DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Cassandra]

I'm thinking he just has an Area Affect Attack in his Multipower for minor criminals and it's special effect is punching and kicking.

[RDU Neil]

28 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh I think though it’s the STR lift chart which threw a monkey wrench into things. Consider before the STR chart, normal 10 meant what? Nothing definitively. I myself as a couch potatoe would easily fit in as a 10. Once the chart started and people started to question what average was then we shifted to Average really should be 8. Also once people did the math and look up world records being were saying that no way a normal can deadlift at 25 STR. Notice how in 5th, Max weight to be lifted became defined as Max barely off the ground and perhaps a step or two. (I’m also thinking that this was also in 4e too). I wondered years ago, what if the STR chart shifted to the right? 10 STR max was the old 5 STR max? Last point, as NCM shows us (and many other rule discussions) players seem to mispply rules even when spelled out.

 

On this and the "max deadlift" issue, I think everyone always forgot "pushing" as a thing. I guarantee that whatever the max deadlift is in real life, it isn't base STR... but a very strong person "pushing" to lift way beyond the normal for a very brief period of time, exhausting themselves in the process. Back when I did the gym rat thing, and would bench press... I could essentially do 150 lbs. multiple times very regularly... but at my best, hit 225 for only a rep or two, with a spotter, fully exhausting myself... so I was "pushing" to hit that level and couldn't maintain it much at all. Those guys throwing up 400 lbs, etc., even as huge as they are... are still pushing to get there.

[Ninja-Bear]

RDU Neil are you suggesting then that the max weight listed for STR should be considered Pish STR? Cause I like it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Or another thought I had was for a disadvantage, “normal”, phy lim: -5 STR for lifting 

[RDU Neil]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

RDU Neil are you suggesting then that the max weight listed for STR should be considered Pish STR? Cause I like it.

 

I moved this discussion to a new thread under Champs.

 

Here....

 

[Starlord]

That's nice.  

 

Now - let's discuss Joker's stats and builds.  Superhuman/non-superhuman?  

[Old Man]

 

Aren't most of Batman's rogues gallery normal gadgeteers just like he used to be?  I suppose we could pretend that Joker and Harley's chemical hot tub treatment gave them some damage resistance or something...

[Starlord]

I just wanted to see if someone would bite. ?

[Pattern Ghost]

5 hours ago, Old Man said:

Aren't most of Batman's rogues gallery normal gadgeteers just like he used to be?  I suppose we could pretend that Joker and Harley's chemical hot tub treatment gave them some damage resistance or something...

 

I thought that Joker was mostly insensitive to pain because of the chemicals, so maybe a small stun only damage reduction or stun only PD boost would be in order. I'm not sure that it's still a thing, but I remember reading it years ago as a rationalization of how he can take so many beatings from Bats.

[drunkonduty]

Thanks to those who recommended Black Lightning. 6 eps in and quite enjoying it.

 

Good cast, script is very good in places. The first two eps were excellent. A couple of ham fisted moments; the attempt to give the main villain a deep and human background (a la the way Cottonmouth was flashed out in Luke Cage) struck me as particularly shoe-horned and ineffective. I have enjoyed all the in-show references to Black Lightning's look. The "Earth Wind and Fire" costume.

 

I can't help but make comparisons to Luke Cage. I think Luke Cage is a better show. For it's villains if nothing else. But I enjoy the family dynamics in Black Lightning. Very well done. I will say it's the best DC show I've yet seen.

[slikmar]

6 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Aren't most of Batman's rogues gallery normal gadgeteers just like he used to be?  I suppose we could pretend that Joker and Harley's chemical hot tub treatment gave them some damage resistance or something...

Then again, so were almost all of Flash's Rogues.

 

[Old Man]

 

That may be why DC tends to have better villains than Marvel.  A lack of superpowers means the writers have to give the characters personality and depth in order to set them apart from each other, and the heroes.

[drunkonduty]

36 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

That may be why DC tends to have better villains than Marvel.  A lack of superpowers means the writers have to give the characters personality and depth in order to set them apart from each other, and the heroes.

 

Must... resist... bait...

[Hugh Neilson]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:22 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh I think though it’s the STR lift chart which threw a monkey wrench into things. Consider before the STR chart, normal 10 meant what? Nothing definitively. I myself as a couch potatoe would easily fit in as a 10. Once the chart started and people started to question what average was then we shifted to Average really should be 8. Also once people did the math and look up world records being were saying that no way a normal can deadlift at 25 STR. Notice how in 5th, Max weight to be lifted became defined as Max barely off the ground and perhaps a step or two. (I’m also thinking that this was also in 4e too). I wondered years ago, what if the STR chart shifted to the right? 10 STR max was the old 5 STR max? Last point, as NCM shows us (and many other rule discussions) players seem to mispply rules even when spelled out.

 

There is no "before the STR chart" - 10 STR lifted 100 kg from 1e, doubled for each +5.

 

23 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

On this and the "max deadlift" issue, I think everyone always forgot "pushing" as a thing. I guarantee that whatever the max deadlift is in real life, it isn't base STR... but a very strong person "pushing" to lift way beyond the normal for a very brief period of time, exhausting themselves in the process. Back when I did the gym rat thing, and would bench press... I could essentially do 150 lbs. multiple times very regularly... but at my best, hit 225 for only a rep or two, with a spotter, fully exhausting myself... so I was "pushing" to hit that level and couldn't maintain it much at all. Those guys throwing up 400 lbs, etc., even as huge as they are... are still pushing to get there.

 

As covered in the new thread on the Champions board,. pushing is "a thing" that, RAW, is extremely restricted.  Normal people can NEVER push - right from 6e.  An Olympic weightlifter is specifically noted as "cannot push to lift more".  Even heroes can Push under only exceptional circumstances, not "Cuz I'll gets me a PS 12 so I'se gonna spend extra END to hit harder".

 

Many games ignore those rules - the results of ignoring the rules is not the game system's fault.

 

Let's tie this back to the thread - Hero rules are about cinematic reality.  Here we have Cinematic Batman - should he not be able to accomplish cinematic action hero feats?

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh thanks for the illumination on STR chart. 

 

Back to Batman. I remember Steve Long noted in Dark Champions that some characters seem to work on two different character sheets. One for classic Champions and one for Dark Champions (which is closer to Heroic level)- my words. So to Answer your question, I think it really does come down to game expectations. In a JL cartoon, how often does he even have to push his strength to throw goons ? Or pick up big rubble? Or even never gets crushed but is trapped under rubble? So strength 25 isn’t out of question. Now those same stunts in Batman:TAS ? Harder pressed iirc. So maybe 20 STR - just so I don’t have to deal with 1/2 die, is more in order. 

[zslane]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Let's tie this back to the thread - Hero rules are about cinematic reality.  Here we have Cinematic Batman - should he not be able to accomplish cinematic action hero feats?

 

Well, of course. But there's "cinematic" and then there's "pure fantasy". John McClane can run around and fight the bad guys while his feet are bleeding because he's a cinematic action hero. Batman shouldn't be defying physics (and fundamental human physiology) under the rubric of being in a "cinematic" setting. There are limits to what normal humans should be able to do even in a superhero universe. And while Batman may be extraordinary, he is still extraordinary within the boundaries of "normal human", because that's what he is. A normal human (not a mutant, not an alien, not a sorceror, not a result of scientific enhancement, etc.).

[Ninja-Bear]

To clairify your last question. Yes Batman should be able to do what a cinematic hero is able to do. And how everything else in this game, Cinematic expectations should be expressed before building a character.

[Cassandra]

20 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh thanks for the illumination on STR chart. 

 

Back to Batman. I remember Steve Long noted in Dark Champions that some characters seem to work on two different character sheets. One for classic Champions and one for Dark Champions (which is closer to Heroic level)- my words. So to Answer your question, I think it really does come down to game expectations. In a JL cartoon, how often does he even have to push his strength to throw goons ? Or pick up big rubble? Or even never gets crushed but is trapped under rubble? So strength 25 isn’t out of question. Now those same stunts in Batman:TAS ? Harder pressed iirc. So maybe 20 STR - just so I don’t have to deal with 1/2 die, is more in order. 

 

This is why I created this.

 

Cost Powers

45 Armor +15 rPD +15 rED

50 Multipower (50 Points)

3 u) Invisibility [Hearing], No Fringe, No END (+1/2)

5 u) Multiform: 250 Points [Batman]

5 u) Multiform: 250 Points [Batmobile]

5 u) Multiform: 250 Points [Batplane]

5 u) Multiform: 250 Points [Batboat]

2 u) Running +5", 8x NCM

3 u) STR +30

2 u) Swinging 10", 8x NCM

Total Powers Cost: 125 Points

 

[Ternaugh]

I'd be much more interested in a game mechanics argument in the proper thread.

 

Or, barring that, convert Batman to Toon for me.

[Ninja-Bear]

I looked back at the original post and I liked Wonder Woman. Even being set in WWI. Btw I thought WWI was a neat change of pace.

[Old Man]

I thought WWI was awful.  No picturesque marching formations or glorious cavalry charges, just mud and barbed wire and machine guns.  And the smell. 

 

The High Middle Ages had the best battles, really.  And feudal Japan.

[Bazza]

The high Middle Ages of feudal Japan. 

[Starlord]

Who doesn't love the smell of trenches and mustard gas in the morning?

[Hugh Neilson]

 

14 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

I'd be much more interested in a game mechanics argument in the proper thread.

 

Or, barring that, convert Batman to Toon for me.

Moved a lot of the recent discussion to RDUNeil's thread on the Champions board.

 

I'll leave the Toon w/u to someone with a better recall of the system.

[Armory]

Just saw A:IW.  To tie that into this thread, DC should give Marvel all of its lunch money and slink home.