FH Gripes

[atlascott]

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want, and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage.

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH, because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players, and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers, you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever, eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

 

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

[CourtFool]

Re: FH Gripes

 

The two Fantasy Hero campaigns I ran were killed by the magic wielding characters. That may be why I am so bitter on balancing magic. I really did not encounter the other issues you did.

 

One campaign, I used a home-brewed world. The other, Eberron.

 

I did not have a lot of monsters in my campaigns so I really did not need to lean on the official publications.

 

Obviously, I did not use official campaign setting, so I do not know if my players would have been as unimpressed with them as yours were.

 

None of the characters had outrageous characteristics. In fact, I do not think anyone had anything above a 20.

 

As I have mentioned before I have never had a problem with the length of combat. I play with small groups and run fairly cinematic games, so I expect the PCs to one or two shot the mooks. Combats rarely last longer than a few Turns.

 

Hero is flexible. With that flexibility comes a lot of opportunity for abuse. You can attempt to band-aid each and every rule as your players find and exploit them, but do you really want to be dragged into an arms race? (Note: there is no perfectly balanced system that I am aware of.) Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are frustrated with your powergamers and not so much with the system.

 

Please note this is not meant as an attack on you, your players or the style of game you are running. With the exception of the lack of interest in the official settings, I think you might be able to correct a lot of these problems by having a long heart-to-heart with your players. Of course, if you feel that just changing systems would correct your problems (say, you believe The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned is better balanced), then by all means, play what works for you. I just think trying to house-rule your players into submission will ultimately ruin the game for all involved.

[Choldath]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Point 1. That's Hero System for you. It's not like any other system (except maybe GURPS). You have many more options, all of which are abstract. If you convert from one system to Hero, you need to establish a link. Therefore, more conversion. I read an email that was forwarded to me. It said, don't convert. Work with what you have. Heck, make the Player's convert if you're going to do it. They can wrack their brains on the mechanics while you work on the game.

 

Point 2. And why not? No game system is perfect. Also, WotC is putting out much better game material that is not specific on their game. Frostburn, Dungeoncraft, Fantastic Locations, and even the Campaign Settings are pretty generic.

 

Point 3a. Not everything is meant for every level. Make it more powerful, less powerful, or just use it. Also, not everything should be used against the PCs. Encounters should be searched out by fools or by heroes.

 

Point 3b. Yeah, well, change it. Game resources are just that: resources for games. If you don't like something, change it. If you don't like it to change it, don't use it. Sure, you spent the money, but you also have it as a resource. Campaign Settings have a flavor for everyone. Middle Earth is different from Forgotten Realms. Star Wars is different from Traveller. Dark Matter is different from Dark Champions. Why? Because not everyone likes everything. If we did, then we wouldn't have other game systems.

 

Point 4. That's what all game systems do. Experience is the bane of any game. As your PC "grows up", he gets more powerful. As he becomes more powerful, he fights more powerful enemies.

 

D&D allows for additional abilities, skills, feats, spells, or what have you as time goes on. GURPS is a practical mirror of Hero. Even d6 Star Wars has the same issues.

 

How do you fix it? Well, what do you do when they say that they want to take such and such power/skill? Do you require time for them to learn the process? Do you have them seek out a "master" to improve? You can only become so proficient with a Karate book. Eventually, you will need to dedicate more time, more resources, more determination to become wat you want to be. "Special Effects" are more than the way your EB works.

 

Point 5. Can't help you on that one. The only thing I can suggest is to limit the Reduced Endurance options. Pay close attention to Endurance Reserves. Maybe even have the Reserve tied to the PC so that it costs a little when using it.

 

Point 6. That's the way it's supposed to be.

 

House rules must be run by the players. Plain and simple. If they don't like it, they will gripe. Why? Because it's not in a book. A book is a crutch. It's the manual that tells you how things work. Without order, there is chaos.

 

Think out the house rule process throughly and write them down. Make sure you document the reason for the change and how it should be adjudicated. Don't come up with a House Rule because you don't like something, it makes the Player's feel like they're having their powers taken away from them. If this happens, make sure that they see your point of view and come up with a resonable solution. Communicate with the players to ensure that they're OK with it.

 

Yes, this may sound deconstructive. I don't mean it to be. I don't know how long you've been playing your game, nor how your experience is handed out.

 

If it's a long term game (years, months, what be it), then it may just be growing pains. If it's something in the short term, you may want to re-evaluate your starting points or even how you distribute character points. You may want to hand out character points, at higher levels, further apart. This goes along with the "leveling" of D&D. As you advance, you get less experience for easier challenges. You also take longer to level. Hand out the Character Points after a major "mini boss" encounter or after the a key moment in the game. While this will extend the longevity of the game, it will still run upon your proverbial "wall".

 

Hope this helps.

[Manic Typist]

Re: FH Gripes

 

4- I disagree with.

 

5- Is actually quite interesting.

 

6- I don't entirely understand.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: FH Gripes

 

I think your experience is different from mine. I'm incredibly lazy, throwing together games in a couple of hours per week (maximum), and my players are still experiencing decent threat levels.

 

I've been VERY careful that, if they up a stat, they have a good justification for raising that stat. Above 20, and it had better be a VERY good reason. I encourage buying CSLs before they up the stat they're looking to modify, and my players have been glad to buy the CSLs. Also, they've settled for the standard-level weapons, saving me from having to inform them, "No, there is no sword that powerful."

 

Perhaps it helps that they're newer to the system and are relying on me to guide them, so the game-breaking stuff doesn't even occur to them.

 

But really, a lot of the problems you mention seem to be cut off at the pass with a GM who approves all changes to a character sheet, who tailors the threats more closely to what the party can deal with at any given moment, and who encourages roleplaying one's way out of significant threats. I've been giving my players rewards for avoiding combat, and so they're not as interested in the numbers on the sheet as much as they are in what's going to happen next.

[GreyGuardian]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Solution to insane increases in character strength over too short a period of time - Don't give out so much experience! This is almost always good advice for hero system. If your players can make characters that they are pretty happy with at starting point totals it won't hurt as much to give out only 1 exp for most sessions and maybe 2 if they were especially clever, brave, entertaining etc.

 

Or rigourously control what they can spend exp on - player character has no source to learn the elvish language from then he can't learn it. Let stat maximums be stat maximums - it doesn't matter if joe the barbarian is willing to spend 5 points per point of strength if the character is standard human then in most settings I wouldn't let him go above 20 strength without some sort of external boost (magic, herbs, etc.) which in turn are tightly controlled.

[RPMiller]

Re: FH Gripes

 

I control character inflation in a similar fashion and add an additional tweak.

 

I give fractional EXP. .1, .25, .3, etc. Sometimes I give it to be used for a specific skill, stat, or power. Other times it is general EXP. What this does is allows me to give out EXP fairly frequently giving the players a sense their characters are growing, but by the end of a session they may have gotten only one total EXP point. They can't spend partial EXP points so they have to wait until they get that last .1 EXP to be able to spend it, and they can only spend it on what the EXP was given for, or for what they have done in the game.

 

It means a little bit more record keeping for them, but the trade off is I get much more input that I like since the players begin to learn what earns them EXP and focus on doing those things. It comes down to basic RPG economics, supply and demand. The demand for EXP is high, the supply is small so they have to work at earning it per the treasury's (GM's) guidelines. There is also a chart that they can refer to to see what sort of things earn how much EXP. The big amounts are subjective though - Good In Character Roleplaying = .5 to 1 EXP. You get the idea.

[UltraRob]

Re: FH Gripes

 

There is also a chart that they can refer to to see what sort of things earn how much EXP. The big amounts are subjective though - Good In Character Roleplaying = .5 to 1 EXP. You get the idea.

 

Any chance of us seeing that chart? Please? Pretty please?

 

Rob

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FH Gripes

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers' date=' you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.[/quote']

 

Two good ways to defeat this are: wildly vary the power levels of opponents, such that one encounter is tough to beat with those 5d6 killing attacks and the next gets totally sliced through (makes it boring -- but also don't make anything crucial hinge on this encounter, give them smaller rewards for it, and don't make them burn up too many resources that are difficult to replace), and to change up your opponents so that they're not defeated by the 5d6 killing attacks. Especially if it's not obvious; a Desolid monster with Invisible Power Effects and an attack with Affects Solids can be very nasty. Sure, the players will probably figure it out quickly, but will the characters? (Idea: Double the price of both Desolidification and Affects Desolid.)

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever, eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.

 

Repped for this. I'd go even further with this and, for NPCs, make the first level of unconsciousness be per minute. Bonus: tell the players you're doing this, then follow through, so as to avoid the "I hit him while he's down to keep him unconscious" moments.

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

 

Write up a house rules document and hand it out to them when they start making characters. Tell them everything in here is as black and white as in the book, and that their character sheets will get handed back if they violate anything in it. (Everyone does this, right?)

[Markdoc]

Re: FH Gripes

 

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

 

I agree that it is more work than most (not all) systems - we're playing classic Bushido at the moment and there are so many little extra rules and gotchas hidden in those slim rule books that making up NPCs is actually more work and takes more time than the the Hero equivalent. Don't even mention FGU's "non-light" games (shudder).

 

As for balance, I agree it is something that should be done at the beginning and the best advice is be *conservative* with what you allow. Personally, I have never had a problem, but I have played in plenty of games that imploded because the GM apparently never gave much thought to balance.

 

This is most important with regard to magic - as the Llama says, nothing kills a game faster than an unbalanced magic system. Luckily, there's plenty of good advice on these boards, but it can be easily summed up in one:

If magic users get significant price breaks or their ability to use their spells/powers is not significantly restricted they WILL trash your game.

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want' date=' and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage. [/quote']

 

Not sure I understand this. It's quite easy to present PCs with foes they simply can't hit or hurt - but then that's true of virtually any game system. I agree that the ability to take any source material and be able to convert it realtively readily appeals to me a lot - but it's still extra work.

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH' date=' because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.[/quote']

 

Not sure I agree here. What you say is true, but it's true of almost any game system. What might be a walkover for one party might be total party kill on another depending on their equipment and abilities - and that's true in Runequest and D20 as much as it is in Hero.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players' date=' and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out.[/quote']

 

I agree here. The Valdorian age was OK, but not great and I plan to get Tuala Morn when Iget home. But both are useful to me primarily as source material not a setting to run - they're not visually attractive or supported in the way that Eberron or Iron Kingdoms are.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers' date=' you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.[/quote']

 

40 STR? Is this an anime game? Most FH games use NCM by default which means 40 STR would cost 70 points - a fair chunk o' change. If you change the cost of STR to 2 points per STR (which is highly, highly recommended for FH) then with NCM it costs 140 points, which should sort that problem out.

 

Likewise, what's a 5d6 HKA? A 2 handed sword does 2d6 and making it bigger will not necessarily make it do more damage - your ams are only so long, and no-one of human mass, no matter how strong, could swing a 4 metre long sword effectively. There is no such weapon unless you as GM give away some super magical bennies - and giving away powerful magic items can doom any campaign regardless of system.

 

A last point: I have noticed that most players only spend all their points on CSLs and combat skills if combat is the major focus of the game. Throw in some other challenges and they will spend points on other stuff to be good at that. This is where Hero system excels - there are lots and lots of other things to use points on and a virtually limitless combination of talents, skills and general "stuff"

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever' date=' eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.[/quote']

 

This doesn't parse - if the players are using 5d6 HKAs and routinely killing 3 foes a phase, how can combat possibly be long? You're throwing 300 opponents at them? In general, my experience with combat in FH is that it's relatively short and relatively deadly - I frequently run sessions in one evening where we have 2 -4 fights, occasionally involving a half dozen players and 20+ NPCs, and even combats involving many dozens of NPCs can be done in an a evening. Useful ideas are:

1. Know the rules well so you don't have to waste time looking things up. Fortunately Hero system combat is pretty logical, once you have the basics down, there aren't too many Gotcha!s to look up.

2. Know your NPCs. If you have a lot of them, keep 'em simple and have a rough idea how they will react.

3. Try to get your players to know their characters well too, so that they know what they can do. Strangely, it's not that important that they know the combat rules welll (although that helps) since if the GM knows the rules the players can just say what they do and the GM can translate.

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

 

Generally I'd agree, but it's not actually crucial. Since I have group of newbies, I am running without END. I have explained the concept and the players know I plan to introduce it at the end of the current story arc, but I don't expect that to have too much effect on play - high END use characters tend to buy reduced END eventually.

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

 

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

 

I don't know what your house rules are - but to some extent, players will chafe at any house rules. I have a few, but my house rules on house rules are:

1. Have as few as possible. Never make a house rule because you think it would be "cool" and never make a house rule without considering the effect on other powers and other characters.

2. Explain to the players - in advance - WHY you are maiking the change, not just what it is.

 

Hope that helps.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FH Gripes

 

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

Agreed. The corollary is you get out of it what you put into it. A well tuned FH campaign can be the very best Fantasy game a group ever experiences on the strength of the systems flexibility and the GM's (and players) abilities to use the system to express their ideas.

 

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want, and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage.

Agreed.

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH, because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.

Agreed.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players, and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out.

Agreed.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers, you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.

I haven't had this problem in the slightest. However, I have no issues saying "NO".

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever, eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.

Disagree. While this is one method to do this, I wouldn't say its the only or best method.

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

Agreed; END is important in Fantasy.

 

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

I've had a few players over the years with this problem, but I've always made it clear that while I take feedback between before or after games I don't take backtalk during a game.

 

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

Yes, I've run many long term Fantasy HERO games over the last 11 or 12 years. I've shared a good deal of advice on the subject on these boards, and my website over the years...check out http://www.killershrike.com/fantasyhero for more info.

[Eosin]

Re: FH Gripes

 

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

 

This can be a problem if the builds get out of hand. In part it is a matter of not drawing an unlucky (unwieldy) combination during character creation i.e. the 20 DEX, 4 SPD, Martial Artist picking up a big shield.

 

2. You can use whatever source materials you want' date=' and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage. [/quote']

 

True, but this applies in any game system. I don't find this too difficult to do on the fly for imported characters (I used a few Masterminds and Madmen characters in the last FH session).

 

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH' date=' because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.[/quote']

 

True, very true. This is why I design my own or build them after reading about them in whatever book or system they come from. Thankfully, I run a human centric style campaign with very few monster type things.

 

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players' date=' and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out. [/quote']

 

I think most of us run our own setting. It is the hallmark of a hero gamer. That said, there are plenty of settings out there that might work for you. The Hero aspect is only the rules - you can graft the rules onto most settings without much difficulty. If I ever wanted to run something a little different I might consider Birthright, 7th Sea, Fantasy Star Wars, or Midnight as a setting.

 

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers' date=' you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.[/quote']

 

You got a real problem here, most especially if you are running around with 8 rPD as the max. In my experience, design of the weapons, armor, and spell systems are the three critical areas to keep a game from folding and once you design it expect to need a little tinkering when it comes into contact with the PCs who will exploit a hole you never thought about.

 

If people are lobbing 5d6 HKAs you need around 16 rPD and somewhere in the vicinity of 20 PD to minimize the one punch nature of fantasy. My theory on this is that weapons base damage should max at about 2d6 so that the total max damage is 4d6 and that should be rare. Your toughest armor should turn the BODY aspects of this aside slightly more than 50% of the time (8 or 9 rPD). PD, IMO, tend to be a wee bit too low in FH with most PCs needing around 6 and tanks doing well with 12 PD.

 

The question here, aside from the weapons and armor, would be how many points are the characters built on and how many XP do they have. Generally, I think FH is best started at the 50 + 50 level but 25/25 or 75/75 can also work depending on what you want out of the tone. Then 2-3 XP per session should keep you on track for a year or so of regular playing. As mentioned, numerous encounters which require combat skills promote their value while encounter which require interaction skills, perk, and knowledge likewise promote the value of these non-combat skills.

 

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever' date=' eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.[/quote']

 

I don't have this problem at all.

 

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

 

It is important for some characters to keep track of END - mages, huge brutes, and other massive END burners but in general most characters can just figure out how many Phases they can operate without an additional recovery and go from there.

 

Anyway' date=' some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system. [/quote']

 

Hero seems infinitively morphable to players but it shouldn't be. Genres and settings demand that certain cliches be adopted into the rules. You wouldn't let Elminster play in an Arthurian setting and you shouldn't let other characters who don't belong into the setting have free reign. Tell the players that this is a (for example) "Conan-esque game and only characters who fit within that setting will be allowed. Here are a few NPCs to get an idea of what kinds of characters work well with what I am planning on running."

 

So, here are my gems of insight.

 

• Codify your weapons, armor, and magic system.
  
• Start the game at 50 + 50
  
• Pick a reference for the players to identify with (Conan, Greek Heroes, Westeros, ect...)
  
• Use NCM but don't be a slave to it.
  
• Run a game that encourages non-combat skills as much as it encourages a high DEX.
  
• Retain the right to revise setting specific rules as needed for game balance.
  
• Tell the players what you want the game to feel like and what you hope to get out of the game - they will work harder at preserving something that they feel will last.
  
• Ditch Deadly Blow and watch Combat Luck like a hawk.
  

[Manic Typist]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Also, feel free to say NO.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FH Gripes

 

I actually like the "monster" and "enemy" books for FH better than those for most other games, because if they don't work for your particular campaign/setting as written they're relatively easy to modify. Since everything about them is statted up and costed on their character sheets, it's simple to add or remove abilities, increase or decrease Speed, Damage Classes, Defense etc. until you have something that will work. If you own Hero Designer that process would take only a few minutes, even less if you have a Character Pack for HD with the desired creature writeup.

[RPMiller]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Honestly you should make your own to fit your desires as a GM, but here's what I have to give you some ideas.

 

Discover a small clue to the overall adventure .1 generic

Roll a 3 with a skill .1 only for that skill

Defeat a minor adversary by killing him .2 generic

Use a characteristic in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that char

Use a power in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that power

Use a skill in a unique and/or creative way .2 only for that skill

Discover a major clue to the overall adventure .25 generic

Come up with an idea the GM didn't anticipate .3 generic

Give the GM a useful plot hook .3 generic

Defeat a minor adversary by subduing him .4 generic

Defeat a major adversary by killing him .5 generic

Complete the adventure unsuccessfully .75 generic

Achieve a character goal 1 generic

Complete the adventure successfully 1 generic

Defeat a major adversary by subduing him 1 generic

[LordGhee]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Hey Rpmiller is that really a tenth of a point award (ect)

 

great list rep

 

Lord Ghee

[ThothAmon]

Re: FH Gripes

 

I haven't experienced most of these gripes. The magic system one is valid but then magic, by it's nature, tends to upset the orthodox rules.

 

I'd suggest to the OP that he could do with revising his gaming style if these are real problems for him. Any heroic game PCs packing 5d6 KA are pretty much in munchkin territory. If players cough up the points for this level of combat ability then they will expect to use it. What happened to roleplaying and GM control of character design and character growth?

[RPMiller]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Hey Rpmiller is that really a tenth of a point award (ect)

 

great list rep

 

Lord Ghee

Yes, sure is. See my post higher up as to why I do it that way.

 

In a nutshell it allows me to bombard my players with experience and encourages them to do those things listed. Yet the character growth is kept in check. So it is a win-win. The players have the constant feeling of character growth (much like a video game actually) and I don't have to worry about characters becoming god-like in short order.

 

EDIT: By the way, thank you to everyone that bombarded me with rep. I've posted this idea many times, but this is the first time I got such overwhelming kudos.

[Rapier]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Most of this has nothing to do with FH. It's a given with a non-level based system.

 

In d20 you start out at level 1 sucking mud. You get your butt whooped by toddlers and stray poodles. You earn some XP and eventually make your way to level 8 when you start to fight ogres and trolls. When you hit level 20 maybe you take on a dragon. The monsters are more scaled.

 

In Hero, there is no concept of level. You can start the game as a fully realised character. There is not, necessarily, a ranking of monsters from wimpy to really powerful (like you would get with a level, threat rating or hit dice comparison).

 

Yes, creating your own campaign is a lot of work. Heck, GMing on its own is a lot of work. It's very easy to get quite a bit of stat creep. Don't let your players spend points willy nilly whenever they want. My players may joke about "nobody speaks Chinese? Hold on while I spend 3 XP," but they know that I'm just not going to let them pull understanding of an entire language out of their butt. New powers and skills take time to develop, and there is nothing wrong with requiring your players to take that time or rationalise how they are getting that skill or power.

 

It's going to be hard to learn computer programming wandering around in the desert.

[Vondy]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Welcome to the DOS prompt of the gaming world.

[Rapier]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Welcome to the DOS prompt of the gaming world.

 

I'm SO jonesing for a game of Oregon Trail.

[Kristopher]

Re: FH Gripes

 

I haven't experienced most of these gripes. The magic system one is valid but then magic, by it's nature, tends to upset the orthodox rules.

 

I'd suggest to the OP that he could do with revising his gaming style if these are real problems for him. Any heroic game PCs packing 5d6 KA are pretty much in munchkin territory. If players cough up the points for this level of combat ability then they will expect to use it. What happened to roleplaying and GM control of character design and character growth?

 

I started thinking along those lines when the mention of 40 STR for Fantasy Hero human characters came up.

[Old Man]

Re: FH Gripes

 

And yet only Hero is capable of handling such a wide range of power levels so smoothly. 40 STR would be appropriate for a high-magic or mythic scale game.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FH Gripes

 

Welcome to the DOS prompt of the gaming world.

 

And that is sig-worthy.

[LordGhee]

Re: FH Gripes

 

RP you posted this before?

 

Guess I am going to have to read your post more often:)

 

Lord Ghee