind of a Rockford files sensibility.

[Andrew_A]

I would happily watch that, but I don't think Netflix or Marvel would go for that.