Takes No Body

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've been pondering something lately, an automaton power that simulates creatures like Bugs Bunny who can be crushed, stabbed, electrocuted, burnt, exploded, poisoned, acidified, etc but never really harmed.  In the game "Toon" they call it being "bonked" where the character cannot ever die but can be temporarily stunned or inconvenienced (Wiley E Coyote falls 9000 feet and pancakes, but is fine the next scene).  In Hero terms this seems like a character who can take Stun, but takes no Body from an attack.

 

I'm not really sure how many points this would be worth, it seems like fewer than Takes No Stun, simply because in Hero body is a less common attack, so wouldn't be as much a threat.  And it doesn't prevent being stunned, either.  I can see a two-stage power like Takes no Stun, however: 

 

Takes No Body (temporarily loses abilities - loses the ability to use an arm when it sustains enough trauma, but only for a short time such as a turn)

Takes No Body (unkillable)

 

Now, this would have to cost more than the regeneration ability that prevents death (since it has no method to kill included), but not a lot more because that's all it really does.  But obviously such a character would not bleed - what would it do?  SO that should be folded into the price as well.  Maybe 40 and 55 points?  

Granted this could be heavily abused if not carefully written and controlled.  Someone who bought both Takes No Stun and Takes No Body could still be defeated (tied up, buried in concrete, mind controlled, teleported miles away, etc) but they would be unstoppable otherwise, so its probably worth a clause that this power should never be taken with TNS without GM permission and very special circumstances.

 

But in the toolkit it would allow for some interesting builds and character concepts, ones that regeneration sort of simulates at present.

[Surrealone]

Appropriate amounts of per-turn Regeneration (with the ability to resurrect and heal limbs) fail to properly represent this how, exactly?  I ask because the ability to be Toon-like 'bonked' is effectively a special effect of the ability to die and recover from it.  That's Regeneration in Hero … and a LOT of it at a very high cost if it's supposed to be near-instantaneous.  Do note that even Wile E. Coyote peels himself off of rocks or walks away looking like an accordian after being pancaked … taking roughly a Turn (12s) to do it as he exits a scene in an amusing way … so I don't think you need to recover faster than that.

 

You probably need a high REC to go with it so that you have some END and STUN, of course … unless you forsee the character needing to take it easy like Wile E. Coyote does (when he goes back to the drawing board) before it goes back into action.

 

Put another way, I think we already have a power and appropriate characteristics that do exactly what you want. Thus, I don't see a need for another one.  It probably costs more than you want it to cost, but it's so stupidly powerful that it SHOULD cost a ton, IMHO.  Even your two-stage example of inability to lose limbs is actually covered by Regeneration; all you need to do is use the optional Hit Location rules to determine which limbs were hit, and consider them disabled or destroyed if enough BODY is done … then let Regeneration with Limb Healing ability do its thing to bring them back.  No special tables or limitations needed, at all … and no need to create a custom power around it; just use the optional rules you already have around Hit Locations in conjunction with Regen and you're golden.

 

That said, if you insist that this isn't a special effect of Regeneration and are absolutely intent on building some janky house-rule power around it, then I believe that the cost to achieve what you want using Regeneration and Recovery should be your guide as to the appropriate cost of whatever you build.  i.e. I think this should cost far more than the Automaton powers tend to cost if it's to be near-instantaneous.  To put that into perspective, Recovering 20 BODY per turn with the ability to Heal Limbs and Resurrect costs … (wait for it) … 345 active points.  So that's the kind of power and pricing you're talking about when you want someone to be unkillable and be able to get up and walk away from Wile E. Coyote-like deaths in Hero in 12 seconds.  (And that doesn't include the cost of a high REC to go with it...)

[eepjr24]

In addition to what SurrealOne said, I would not think of this as a power at all in the toon world. It is a campaign setting. If you want to be NOT like that, you buy a physical limitation that represents how you are different from the norm.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Regeneration causes you to actually take body, you just don't die.  Further, there is a built-in method which can permanently kill you as part of the purchase.

 

If you build Ditzy the Duck cartoon character brought to life in a Champions campaign, its not a campaign feature.  Its a character in a regular superhero setting with a distinct set of powers.

 

Quote

To put that into perspective, Recovering 20 BODY per turn with the ability to Heal Limbs and Resurrect costs … (wait for it) … 345 active points.

 

Now do "Takes No Stun"

[Tech]

CR Taylor, if this is going to be something that no other player will have, talk to the GM about it for a special ruling. In the campaign I'm in, a character has a unique power that no one else will have. We assigned a quick cost and moved on; I say 'we' because we have 4 GM's to do episodes to varying degrees. All GMs agreed and we didn't bother trying to figure out the cost extensively: we just assigned a cost.

[eepjr24]

True, if you build a cartoon character in a Champions then you should pay the same price as a Champions player would. 

 

Takes No  Stun is specific to automatons, robots and other beings that are "manufactured in some way" and "controlled by some other character" (6e1, 145)

 

If I was building "Takes No Body" as an automaton power, I would probably place it around 100 AP.  More than Takes No Stun, but not atmospheric for something that is mostly being built as a follower, summoned being or the like.

 

For a player I would probably just use 30 levels of physical and energy damage negation, Body Only (-1/2), maybe with a minor side effect to represent the odd things that happen when toons take large amounts of body damage (-1/4).  300 AP, 170 RP.

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Regeneration causes you to actually take body, you just don't die.  Further, there is a built-in method which can permanently kill you as part of the purchase.

 

If you build Ditzy the Duck cartoon character brought to life in a Champions campaign, its not a campaign feature.  Its a character in a regular superhero setting with a distinct set of powers.

 

Not dying from taking BODY is fundamentally no different from dying from taking BODY and then resurrecting a la Regeneration -- because the end result is the same: you live after taking BODY damage that would otherwise have killed you -- and are effectively unkillable. ( It is for this reason that I assert that not dying from taking a massive amount of BODY is basically just a special effect of Regeneration that has Resurrect capability.  The same is true of limb loss/disablement and regrowth/use.)
 

And by the way, using your own example of Wile E. Coyote ... he clearly takes BODY.  Here's an image that backs up my stance:
 

 

 

 

[archer]

54 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

Not dying from taking BODY is fundamentally no different from dying from taking BODY and then resurrecting a la Regeneration -- because the end result is the same: you live after taking BODY damage that would otherwise have killed you -- and are effectively unkillable. ( It is for this reason that I assert that not dying from taking a massive amount of BODY is basically just a special effect of Regeneration that has Resurrect capability.  The same is true of limb loss/disablement and regrowth/use.)

 

 

 

Whether they are functionally the same depends on what's happening.

 

You could stand in the exhaust of a space shuttle and take no BODY if you take no BODY. But if you take BODY then regenerate from death, you are 0 DCV, prone, and waiting for your next phase for your regeneration to kick in. Then unless it is a post segment 12 recovery, you lose your whole phase regenerating rather than being able to take other actions. Then after you regenerate, you're still prone until your next phase if I understand correctly.

 

That's potentially a lot of difference, according to what's going on around you.

[Surrealone]

16 minutes ago, archer said:

 

Whether they are functionally the same depends on what's happening.

 

You could stand in the exhaust of a space shuttle and take no BODY if you take no BODY. But if you take BODY then regenerate from death, you are 0 DCV, prone, and waiting for your next phase for your regeneration to kick in. Then unless it is a post segment 12 recovery, you lose your whole phase regenerating rather than being able to take other actions. Then after you regenerate, you're still prone until your next phase if I understand correctly.

 

That's potentially a lot of difference, according to what's going on around you.

 

Sure, but those are nits you're picking.  I say that because when you return back to the context of the examples that were provided (Toon and getting bonked) regarding this topic, there's functionally no difference.  How so?  Well, in Toon, when you run out of hit points (as they are called) you just fall down instead of dying … and then you're out of the game for THREE MINUTES.

 

So, being prone and taking time to Regenerate is absolutely appropriate to a Toon simulation and getting bonked.  If Mr. Taylor actually wanted to stick to the 3 minute timeout imposed by Toon when one is bonked, his Regeneration level could either be lower (less BODY) or slower … or some combination of the two in order to bring the cost down.  But no matter how you slice it, the cartoon character should be taking the equivalent of 'hit points' (which in Hero, is BODY) … and fall down (i.e. be prone) … and be out of commission for a bit.

 

i.e. The Toon character standing in the exhaust of the Space Shuttle would take hit points and eventually fall down … then lay there doing a bunch of nothing for three minutes.

 

The more I think about this, the more I wonder why if Mr. Taylor is trying to model something Toon-like … he's deviating from Toon's use of Hit Points and it's falling down and doing nothing for three minute death replacement.  Taking No Body models neither of those things, IMHO … and your Space Shuttle example is a shining example of why!

[Christopher R Taylor]

No, its not nit picking.  Taking no body is like taking no stun.  You could simulate "Takes No Stun" by buying someone with a huge amount of stun and recovery or self healing but its still suffering stun damage and recovering it instead of taking none at all.  All these arguments people are bringing up are applicable to TNS and yet hey, that power is in the rules, because it simulates a certain kind of build better than a block o' powers!

 

People need to think more generically here, as in the way you build Hero powers and not fixate on Toon.  I only used that as an introduction: here's how the power acts.  Broaden your mind and horizons.  Think a bit: how would you build a character that simply takes no body damage (the way other automotons take no stun!  Its as if we already have a mechanic in the game to compare it to!).  This isn't restricted to the game Toon, okay?

 

Sometimes I think Hero players are like vampires to sunlight when it comes to new ideas: it burnnns!!!!  Make it go away!!!!!

[IndianaJoe3]

In 6e you could buy an arbitrarily large (campaign maximum) amount of Damage Negation and limit it to BODY only (-1/2, or to taste). The character would still have a BODY score, but it would only apply to Transform.

[mallet]

Well an old school way of making a character invulnerable to things (like Fire) was to use the Disolidification power with the limitation "only vs. fire" or something similar. 

You could probably find a way to use that to get another Takes No Body effect.

Like Disolidification Always On, with the special effect that it still looks like you get injured. Then I guess you buy "effects physical world" on your strength. Or something like that. Probably a bunch more Advantages and Limitations on the power and other powers you might have. 

[Lucius]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Now, this would have to cost more than the regeneration ability that prevents death (since it has no method to kill included), but not a lot more because that's all it really does. 

 

That sounds like a good reason, not to charge a high price, but to disallow it altogether.

 

Desolidification must specify a special effect that still hurts. Resurrection must specify some means of permanent death.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A post by Lucius Alexander must have at least one palindromedary in the tagline

[Lucius]

7 hours ago, Surrealone said:

To put that into perspective, Recovering 20 BODY per turn with the ability to Heal Limbs and Resurrect costs … (wait for it) … 345 active points. 

 

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Now do "Takes No Stun"

 

Ok.

 

Takes no STUN:  (Total: 70 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Desolidification , Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Limited Power Only protects against STUN damage (still takes BODy) (-1/2) (Real Cost: 28)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Even if it's not visible, it's here by implication. You're thinking about it aren't you?

[unclevlad]

Using APG, too, you can have Regen per *segment* for 20 points per.

 

I agree that the toon motif doesn't mean "never takes any BODY."  That's not a character power, regardless of the power level.  But if you absolutely insist, something like

 

75% resistant Damage Reduction, only vs. BODY (-1, cuz you're still gonna get stunned into the next administration), PD and ED

3 BODY per segment Regen, with resurrect and limbs

 

That's 145.  So on this path, I'd call it 150 points.  

 

[dsatow]

Toons seem to take body, they just don't die from it.

 

Except of course according to Who Framed Roger Rabbit where they have the Dip.

“Remember how we always thought there wasn't a way to kill a Toon? Well, Doom found a way: turpentine, acetone, benzene. He calls it the Dip!”

―Lt. Santino

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Takes no STUN:  (Total: 70 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Desolidification , Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Limited Power Only protects against STUN damage (still takes BODy) (-1/2) (Real Cost: 28)

 

Wouldn't that work for Takes no Body, too?

 

I'm gonna give up suggesting ideas to debate on here, every time it turns into "here's why that's stupid and you should shut up because its new and that frightens us, precious"

[dsatow]

I think the real question isn't Takes no Body, its true immortality which I think goes against the game system and as Surrealone has mentioned there are ways to do this without creating a new power.  

 

For instance: 

40/40/40/40 resistant x2 hardened x2 impenetrable armor, all or nothing vs BODY.

then add

triggered summons specific being (a living version of self), extra time, must have undissolved remains.

[Lucius]

4 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Wouldn't that work for Takes no Body, too?

 

You're welcome to try. Let me know if you get it past whoever is running the game.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Rather than dignify this

4 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm gonna give up suggesting ideas to debate on here, every time it turns into "here's why that's stupid and you should shut up because its new and that frightens us, precious"

with a response, I'm going to feed it to a palindromedary

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Please delete this post, mods.  Its pointless.

[bluesguy]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm gonna give up suggesting ideas to debate on here, every time it turns into "here's why that's stupid and you should shut up because its new and that frightens us, precious"

 

Chris:  Take this with the sense of humor it is intended to be

 

[Hugh Neilson]

 

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Regeneration causes you to actually take body, you just don't die.  Further, there is a built-in method which can permanently kill you as part of the purchase.

 

If you build Ditzy the Duck cartoon character brought to life in a Champions campaign, its not a campaign feature.  Its a character in a regular superhero setting with a distinct set of powers.

 

Now do "Takes No Stun"

 

OK, what, exactly, are we envisioning?  Does Ditzy take STUN, but not BOD?  Takes No Stun is problematic for a PC because there is now only one way to KO the character in combat - kill the character off.  Sure, he can be entangled, imprisoned, etc., but in typical Hero combat, he cannot be taken out of the fight long-term.

 

If he does take STUN, then this power matters only if Ditzy would take enough BOD to kill him without taking enough STUN to KO him.  If he is KOd anyway, then his massive Regeneration with Resurrection can kick in, and he recovers.  So buy a bunch of extra BOD.  Slap a limitation on this extra BOD.  Let's give Ditzy 15 BOD unlimited, and (say) 25 more with this limitation. 

 

When Ditzy has taken 30+ BOD (i.e. dead without that limited BOD), he is still alive, but can't actually take any actions.  Maybe he's a pancake, or a charred pile of cinders, or crushed under a rock, or cut up into little pieces, or sitting there with a lump on his head, little birdies flying around, with a sign that says "ouch".  The point is, he is not capable of acting - just like any dead character.

 

He needs massive Regeneration to recover from that.  But that means he will recover.  How much regen determines this - maybe he does not recover until the battle is over (like a GM Option KO).  Maybe he uses APG's Regen per Segment and recovers really fast (assuming he is not also at negative STUN).  What works for the game? I will assume you are not looking for a character which can never be taken out of the combat for any meaningful period of time.  That's a deal-breaker for me as a GM, and I suspect most GMs.

 

Now, you will say, "but what if they just keep hacking at him? - he will still die!!"  OK, that will also mean he stays incapable of acting.  That never happens in the cartoons, so we have the two genres colliding, giving us problems.   Tack on Resurrect to his Regen.

 

"But I have to define something that will keep him dead".  Again, true.  Why?  Hero lacks absolutes.  To get an absolute, you need a handwave.

 

Let me ask you "Why are you so worried the GM will target your character for death?"  What is the actual risk of death to a character in a typical 4-colour Supers game?  If it doesn't happen anyway, why does Ditzy need anything beyond that social contract to enforce it?  As a GM, I would be fine with a character who can always recover from death, as this is just a different SFX for the Supers trope that  no one ever really dies.

 

In a more [gritty/dramatic/dark/angsty/realistic] game where death is a meaningful possibility, is a character who is at no risk of death a good fit?  Probably not, so such a power should not exist in such a game.

 

Now, you are likening this to Takes no STUN.  OK.   But note that:

 

 - this is an ability not, as defined, available to PCs at all.  That doesn't mean we can't make an exception, but it is "beyond Stop Sign", so that exception would come only after careful review to assure it will not be game-breaking.

 

 - Takes no STUN massively changes your defenses, largely to ensure the character can and will take BOD, and will not become indestructible.  Takes no BOD requires something similar, perhaps, again to ensure the character cannot be indestructible.

 

So I might be inclined to work out, in this game, how much it would cost for enough extra BOD and Regen to simulate the desired effect, and price Takes No BOD at about that level.  Or maybe the cost of enough extra defenses (or damage negation), over the campaign norm, that we can be pretty confident he will never take BOD, tacking on doubled versions of Hardened, Impenetrable, etc, limited to "only vs BOD".  Having established this incremental cost, we apply the "absolutes rule" and call the resulting cost "Never Takes BOD". 

 

This cost would vary between campaigns, so may not be satisfactory to you, but we could just as easily set it based on a Powerful Supers norm.  No one would pay 120 points for 75% damage reduction in a Fantasy Hero game - spending 120 points on conventional defenses would make them far more invulnerable anyway.  This is an issue all "absolute powers" face, as their costs do not scale with the CP available.

 

Some more "out there" options (maybe to use, or maybe just to price the ability):

 

 - back in the day, I remember using Triggered Summon to simulate resurrection - you Summoned the character back, alive.

 - what if Ditzy paid for Duplication, only one body, x128 duplicates, limited that only one duplicate can act at a time?  Now we have to kill Ditzy 129 times for him to stay dead.  Could still happen, you say?  Probably not before Ditzy earns enough xp to double the duplicates again!

 

Chris, my goal in evaluating these alternate powers is probably going to be viewed as "you are dismissing my power construct as unneeded".  In part, that's fair - if we can build the ability with the existing tools, why do we need a new one?

 

But my goal is more to assess "what should this new ability be worth?"  If I can simulate the ability with other tools, that provides me with a reasonable basis to price the ability as a standalone.  That's Combat Luck, Shrinking, Density Increase and how I persuaded myself that Transfer was not priced right, especially if we added advantages.  It's how Force Field, Armor and Damage Resistance evolved from 1e to 6e, why Figured Characteristics (including CV) mandated decoupling, and why I think INT, PRE and DEX should have the same point costs. 

 

If the benefits of the same points spent are not roughly equivalent, then there is no use having a point-based system at all.

 

Oh, my furthest out approach.  Build Ditzy like any other Super in the game.  Obviously, as a cartoon, he'll have high defenses.  Slap some Regen on there too.  And if, by some mischance, he dies?  If your game is like virtually all games I see, you will build a new character.  So build Ditzy.  The entry of a "new character" identical to the old one (maybe a bit lower-powered if you don't get the same xp) is simply a special effect for the fact that Ditzy cannot be killed.   No point cost at all.

 

BTW, while I do not disagree that resistance to change can be bad, change for the sake of change is no better.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

15 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I'm gonna give up suggesting ideas to debate on here, every time it turns into "here's why that's stupid and you should shut up because its new and that frightens us, precious"

 

What's being said is, as you want to use it, this is not an in-game power;  it's dramatic license.  As such there is no real point value assignable.  

 

 

[archer]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm gonna give up suggesting ideas to debate on here, every time it turns into "here's why that's stupid and you should shut up because its new and that frightens us, precious"

 

People not listening to what you say, being pig-headed, deliberately pretending to misunderstand what you are saying in order to score imaginary debate points, etc. is all part and parcel of discussing anything even slightly controversial on the internet. Go to Breitbart and try talking no-holds-barred politics for an hour or two.

 

I kind of like the idea of "takes no BODY" for an automaton power.

 

Take the pink "Humanoids" that the Hulk's foe The Leader often deploys in droves. They stretch and don't seem to take much damage from melee combat but they break apart if you hit them just right with an energy blast. But the same one that you just broke up will pop right back up and start fighting again. Despite the special effects, that always seemed to me more like they were recovering from being stunned rather than regenerating from death.

 

On the other hand, "takes no BODY" seems like a terrible power for a player to have. A player with that kind of power would take chances which would make Mr. Immortal blush. That'd make it hard as a GM to control the character if he's immune to falling off the largest building in the world, orbital skydiving without a parachute, walking through acid, floating around in outer space without a spacesuit, drowning, etc. You've eliminated a lot of the utility of a ton of powers and skills.

 

At least with the kind of people I've gamed with, you'd have that character, without any fear of permanent harm, tanking the big bad guy while the rest of the team handled the minions. In World of Warcraft terms, the person could tank forever without getting any heals and the worst thing he'd have to worry about is getting stunned for a few moments. That's a little bit over-powered.

 

A beginning player on day one of playing shouldn't be able to walk fearlessly into single combat with Dr. Destroyer.

 

On the other hand, a day one team of new players should very well be able to face Dr. Destroyer's Robo-Annihilator and have to find a way to stop it without being able to do any BODY to it. "Unstoppable" adamantium/prometheum automatons are seen in comics all the time. Force the characters to trap, entangle, drop a building on it, or otherwise find some way to restrain it.

 

I think the power would be best treated like a NND attack in that there should be some secret way for the thing to take BODY damage which the players would have to discover. Maybe it takes damage when exposed to kryptonite, is allergic to bad puns, dissolves in water, etc.

[dmjalund]

He oft ser enough STUN to be unconscoius for a month however.