The Flash

[Starlord]

Flash had a mind controlling rapist?

 

Soar.

 

Wow.  I have less sympathy for Grodd now.  Bad Gorilla!!   

[Greywind]

Sarah tamed Grodd.

[zslane]

JJ wasn't dark in my view because it was eternally optimistic with regard to solving the problem of Killgrave, particularly when viewed through the lens of Jessica's relentless pursuit of justice in the face of her own trauma. The show dressed in noir, but never really committed to the motif. The show was constantly suspenseful and frequently intense, but it was never really that dark, which is to say it never dragged you, as a viewer, into feeling complete hopelessness and despair.

 

For some folks, anything that makes them uncomfortable gets labelled "dark" (like the subject of rape and rape survivors), but I think that just dilutes the concept and forces us to needlessly concoct a new term for storytelling that is truly dark.

[Ternaugh]

JJ wasn't dark in my view because it was eternally optimistic with regard to solving the problem of Killgrave, particularly when viewed through the lens of Jessica's relentless pursuit of justice in the face of her own trauma. The show dressed in noir, but never really committed to the motif. The show was constantly suspenseful and frequently intense, but it was never really that dark, which is to say it never dragged you, as a viewer, into feeling complete hopelessness and despair.

 

For some folks, anything that makes them uncomfortable gets labelled "dark" (like the subject of rape and rape survivors), but I think that just dilutes the concept and forces us to needlessly concoct a new term for storytelling that is truly dark.

 

I'd ask you for an example of "storytelling that is truly dark", but I'm not sure that I'd really want to know.

[zslane]

House of Cards. Dark and cynical and, frankly, unpleasant to watch. At least for me.

[Hermit]

JJ wasn't dark in my view because it was eternally optimistic with regard to solving the problem of Killgrave, particularly when viewed through the lens of Jessica's relentless pursuit of justice in the face of her own trauma. The show dressed in noir, but never really committed to the motif. The show was constantly suspenseful and frequently intense, but it was never really that dark, which is to say it never dragged you, as a viewer, into feeling complete hopelessness and despair.

 

For some folks, anything that makes them uncomfortable gets labelled "dark" (like the subject of rape and rape survivors), but I think that just dilutes the concept and forces us to needlessly concoct a new term for storytelling that is truly dark.

Well, opinions vary, but it sounds like you're making your own definition of dark (or taking the one possible definition you prefer) and labeling yours the correct one. *Shrug*

[zslane]

Well, when someone says, X is dark, they are implicitly presenting their personal definition of dark and assuming, for the sake of conversation, that it is a definition we would all agree with to some extent. Someone else (me in this case), presents an alternative definition, challenging the first one. It is all part of the process of pounding out something resembling consensus, at least with regard to terminology.

 

But regardless of what term we stick on Jessica Jones, I still maintain that simply referencing rape does not make it the same as showing the rape and then following the victim around as her life implodes without any sort of positive closure or personal empowerment. For the sake of this "debate", I call the latter "dark" and the former "not dark", but feel free to apply whatever terminology suits you and, at the same time, acknowledges the important distinction I'm trying to draw.

[Hermit]

But regardless of what term we stick on Jessica Jones, I still maintain that simply referencing rape does not make it the same as showing the rape and then following the victim around as her life implodes without any sort of positive closure or personal empowerment.

I don't think anyone said that it did. At least not on these boards

 

And that's that sort of thing that has me raising an eyebrow at some of your posts.... it smacks of putting words in people's mouths, and/or moving the goal posts. However, I hope that's my mistaken take on your posts, and not your intent.

 

Or maybe I just have a crappy attitude lately, which is equally possible. I do think we agree that we have different definitions, and for what its worth, I'm glad you enjoyed the Jessica series.

[Nolgroth]

Well, when someone says, X is dark, they are implicitly presenting their personal definition of dark and assuming, for the sake of conversation, that it is a definition we would all agree with to some extent. Someone else (me in this case), presents an alternative definition, challenging the first one. It is all part of the process of pounding out something resembling consensus, at least with regard to terminology.

 

But regardless of what term we stick on Jessica Jones, I still maintain that simply referencing rape does not make it the same as showing the rape and then following the victim around as her life implodes without any sort of positive closure or personal empowerment. For the sake of this "debate", I call the latter "dark" and the former "not dark", but feel free to apply whatever terminology suits you and, at the same time, acknowledges the important distinction I'm trying to draw.

 

The rape reference was certainly gritty, which while it goes hand in hand with dark, is not necessarily the same thing.

 

 

For me what made the show dark was the constant sense of desperation. Even the scenes where JJ and Luke Cage are having sex seemed more about desperation and need than any true enjoyment. The capper for me was when the girl that JJ was trying to save committed suicide. It was a necessary scene that drove the plot forward admirably, but it was still another desperate moment on top of the heap of them.

 

 

Keep in mind that "dark" does not necessarily equal bad. It's just dark. That I prefer the Flash does not make the Daredevil and JJ stories any less compelling or "good." It just makes them, for my purposes, less fun (and thus a little less enjoyable) for me. And this is the me of late 2015. In another year, I might be seeing JJ and DD as moderately grim and Flash as too frivolous. My tastes change that way.

[Starlord]

While rape is a serious matter I don't really necessarily think JJ was a 'dark' series.  I guess I view 'dark' cinema as something with continually negative, morbid, and hopeless overtones.  For example, a 'dark' version of this show IMO would have had Jessica watch all of her friends and loved ones slowly killed off as she failed continuously to save them and her finally succumbing to Kilgrave and leaving with him forever.  Believe me I've seen movies like that example.  That's dark to me.  The version that we got was a 13 hour serious suspense/crime thriller.

[Hermit]

The rape reference was certainly gritty, which while it goes hand in hand with dark, is not necessarily the same thing.

 

 

For me what made the show dark was the constant sense of desperation. Even the scenes where JJ and Luke Cage are having sex seemed more about desperation and need than any true enjoyment. The capper for me was when the girl that JJ was trying to save committed suicide. It was a necessary scene that drove the plot forward admirably, but it was still another desperate moment on top of the heap of them.

 

 

Keep in mind that "dark" does not necessarily equal bad. It's just dark. That I prefer the Flash does not make the Daredevil and JJ stories any less compelling or "good." It just makes them, for my purposes, less fun (and thus a little less enjoyable) for me. And this is the me of late 2015. In another year, I might be seeing JJ and DD as moderately grim and Flash as too frivolous. My tastes change that way.

Regarding the spoiler... I agree, and the line from Hotel California "some dance to remember, some dance to forget" did spring to mind

[zslane]

I don't think anyone said that it did. At least not on these boards.

I'm having to extrapolate, usually because something vague is stated and left to be interpreted/speculated/assumed as to what is meant.

 

You had said that JJ had a mind controlling rapist, and on that basis alone it was "dark" and not merely mature (you were refuting my characterization of the show at the time). I was then left to figure out, on my own, how the mere presence of a rapist, whose (past) rape actions are never shown and left entirely to our imaginations, is grounds for relegating JJ to the "dark" bin of entertainment (I mean, every police procedural on tv has murderers and rapists and child molesters, but I don't ever hear anyone calling Law & Order "dark" and referring to it as a tonal counter-example for The Flash).

 

If it seems I put words in your mouth, I apologize, as that is never my intent. I am merely responding to what I see in posts, working with what I'm given. And sometimes what I'm given isn't specific enough to "get it right" and I take a line of argument down a wrong path as a result.

[Hermit]

I'm having to extrapolate, usually because something vague is stated and left to be interpreted/speculated/assumed as to what is meant.

 

You had said that JJ had a mind controlling rapist, and on that basis alone it was "dark" and not merely mature (you were refuting my characterization of the show at the time). I was then left to figure out, on my own, how the mere presence of a rapist, whose (past) rape actions are never shown and left entirely to our imaginations, is grounds for relegating JJ to the "dark" bin of entertainment (I mean, every police procedural on tv has murderers and rapists and child molesters, but I don't ever hear anyone calling Law & Order "dark" and referring to it as a tonal counter-example for The Flash).

 

If it seems I put words in your mouth, I apologize, as that is never my intent. I am merely responding to what I see in posts, working with what I'm given. And sometimes what I'm given isn't specific enough to "get it right" and I take a line of argument down a wrong path as a result.

I said a mind controlling rapist was dark to me, I didn't say that was the only basis it might be called dark (like someone else, I found a lot of desperation in certain social activities she had). I admit perhaps I could have been clearer. As we both have different definitions or standards for dark, it's not surprising you wouldn't see dark as I do. And, as a matter of fact, I do find some of police procedurals (or at least specific episodes) dark, grim, etc But again, different definitions.

 

I appreciate even a qualified apology so thank you,  my own to you for reading your intent wrong....and for my part, I shall try  to be clearer in the future.

[slikmar]

I would point out also, not argue either way, but the mind controlling rapist isn't just in the past. Only Jessica's part was in the past, we see many examples of his work during and after he has been there.

I consider it noir like, dark in its material, but also it and Daredevil were 2 of the dark, as in hard to see what is happening without turning contrast way up, series I have seen.

[Hermit]

Apparently there are rumors that Lex Luthor will be making a guest appearance on the Flash?

 

If so, I admit, I did not see that one coming

[Hermit]

Legends of Tomorrow is looking fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjRiwrdUzQ

[薔薇語]

That was an awesome trailer. I am looking forward to the show quite a bit. I especially loved the Bubba Fett line. 

 

Soar. 

[Starlord]

Of course, I'll be watching.  I always fail my initial saving throw vs. resisting new superhero series.

 

- Hawkman and Girl seems like redundancy of the redundancy department but perhaps the exploration of their relationship will be done well.  I've been more of a Hawkgirl fan since the animated JL years.

 

- Captain Cold and Heatwave are an interesting addition.  *Minor nitpick* - Do you need the men or the weapons? Cuz, for me, their 'cool' bridge was somewhat 'burned' with the revelation that Cisco can apparently whip up a freeze, fire or gold gun at the drop of a hat.

[Hermit]

Of course, I'll be watching.  I always fail my initial saving throw vs. resisting new superhero series.

 

- Hawkman and Girl seems like redundancy of the redundancy department but perhaps the exploration of their relationship will be done well.  I've been more of a Hawkgirl fan since the animated JL years.

 

- Captain Cold and Heatwave are an interesting addition.  *Minor nitpick* - Do you need the men or the weapons? Cuz, for me, their 'cool' bridge was somewhat 'burned' with the revelation that Cisco can apparently whip up a freeze, fire or gold gun at the drop of a hat.

 

Just a feeling based on what little I've seen of the characters in the comics now and then, but I think one of the Hawk Duo will die to save the other before the mini series ends. I could be wrong. My guess would be Hawkman will die as we have a mostly male cast

 

Fair concern about Cold and Heatwave. I think it would be nice to see some punk get the gun, and turn out to be a terrible shot... show that skill is part of the needed package etc. In the Comics, Captain Cold is a bad ass with or without his gun. He's the blue collar get it done dangerous and devious man you do not want to piss off. So far, his presentation in the series seems to fit with that. Heatwave has been more over the top, but they compliment each other. Should be interesting to see how it goes. I think eventually our two crooks will have tension between them over how far is too far in breaking the rules or betraying the team, but again that's just a guess

[zslane]

I'd gladly ditch this Legends of Tomorrow show for a White Canary show instead. None of the other characters interest me.

[Bazza]

The main reason for me watching Legends of Tomorrow is Sara Lance the White Canary aka Caity Lotz. 

[Hermit]

You know, I don't think I've met a viewer of the show yet who doesn't like Caity Lotz performance so far. I am also glad they brought her back.

 

Captain Cold has also impressed me. "Ray" is hit or miss, but he's grown on me, and as he was originally meant to be Ted Kord, I can see why the actors and writers might have been thrown off on characterization a touch

[Pattern Ghost]

Yeah, Ray's the only one I really dislike. I'm not sure if it's the character or the actor on that one. White Canary and Captain Cold are my favorites out of the bunch.

[Pattern Ghost]

A fun villain for the Flash would be Mirror Master. It'd be interesting to see what they could do with him on TV.

[zslane]

Wentworth Miller is usually the standout in every episode in which he appears. There's simply no way not to love the way he plays Capt. Cold. However, I prefer Capt. Cold in small, periodic doses. Seeing him every week would take the specialness out of his appearances for me. It's the same with Grodd--I'm sure there are folks who think they'd enjoy All Grodd All the Time, but I prefer him in small doses too.

 

Caity Lotz as White Canary, on the other hand, well, I would definitely enjoy a weekly show all about her, and just her...