DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Greywind]

The "photo" of Hawk, Dove and Robin looks like an artist's rendering to me.

[Armory]

Didn't Steven Spielberg recently crap-talk comic book movies?  Well well.

 

Spielberg to make DC Comics' Blackhawk

 

http://ew.com/movies/2018/04/17/steven-spielberg-blackhawk/

 

[Spence]

3 hours ago, Armory said:

Didn't Steven Spielberg recently crap-talk comic book movies?  Well well.

 

Spielberg to make DC Comics' Blackhawk

 

http://ew.com/movies/2018/04/17/steven-spielberg-blackhawk/

 

 

Well, he was trash talking supers comics.  Blackhawk is one of the old Ace Pilot adventure series same as old pulps like The Phantom Ace of G2, The Griffon and Richard Knight. 

 

But SS will blow it after he decides to "fix" the story.  He hasn't made anything good since Young Indiana Jones......

 

[Starlord]

He said they would go the way of the western and that these things are cyclical.  I never saw it as the 'dissing' that some seemed to think it was and took it so personally.  Particularly when you consider Westerns had a pretty good run of 30-40 years at or near the top and still get made sporadically today.

[Lord Liaden]

Sure, I already came to the conclusion that superhero movies are the current flavor, but the trend will shift to something else eventually. But Blackhawk was never a superhero comic -- it's much more in the tradition of pulp adventure with "weird science," and we know Spielberg is all over that.

 

Personally I'd like to see some DC post-apoc properties get a movie treatment, like Kamandi and/or the Atomic Knights.

[zslane]

I dunno...BvS felt pretty post-apoc to me...

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 But Blackhawk was never a superhero comic

http://www.cosmicteams.com/quality/profiles/Blackhawks2.html

 

Never say never - scroll down a bit!

[Lord Liaden]

Dear God. Until now I was lucky enough never to have seen or heard about that. Thanks a lot Hugh, now I need lye eyewash.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Oh, those comics were awesome! A team of unflattering national stereotypes turned into particularly stupid superheroes? What's not to like?

[Lord Liaden]

The version that showed up in the animated Justice League TV series was pretty cool.

 

 

[Spence]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

http://www.cosmicteams.com/quality/profiles/Blackhawks2.html

 

Never say never - scroll down a bit!

Last part of the article.

"No member of the Blackhawks has ever exhibited metahuman powers. "

 

Not SUPERheroes.... ?

[Hugh Neilson]

A lot of "superheroes" lack metahuman powers, depending on one's definition.  Green Lantern just has a super-ring, no powers.  Atom and Hawkman are similarly focus-based.

 

MCU?  Iron Man and Hawkeye are focus users, Black Widow lacks metahuman powers.  Ant-Man, Black Panther, StarLord, Winter Soldier.  Cap, however, clearly is a meta in the MCU thanks to the serum.

 

Even Doc Strange, arguably - he has magic items and knows magic spells, but magic is studied and learned, not a superhuman ability.

[Spence]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A lot of "superheroes" lack metahuman powers, depending on one's definition.  Green Lantern just has a super-ring, no powers.  Atom and Hawkman are similarly focus-based.

 

MCU?  Iron Man and Hawkeye are focus users, Black Widow lacks metahuman powers.  Ant-Man, Black Panther, StarLord, Winter Soldier.  Cap, however, clearly is a meta in the MCU thanks to the serum.

 

Even Doc Strange, arguably - he has magic items and knows magic spells, but magic is studied and learned, not a superhuman ability.

 

oh come on really? Green Lantern doesn't have metapowers because the special effect is a ring.  Are you trolling?  Or bored?  SUPERheros all have meta-abilities even if a few basement dwellers try to be relevant by inventing more categories.

 

Splitting hairs at that ridiculas level does not suit you or the well thought out posts of the past.  Disappointing.

 

This is why I spend months away from the boards. It is slowly sliding away from awesome reasonable debate to micro-hairsplitting and titanium tap-shoes....

 

Blackhawks in the comic and the pulps were well within normal, no The Shadow mysticism or "supergadgets" at all.  Except the short flirtation where they tried to make them supers and failed. 

 

But in the end they did not act in the supers world, instead the were firmly in the "normal human max" threshold.

 

Time for another hiatus..

[Starlord]

That was odd.

 

Anyway, re: non-supers - an interesting thing for me is the suspension of disbelief that arises concerning any comic book character that is physically a 'normal human'.  The idea that (for all his supreme skills and intellect) Batman's 'normal human' tendons, bones and spinal chord could survive more than a minute during any super-powered battle is something often overlooked IMO.

[zslane]

IMO, Batman was ruined the moment they made him a member of the Justice League. Of course, superhero comics do this sort of thing all the time, putting talented normals onto teams with demi-gods and forcing the writers to contrive events so that they never get annihilated in combat. It's bone stupid, but it sells books (and tickets), so I guess it's perfectly reasonable. ?

[Lord Liaden]

As Hugh wrote, "depending on one's definition." To me he seemed to very reasonably bring up a different perspective on how the Blackhawks could be viewed, for consideration and discussion. Hardly deserving of such a nasty rebuke from someone as normally thoughtful as you, Spence.

 

Disappointing.

[slikmar]

44 minutes ago, zslane said:

IMO, Batman was ruined the moment they made him a member of the Justice League. Of course, superhero comics do this sort of thing all the time, putting talented normals onto teams with demi-gods and forcing the writers to contrive events so that they never get annihilated in combat. It's bone stupid, but it sells books (and tickets), so I guess it's perfectly reasonable. ?

This is kind of why in groups like the Avengers and JL aren't really a playable group in a champions scenario. I mean, what couldn't Thor or Superman not solve that you would actually need a Hawkeye/Batman in a true game situation, if you built them with no points limitations.

[Lord Liaden]

34 minutes ago, slikmar said:

This is kind of why in groups like the Avengers and JL aren't really a playable group in a champions scenario. I mean, what couldn't Thor or Superman not solve that you would actually need a Hawkeye/Batman in a true game situation, if you built them with no points limitations.

 

Veteran Hero gamer Theron Bretz came up with a very practical and insightful response to that quite understandable viewpoint as far as Champions play goes, in his article for Digital Hero #3 entitled, "Pointless Champions." You can read a sizeable excerpt from that article here.

[zslane]

To my mind, it is superhero teams like the original X-Men that serve as the best models for RPG play because the premise of the original X-Men was that they were all teens or young adults who were new to the superhero game and were still learning to manage and control their powers. It is a model that easily justifies giving everyone the same number of starting points and rationalizes the natural gamer's instinct to keep things balanced.

 

The mistake I think a lot of players make is in thinking that they should be faithfully aping every trope of the source material, even those that only work within the context of tightly-controlled single-author narratives. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you can't really play Batman in an RPG alongside Superman and Wonder Woman unless the GM is going to go to the same lengths (that a comic writer would) to contrive events to keep your character alive. That sort of manipulation may help the game feel like a comic, but it will also make the rails it is riding on much more apparent.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, Starlord said:

Anyway, re: non-supers - an interesting thing for me is the suspension of disbelief that arises concerning any comic book character that is physically a 'normal human'.  The idea that (for all his supreme skills and intellect) Batman's 'normal human' tendons, bones and spinal chord could survive more than a minute during any super-powered battle is something often overlooked IMO.

 

Many years back, I recall someone in a comic shop who said "I only like realistic characters - like the Punisher".  Really?  The man has had every bone in his body broken at least twice, gets shot, stabbed, etc. then wades through swamps and sewers with open wounds, and it's realistic he has even lived to his present age, much less remaining in top physical shape?  Bats and Supes are both unrealistic in their own ways.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

As Hugh wrote, "depending on one's definition." To me he seemed to very reasonably bring up a different perspective on how the Blackhawks could be viewed, for consideration and discussion.

 

To be clear, it's that "abortive supers" phase that brings them out of "action hero" in an attempt to sell comics with "Super Heroes" that causes them to perhaps be classed as Supers.

 

17 minutes ago, zslane said:

To my mind, it is superhero teams like the original X-Men that serve as the best models for RPG play because the premise of the original X-Men was that they were all teens or young adults who were new to the superhero game and were still learning to manage and control their powers. It is a model that easily justifies giving everyone the same number of starting points and rationalizes the natural gamer's instinct to keep things balanced.

 

Even the original X-Men seem widely disparate in power.  We have Massive EyeBlast Man, a fast Brick, a classic energy projector and ...well, a guy with wings, and a chick with TK that exhausts her if she tries to move another human being around.

 

Equal points?

 

Of course, it's very easy for Champions to become "everyone has 12 DCs, 25 PD and ED, OCV 9 and DCV 10.  Go write up your special effects.  Oh, and get a flavor power or two,"

[zslane]

I think it is easier to make the original X-Men "balanced" from a Champions perspective than most other superhero teams of the same size.

[Lord Liaden]

I still hold that Theron's article gives very practical advice, which also fits that particular genre trope. I've used it, and it works.

[st barbara]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

I think it is easier to make the original X-Men "balanced" from a Champions perspective than most other superhero teams of the same size.

Possibly that is because each of the original "X-Men" had only one obvious power "Cyclops'-Energy blast, "Angel"-Wings (flight), "Iceman" - Cold/ice ,"Beast"- Acrobatics (you might add prehensile feet to that)."Marvel Girl"- Telekinesis. They were also first introduced as a single team, unlike many super teams that are collections of heroes with existing back stories (e g JLA, Avengers etc).

[Hugh Neilson]

You have to take liberties to make the original X-Men work. 

 

Cyclops needs defenses.

 

Angel needs some attack abilities (he's not overly strong, or greatly skilled in HTH, in the comics and spends a lot of combat time being a movement power for his teammates) and defenses.

 

Iceman is the most balanced of the  bunch, but he starts out throwing snowballs as his main attack.

 

Beast is an acrobatic Brick - but he doesn't seem superhumanly strong in his early appearances.  And, again, no resistant defenses, really.

 

Marvel Girl is the classic token female on a Stan Lee team - her TK is about equal to human STR, and using it for anything really Super tends to leave her exhausted.

 

HyperMan built a pretty balanced JLA for Hero.  We did something similar years ago to let our son play the animated JLA. 

 

The movie Avengers? Hulk, Cap, Iron Man and Thor come across as pretty equal-powered.  Hawkeye?  Well, that exploding arrow sure threw Loki for a loop.  Black Widow holds her own in HTH with Cap.

[Starlord]

Hmm.  Black Widow was pretty ineffectual against Bucky both times times she fought him whereas Cap ended up defeating him eventually.