wcw43921 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Bah, Space Ghost could take them all. I can believe it. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 So, instead of a casual squashing, Superman would have to deliberately put his heel down to crush the Thor-Bug? Thor is powerful - that is without doubt. But he ain't going to keep up with Superman. Thor doesn't move at light speed - much less faster. Thor doesn't think at light speed, either. Thor doesn't bench press planets in his free time. Thor doesn't take the hits that Superman does. Thor can't recover the way Superman can. Thor's only advantage is that he might have some experience - but Superman is hardly lacking in that. Superman has faced Galaxy ending threats on a weekly basis. Any difference in experience with Thor is negligible at best and most likely favoring Superman. Again, there is no shame in accepting that Superman is an overpowered god. It isn't an interesting character because of that. And the only reason why he ever loses is because he forgets he is superman. Or Batman. Batman is the trump to everyone. ^-^ La Rose. Odin-powered Thor could end the fight with a single magical megablast, reducing Kal-el to cinders. I mean, while we're assuming superheroes think and fight like munchkins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted February 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 This button turns me invisible. Spooky, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Superman doesn't generally move at light speed while in atmosphere either. He rarely fights at anywhere near that speed. In fact, he regularly gets hit by things moving much much slower. Not just energy blast but missiles, bullets (even though he can catch them), rockets, and most importantly super-being that are no where near as fast as him. In the past Supes regularly got hit by bricks who not only didn't move at light speed, but had minimal if any super speed. No one is arguing with you saying Superman isn't overpowered. With most versions of the characters Superman has a pretty big edge over Thor, but it is not remotely anything like the one-sided massacre you keep insisting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 This button turns me invisible. Spooky, huh? No--that one fires the heat ray. Seriously, you do not want to mess with Space Ghost. You. Do. Not. He's like Batman with Superman's powers. All his arch-enemies teamed up to beat him, calling themselves The Council Of Doom--and this was at least a decade before the Super-Friends' enemies formed The Legion Of Doom. All of them to take on one hero and his occasionally helpful sidekicks--and they still couldn't beat the guy. That's how powerful he was. I'll say it again--Do Not Mess With Space Ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Didn't Space Ghost have a jet he flew around in? Seems redundant. This costume guy here, I'm thinking he just shaved the ears off a Batman mask- necessity being the mother of invention and all that jazz. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Superman doesn't generally move at light speed while in atmosphere either. He rarely fights at anywhere near that speed. In fact, he regularly gets hit by things moving much much slower. Not just energy blast but missiles, bullets (even though he can catch them), rockets, and most importantly super-being that are no where near as fast as him. In the past Supes regularly got hit by bricks who not only didn't move at light speed, but had minimal if any super speed. No one is arguing with you saying Superman isn't overpowered. With most versions of the characters Superman has a pretty big edge over Thor, but it is not remotely anything like the one-sided massacre you keep insisting. Superman gets hit for the same reason the WonderWoman I posted above struggled with Aquaman - the writer's simply wanted that. Given the power level Superman is reported to have, there is no reason for him to ever get hit by anyone not moving at those speed. I am reminded of the Doomsday arch with the alternate world Justice Lords. Their Superman came in and made quick work of the creature the reportedly killed Superman - how? Because he didn't forget he was superman and actually fought with a real portion of his strength. We have also seen Superman (the good one, not the Lord's version) lobotomize someone in mere seconds by shooting his heat vision through their eyes. Last I checked, Thor's brain isn't lobotomy proof. It is perfectly possible for Superman to have a knockdown and drag out fight with Thor, if the writer's wanted it to be the case. It is also possible for him to have such a fight with Cyborg, Nightwing, or even Bat-Cow if the writer's wanted it. But we aren't limiting ourselves to writer's fiat. If we actually look at what these characters are actually capable of doing and not deliberately handycapping one to create a good fight, we all should realize that it is like a pigeon fighting against a hurricane. La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Didn't Space Ghost have a jet he flew around in? Seems redundant. That would be the Phantom Cruiser. It was actually a spaceship, not a jet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Superman gets hit for the same reason the WonderWoman I posted above struggled with Aquaman - the writer's simply wanted that. Given the power level Superman is reported to have, there is no reason for him to ever get hit by anyone not moving at those speed. I am reminded of the Doomsday arch with the alternate world Justice Lords. Their Superman came in and made quick work of the creature the reportedly killed Superman - how? Because he didn't forget he was superman and actually fought with a real portion of his strength. We have also seen Superman (the good one, not the Lord's version) lobotomize someone in mere seconds by shooting his heat vision through their eyes. Last I checked, Thor's brain isn't lobotomy proof. It is perfectly possible for Superman to have a knockdown and drag out fight with Thor, if the writer's wanted it to be the case. It is also possible for him to have such a fight with Cyborg, Nightwing, or even Bat-Cow if the writer's wanted it. But we aren't limiting ourselves to writer's fiat. If we actually look at what these characters are actually capable of doing and not deliberately handycapping one to create a good fight, we all should realize that it is like a pigeon fighting against a hurricane. La Rose. And if you look at what Thor's capable of, he can similarly end a fight with Superman in seconds flat. Mega-magic blast, Kryptonian ash pile. Superman has zero invulnerability vs magic. Canon. Thor fires incredibly powerful magic blasts when he wants to. Canon. He's also beaten opponents who tried to speed blitz him. I think this is a pointless argument. BTW, Spectre pwnz both of them. And Dr. Manhattan on Sundays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 That would be the Phantom Cruiser. It was actually a spaceship, not a jet. Definitely a cool name for a vehicle, whatever it was. Made somewhat less cool by the teen sidekicks and pet monkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Too many conflicting sources, no? That's why I prefer sources that provide actual numeric values. Numbers can be compared. Everything else is speculative estimation (read: next to useless). Well, why not a Champions Showdown? 400 pts. 6E. Champions straight She Hulk vs. Wonder Woman, built campaign-worthy and balanced. Which one would you rather have in your campaign? Which would you rather play? And which would win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Well, why not a Champions Showdown? 400 pts. 6E. Champions straight She Hulk vs. Wonder Woman, built campaign-worthy and balanced. Which one would you rather have in your campaign? Which would you rather play? And which would win? Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman, and She-Hulk respectively. On a common point base, She-Hulk wins. Wonder Woman burns a massive part of her points on stuff like her invisible plane and lasso. Granted, they could tip the balance in her favour, but She-Hulk is a classic example of how focusing on doing one thing well pays off in Hero. I've started to build Wonder Woman a few times, but have always been stymied by her plane. Building it through powers seems a bit like cheating, while building it as a vehicle is really really expensive. And then I get bored. Her ambit claim to having virtually every skill in the book gets a bit old too. It begs just giving her the main skills she actually uses and ignoring the rest. I suppose you could build one of the versions of the character with flight rather than her plane. That would probably work out better. If you were radical, you could even go with Wonder Girl, but I'm not sure how she *should* fare against She-Hulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Does she even still have her plane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hard to be sure. It doesn't look like it has been used recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I doubt she has the plane, as its sort of pointless (as she can fly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If you really want to compare characters, you need to pick a particular era. "Superman" can be anywhere from 1938 to the Man of Steel movie. Are you talking about the animated Bruce Timm stuff? The animated Max Fleischer stuff? The radio show from the '40s? The Christopher Reeve movie? They are all versions of Superman, but they have very different levels of power. And the truth is, Odinforce Thor is going to whoop the crap out of Bruce Timm Superman. You also have to realize that there are pretty extreme power fluctuations within some of those issues. Even Pre-Crisis Silver Age Supes, the guy who flies to another galaxy when he has to sneeze because of the disastrous side-effects, has operated waaaay under that level of power. I read an old comic where he got hit by a regular normal lightning bolt and it gave him a concussion and he had amnesia for the rest of the story. I remember a Silver Surfer comic where the Black Panther got him in an arm lock and he couldn't get out. I threw the comic on the ground and stomped on it. Then I had to pay the guy at the store because I hadn't actually bought it, it was still on the rack. Even though I told him I did him a favor, he was still upset for some reason. Then there's the fact that the way characters actually behave in the comics is different from the way they're described as behaving. I've seen a lot of writeups for characters like She-Hulk or the Thing that give them a strength somewhere in the 56 or 57 range. They calculate lifting ability that the Marvel handbooks gave the characters and the go from there. But the fact is, those lifting weights aren't accurate. I've seen those characters lift objects that have real world weights far far in excess of 100 tons. Ben Grimm has thrown trains (300+ tons) at people. Thrown them. He's a brick in the 85-90 range. DC characters, meanwhile, seem to underperform a bit. People with superspeed, specifically, never seem to use their powers at their full ability. That's even the case when their loved ones are at risk. I mean, how could the Flash ever lose to a guy like Captain Cold? The only answer is that superspeed isn't as great as people think it is. So, if you're comparing them, are DC characters operating as they are described? Has Superman suddenly become a munchkin gamer, throwing asteroids at the Earth at superspeed and shooting his heat vision from the orbit of Jupiter? Or is he going to fight, you know, like Superman does. Is Thor immediately going to power up and blast Superman with a magic 'fury of a thousand sons' energy blast from his hammer because he knows his opponent is vulnerable to it (though to be fair, Supes' vulnerability to magic is heavily exaggerated)? Or is he going to act like Thor and prolong the fight 'cuz it's fun? Diana is a better fighter than She-Hulk, because she just is. Hyperbole about 'trained by a warrior people who have done nothing but practice for thousands of years' doesn't really matter. The Amazons are always getting their asses kicked. They're dangerous to normal people, but not anybody built on real points. Named Amazon characters can be pretty tough, but your run of the mill Amazon is just a mook who happens to hate men. I'll put Iron Fist up against anyone from that island not named Diana. -- For what it's worth, my best estimate of She-Hulk would be to take 4th edition Durak, give him about 10 more Str, 5 more PD and ED, maybe Martial Strike, Martial Block, Martial Grab, and Crush, and maybe two more NCM for Superleap. Then obviously raise the Comeliness and the mental stats a bit as well. I think that gives you a solid late-80s and after She-Hulk. My best estimate for late 90s era Wonder Woman (when I last looked at her) would probably be to take the 4th edition high end Viperia and add some more Strength. Bring her up to about 110. Eliminate any powers that are obviously Superman-specific and give her a magic lasso -- maybe a 10 or 12D6 Entangle with a linked 20D6 Mind Control to tell the truth. That lasso is awesome. I like She Hulk, but Diana is obviously gonna win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If we were doing the constant point thing, it would boil down to: Flight and Lasso versus superior strength and invulnerability. It depends on what her lasso does these days. If it doesn't mess with She-Hulk's head I doubt it would be able to restrain her for long in a restricted point setting, although I'm not an expert in the finer details of the use of Entangles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 No--that one fires the heat ray. Seriously, you do not want to mess with Space Ghost. You. Do. Not. He's like Batman with Superman's powers. All his arch-enemies teamed up to beat him, calling themselves The Council Of Doom--and this was at least a decade before the Super-Friends' enemies formed The Legion Of Doom. All of them to take on one hero and his occasionally helpful sidekicks--and they still couldn't beat the guy. That's how powerful he was. I'll say it again--Do Not Mess With Space Ghost. Do not go back & check out Gizmo #6 "Ghost of a Chance" by Mirage Studios (1987). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The only current version of Wonder Woman I have any familiarity with is the New 52 Earth-2 version. Tough, but not exaggerated. Pretty much the same for Earth-2 Kryptonians. Awesome, but not lightspeed travelling planet pushers. And matched against New Gods... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I don't know, the lasso and the implied proclivities of the Amazons? Fifty Shades of Green? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comic Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 How would you write up the Striking (and Distinctive) Appearance of She Hulk and Wonder Woman, for your campaign setting? (And if they'd have it, Jennifer Walters and/or Diana Prince?) Reputation? What Complications would you give them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I still use 5th edition. They have high Comeliness scores and very high Presence scores. She Hulk is supposed to be really sexy. She'd have a Com of about 18. She's intimidating as can be, so a Pre of about 30 or so. Jennifer Walters is mousy cute, but not threatening. I'd give her a Pre of 13 (she's still a skilled lawyer) and a Com of about 14. Wonder Woman is unearthly beautiful. Com of 24 or so would fit. And a Pre of 45 or so. She commands nearly as much respect as Superman. As Diana, she dresses down and keeps her force of personality under wraps. In secret ID she probably looks like a 16 Com and a 15-18 Pre. Very impressive, but not Greek god level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 No--that one fires the heat ray. Seriously, you do not want to mess with Space Ghost. You. Do. Not. He's like Batman with Superman's powers. All his arch-enemies teamed up to beat him, calling themselves The Council Of Doom--and this was at least a decade before the Super-Friends' enemies formed The Legion Of Doom. All of them to take on one hero and his occasionally helpful sidekicks--and they still couldn't beat the guy. That's how powerful he was. I'll say it again--Do Not Mess With Space Ghost. Did you memorize the Land of the Lost crystal combos as well? A Space Ghost comic made an appearance in the Flash TV show recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 She-Ra! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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