Marcus Impudite Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 So in Star Trek, they say the greatest strength the Borg possess is that they don't have leaders; that decisions are made by the Collective (the later introduced Borg Queen bullcrap not withstanding). While it's true that individual leaders can indeed make mistakes (and I'll go as far as to say pretty much every 21st century head of state on this ball of mud has thus far demonstrated that they have manure for brains), collectives aren't quite so infallible either. Enter the concept of Groupthink. Cliff Notes for those unfamiliar with the concept: It's when a group of people, for the sake unity and harmony, make some really sh*tty decisions that end in tears. Unless the Borg Collective has someone among them who serves as "Devil's Advocate(s)" (I find that doubtful), I'd imagine that Groupthink would end up being a very big problem for them with how they view individuality. Anyone here see things similarly? Differently? Discuss below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Right off the top-of-my-head, from personal experience, your Cliff's Notes version happens even when there is a Devil's Advocate. So really it sounds like whether an individual or a group makes the decisions, we're all doomed! Happy New Year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Eh, the thing about the borg that annoys me the most--okay, second most*--is how they will just ignore intruders on their ships. Until and unless you cause enough trouble to rally the Borg against you, you can come and go and plant bombs and study them for weaknesses and whatever else you like and they'll just go about their business like morons. *Worst, of course, is how they instantly "adapt" to any attack after one exposure so it becomes useless. Adapt...HOW, exactly? It's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Right off the top-of-my-head, from personal experience, your Cliff's Notes version happens even when there is a Devil's Advocate. So really it sounds like whether an individual or a group makes the decisions, we're all doomed! Happy New Year! *cue Dr. Smith* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The impression I get isn't that the Borg function as "groupthink." Given that individual Borg within the collective generally display the self-awareness of ants at best, IMO a better analogy would be that they're like individual cells within a giant brain, which has a single consciousness and enormous cumulative knowledge and processing power. That consciousness appears to be patterned after and an extension of the Borg Queen's, overwhelming the personalities of the individuals within the collective. As to sinanju's understandable concerns about "adaptation," the closest analogy I can think of to how it appears to work for the Borg, would be conscious mutation towards deliberate "natural selection." In nature a change to an organism's environment may favor mutations which give the organism's offspring a greater chance for survival in that environment, hence more likelihood for those mutations to be passed on to future generations. Eventually natural selection may result in a distinctly different species better adapted to the new environment. Since the Borg appear to be able to change the configuration of their technology and perhaps even biology as an act of will, probably through the medium of their sophisticated nanites, I believe they analyze new conditions they're faced with and then "mutate" themselves to respond to them more effectively. Also in response to sinanju, I haven't seen evidence in the series or movies that someone aboard a Borg ship could just plant bombs on it with impunity. Again, I think the cell/body analogy might be most appropriate here. Individual Borg ignore intruders the way cells in a body ignore a foreign microbe, blindly performing their function, until the intruder does something disruptive to trigger an "immune response." We humans ignore germs and bacteria unless and until their effects become noticeable and detrimental. When that happens to the Borg, they respond pretty fast. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the Borg are unaware of what the intruder's doing. Unlike us, the Borg have perceptual capacity at their equivalent to the "microscopic" level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I find it amusing that, apparently, despite assimilating dozens if not hundreds of different species and cultures, "diplomacy" appears to be highly lacking in their cumulative skill set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I've contemplated a. "future" Trek (post-Voyager) where the Borg surrender to the Federation. The Borg keep losing, therefore, by their own logic, the Federation is the superior culture and the Borg must assimilate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 "I am Ernest 9 of Borg. Resistance is futile. We are prepared to be assimilated." (when an explanation is demanded) "Resistance is futile, therefore we will not resist. We await assimilation into your culture." Yeah, that would be an interesting scenario.... Lucius Alexander The palindromedary questions the importance of it being Ernest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I find it amusing that, apparently, despite assimilating dozens if not hundreds of different species and cultures, "diplomacy" appears to be highly lacking in their cumulative skill set. I doubt it's lacking so much as considered irrelevant. The Borg cultural imperative is to absorb all other sapient species into their collective. Skills which facilitate coexistence with other races would generally serve no purpose. Yet as the Voyager episode, "Scorpion," illustrated, the Borg are capable of cooperating with another species so long as it's in their manifest best interest to do so. The instant that ceases to be the case, assimilation becomes their priority again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Read: the Borg behave in the manifest best interests of the writer tasked with getting that week's script out the door, and the manifest best needs of the plot. Whether or not it otherwise makes a whole lot of sense is usually besides the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 I've contemplated a. "future" Trek (post-Voyager) where the Borg surrender to the Federation. The Borg keep losing, therefore, by their own logic, the Federation is the superior culture and the Borg must assimilate. This is the most painful thing about the Borg; as written, they shouldn't lose. It's bad enough when your hero is a "Mary Sue"; their habit of being awesome at everything and always winning may be tiresome, but at least it makes sense because they're the hero, after all. But when someone makes a recurring "Mary Sue" villian, it gets harder and harder to contrive new and amazing (yet still credible, somehow...) ways for them to lose, in spite of all that awesomeness. Cenobites in space would've been more fun. They got cubes, too, don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Read: the Borg behave in the manifest best interests of the writer tasked with getting that week's script out the door, and the manifest best needs of the plot. Whether or not it otherwise makes a whole lot of sense is usually besides the point. Generally true of any scripted drama. But If it doesn't make a whole lot of sense it usually won't be well received by the audience. People will often accept minor lapses in logic, but there are limits to what they'll tolerate. Unless the point of the entertainment is obviously to be stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 In my experience, most audiences don't think about it deeply enough to notice lapses in logic, be they minor or major. They don't go on forums and blogsites and comment on it like we do either. So while you and I might be disappointed by major lapses in logic, most viewers won't even notice and so tv writers don't really worry about it much. Which is why tv shows and movies actually make for lousy RPG settings if you are looking for air-tight logic and long-form internal consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 The most logical way for the Borg to lose is via a "grand alliance" of worlds that have a common interest and a common enemy. It will be more difficult to adapt to the attacks and tactics of multiple cultures, and the alliance can share tech breakthroughs in order to improve their chances. The alternative is going to be an even more advanced culture resistant to assimilation also species 8472. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I suspect that the Borg and the Dominion may be heading for a collision as they expand. I wonder if the Borg could assimilate a Founder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I suspect that the Borg and the Dominion may be heading for a collision as they expand. I wonder if the Borg could assimilate a Founder? I missed out on DS9, so I have no clue what you just said. As for the blatant loopholes in logic concerning the Borg, I've found it best to just turn off my brain and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 At some point the inability of information to propagate at infinite speed will jump up and bite. When a collective is too large, it can't come to a monolithic decision in a reasonable amount of time. Then subgroups of the collective can and should exert influences to bring each other into agreement. This all starts sounding like how the little domains in a ferromagnet work when an external magnetic field is applied. You get a general net magnetization to the macroscopic assembly, but the individual microscopic domains never actually reach full alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I find it amusing that, apparently, despite assimilating dozens if not hundreds of different species and cultures, "diplomacy" appears to be highly lacking in their cumulative skill set. That means that the Borg have determined that diplomacy is useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Diplomacy is irrelevant Besides, do not think of the Borg as a being of logic, but a force of nature given cyborg form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I find the Borg to be quite logical; but being logical isn't the same as being reasonable. Logic proceeds from an initial premise, but that premise may not be something you agree with. The Borg's premise seems to be: the Borg are a perfect state of being, and all other beings must be brought to this perfect state. Everything they do is based on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 As for the blatant loopholes in logic concerning the Borg, I've found it best to just turn off my brain and enjoy. Sage advice. Almost any fictional construct displays gaps if you study it too closely. Some can stand closer study than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I find the Borg to be quite logical; but being logical isn't the same as being reasonable. Logic proceeds from an initial premise, but that premise may not be something you agree with. The Borg's premise seems to be: the Borg are a perfect state of being, and all other beings must be brought to this perfect state. Everything they do is based on that. They aren't really that driven. If they were, they would have borged the whole galaxy bar a few super advanced energy being cultures by now. They only assimilate a species if they judge them to be "ripe". They'd already sampled humans and decided we weren't worth assimilating. The only reason they changed their mind is because humans apparently demonstrated a capability they didn't understand (Q teleporting them in and out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 It's a big galaxy, dude. From all I've seen of them, they seem pretty driven, but the task is enormous for anyone. And they were seriously set back after that whole fluid-space-species debacle. What you say about their motivation for assimilating the human species sounds possible, but I would appreciate a reference to some official source which stated that. The only species I can recall a Borg stating they passed over as too unremarkable to add its distinctiveness to theirs, is the Kazon, as mentioned by Seven of Nine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Guinan in the episode claimed that humanity wouldn't have had to deal with the Borg for centuries had it not been for Q drawing their attention to humanity. Given that it was apparently the Borg who grabbed the Neutral Zone border colonies and it was definitely the Borg who took Seven, it's not that they were unaware of humanity that was keeping us safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 No, it was me. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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