No place for a cleric?

[Mr. R]

While perusing my Adventurers Club booklets I cam across an article I think I will use for my version of clerics.  It is from Issue 25 "Help from Above" by John Ward.

 

Synopsis:

There are two flavours 1) Clerics   2) Pawns

 

For clerics they get a VPP with the following

- 0-phase action to change (+1)

- No skill roll (+1)

- Under deity's control (-2)

- Limited powers (-1/2)

- Concentrate 1/2 DCV (-1/4)

 

Then an End Reserve 

- End reserve has a max of 100 

- Only for deity (-2)

 

Recovery

- Max 3

- Must pray at DCV 0 for 5 minute (-1 1/2)

 

So a 20 point pool with 40 End and a 3 Rec will cost 28 + 1 +1 = 30

 

 

 

 

Pawns 

 

VPP pool as above but replace Concentrate with an Act roll.  In addition you will take a Watched Complication.  The Watched chance will match the Act Roll.  So watched 14- also means Act Roll 14-

 

End Reserve 

- Max is 50

- Only for deity (-2)

 

Recovery 

- No limit

- Must have served deity's interest (-1)

 

So a 15 point pool with an Act 14- with 30 End and 9 Rec will cost 21 + 1 + 4 = 26  BUT they also have a Watched at 14- (the deity)

 

 

 

OK give me ways this could be abused, any other suggestions or helpful comments.

 

PS I realize that at higher points and use of a Ritual limitation  and / or Window of Opportunity could make for some obscene abilities.  But that also means a VPP of around 90 points.  That in and of itself means a lot of power!

 

 

 

[Spence]

32 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

- Under deity's control (-2)

 

This will be a problem with a large chunk of players out there.  In most on the non-Hero games with "clerics", the player is free to do what they want with their spells/powers and the whole staying the good graces of the deity is just lip service.  Even Paladins frequently are played murder-hobo.

 

But in Hero a -2 indicates a pretty serious level of interference.   I can just hear the moaning and wailing about player agency and GM railroading.....aaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh

 

[Mr. R]

1 hour ago, Spence said:

 

This will be a problem with a large chunk of players out there.  In most on the non-Hero games with "clerics", the player is free to do what they want with their spells/powers and the whole staying the good graces of the deity is just lip service.  Even Paladins frequently are played murder-hobo.

 

But in Hero a -2 indicates a pretty serious level of interference.   I can just hear the moaning and wailing about player agency and GM railroading.....aaaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh

 

 

 

So what would you suggest be an acceptable level, or an alternative to indicate that sometimes the god is going to give him NOTHING because it doesn't serve his aims?

[assault]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

But in Hero a -2 indicates a pretty serious level of interference. 

 

This is true. It's a most of the time level Limitation, which borders on "might as well not bother" territory.

[Christopher R Taylor]

How much control over their abilities does the priest have? 

 

Are they utterly unable to call on anything specific, or reliably use their special powers?  That's probably worth -2: it works when the GM decides what and when it does work, and never on command like a base unconscious control limitation.

 

Are they able to call reliably on something but cannot control what the results will be?  That's worth a -1: the lesser unconscious control limtation.

 

Does it generally work, but requires their deity to be paying attention?  That might be as simple as a Skill Roll: whoops, rolled an 18, Arioch was out eating lunch.  That's a -½ or so.  But it also might be tougher, because the deity is often distracted or prevented by a rival or enemy from accessing their priest.

 

Is it reliable unless they have done something in particular to annoy their deity? That probably isn't worth a lot, since its pretty easy for a half capable role player to stay in the lanes, maybe a -¼

 

You can use the rules for Requires a Roll to estimate the limitation value: how often on average is this likely to succeed?

[Spence]

3 hours ago, Mr. R said:

 

 

So what would you suggest be an acceptable level, or an alternative to indicate that sometimes the god is going to give him NOTHING because it doesn't serve his aims?

I'm not so much suggesting that you shouldn't do this as much as suggesting that you choose your players carefully. 

 

I wouldn't have an issue playing a PC with those restrictions.  But then I believe that the GM's right to design their campaign is equally important as a players right to play their characters. 

 

But many players today believe that everything is secondary to their whims, and just the idea that a GM would try to enforce a character acting as designed would be considered beyond the pale.  I have seen players storm out of a game because the GM wouldn't let their LG Paladin torture villagers for information.

 

If you are going to actually require players of religious characters to comply with the tenets of their dieties in game, be prepared for push back.  Unless you have a good group that can actually understand what a RPG is.

[Greywind]

Clerics and paladins should have a "Subject to Orders" complication/disadvantage to reflect when they are doing/going to do their god's bidding.

[Mr. R]

10 hours ago, assault said:

 

This is true. It's a most of the time level Limitation, which borders on "might as well not bother" territory.

 

 

You guys are right.  A -2 Limitation is like and Act 8-!  

 

Maybe instead more of an equivalent to Act 11 or 12-!  

 

I don't want them to feel persecuted, but I don't want the Paladin mentioned above either!

8 hours ago, Spence said:

  I have seen players storm out of a game because the GM wouldn't let their LG Paladin torture villagers for information.

 

 

 

 

I remember a friend describing his player for a Palladium game and commenting he always chooses Aberrant for his alignment so he can be considered trustworthy but still be able to torture people if he wanted to!  

 

Still makes me shiver!

[Ninja-Bear]

I also heard that this is why some players try to get to be Grey Jedi. So they can be good while also being bad if wanted.  I won’t give you an auto Dark Side Point for using TK but no Grey Jedi. You’re either Light or Dark. Hmmm….Jedi Force Powers are probably worth -1/4. I have a buddy whose playing Failed Jedi and we have fun. 

[indy523]

I think that in Fantasy Hero one has the option to step away from the paradigms of D&D and handle things differently.

Clerics or Divine magic might be one of them.

 

First off one would not have to be a cleric or ordained priest of God or a god depending on your game to cast divine spells.  Spells that heal or control the undead or drive out demons or many of the things we associate with a Priest could be learned and cast by anyone.  The spells themselves would be relatively easy to learn as opposed to a mage's spell. To create magic a mage has to invent it, learn the formula, collect the correct materials, place them in the right order, speak the power words in the correct cadence etc.  All of this requires intelligence and maybe a strong internal will to control the magic (EGO or PRE in Hero system).

 

Divine magic and spells would work differently.  The formula might exist but it would not be something that was invented or thought out.  Instead it would be essentially a prayer.  Their might be formula and materials but they would not necessarily have a correct order measured out scientifically.  Instead they require a person who is devout, who is calling upon the magic for a holy purpose and might not even be asking for a defined effect,  The divine caster might utter a prayer for guidance in handling their enemy.  This might be a bonus number of skill levels usable for a set time or an aid to STR or some similar effect but it might also be a storm slowing the enemy down or the cleric given a bonus to a Persuasion skill at the right time if they attempt to sue for a truce.  The cleric or saint or devout lay person may not know what the effect will be.

 

In this regard much of "divine magic" would be a Variable power pool with a limitation no conscious control at the -1 level.  You can call for it but you have no control over what it will be.

 

This would mean that maybe there are only a few actual spells a "cleric" could learn and cast by praying for it and the rest is based on a plea to the deity with required skill rolls etc.

 

You could even state that every devout person has a faith pool at a minimum level that is difficult to get to work but can do anything the DM requires when needed.  Players who want some control over it could be more devout and thus buy off limitations or gain a Faith Power Skill to get better at controlling it and maybe one or two effects they can use without need for rolls as they see fit so long as they follow a psychological limitation to keep the faith and not go against their god or GOD. 

[Mr. R]

13 hours ago, indy523 said:

I think that in Fantasy Hero one has the option to step away from the paradigms of D&D and handle things differently.

Clerics or Divine magic might be one of them.

 

First off one would not have to be a cleric or ordained priest of God or a god depending on your game to cast divine spells.  Spells that heal or control the undead or drive out demons or many of the things we associate with a Priest could be learned and cast by anyone.  The spells themselves would be relatively easy to learn as opposed to a mage's spell. To create magic a mage has to invent it, learn the formula, collect the correct materials, place them in the right order, speak the power words in the correct cadence etc.  All of this requires intelligence and maybe a strong internal will to control the magic (EGO or PRE in Hero system).

 

Divine magic and spells would work differently.  The formula might exist but it would not be something that was invented or thought out.  Instead it would be essentially a prayer.  Their might be formula and materials but they would not necessarily have a correct order measured out scientifically.  Instead they require a person who is devout, who is calling upon the magic for a holy purpose and might not even be asking for a defined effect,  The divine caster might utter a prayer for guidance in handling their enemy.  This might be a bonus number of skill levels usable for a set time or an aid to STR or some similar effect but it might also be a storm slowing the enemy down or the cleric given a bonus to a Persuasion skill at the right time if they attempt to sue for a truce.  The cleric or saint or devout lay person may not know what the effect will be.

 

In this regard much of "divine magic" would be a Variable power pool with a limitation no conscious control at the -1 level.  You can call for it but you have no control over what it will be.

 

This would mean that maybe there are only a few actual spells a "cleric" could learn and cast by praying for it and the rest is based on a plea to the deity with required skill rolls etc.

 

You could even state that every devout person has a faith pool at a minimum level that is difficult to get to work but can do anything the DM requires when needed.  Players who want some control over it could be more devout and thus buy off limitations or gain a Faith Power Skill to get better at controlling it and maybe one or two effects they can use without need for rolls as they see fit so long as they follow a psychological limitation to keep the faith and not go against their god or GOD. 

 

 

I like that.  And I think that is the feel the original author wanted as well.  I don't want the "every person" to get a VPP, but that clerics and pawns (c'mon they are champions, at least to the god in question) seem to have a link to the god in question.

 

The clerical side is for someone who has attracted the deity's attention from within the church.  The later is someone outside the church the deity uses for "plausible deniability' (yes deities have Impossible Mission operatives).  Fafard, the Grey Mouser, Elric, Corum, even the Count of Monte Cristo, are all of the pawn side!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

This would mean that maybe there are only a few actual spells a "cleric" could learn and cast by praying for it and the rest is based on a plea to the deity with required skill rolls etc.

 

I originally was leaning to this concept but then realized how much work it would be for the GM to have the abilities written up (or come up with them on the fly), to keep it balanced, and to in part play the priest's class in addition to running the game.

[Spence]

21 hours ago, indy523 said:

I think that in Fantasy Hero one has the option to step away from the paradigms of D&D and handle things differently.

Clerics or Divine magic might be one of them.

 

First off one would not have to be a cleric or ordained priest of God or a god depending on your game to cast divine spells.  Spells that heal or control the undead or drive out demons or many of the things we associate with a Priest could be learned and cast by anyone.  The spells themselves would be relatively easy to learn as opposed to a mage's spell. To create magic a mage has to invent it, learn the formula, collect the correct materials, place them in the right order, speak the power words in the correct cadence etc.  All of this requires intelligence and maybe a strong internal will to control the magic (EGO or PRE in Hero system).

 

Divine magic and spells would work differently.  The formula might exist but it would not be something that was invented or thought out.  Instead it would be essentially a prayer.  Their might be formula and materials but they would not necessarily have a correct order measured out scientifically.  Instead they require a person who is devout, who is calling upon the magic for a holy purpose and might not even be asking for a defined effect,  The divine caster might utter a prayer for guidance in handling their enemy.  This might be a bonus number of skill levels usable for a set time or an aid to STR or some similar effect but it might also be a storm slowing the enemy down or the cleric given a bonus to a Persuasion skill at the right time if they attempt to sue for a truce.  The cleric or saint or devout lay person may not know what the effect will be.

 

In this regard much of "divine magic" would be a Variable power pool with a limitation no conscious control at the -1 level.  You can call for it but you have no control over what it will be.

 

This would mean that maybe there are only a few actual spells a "cleric" could learn and cast by praying for it and the rest is based on a plea to the deity with required skill rolls etc.

 

You could even state that every devout person has a faith pool at a minimum level that is difficult to get to work but can do anything the DM requires when needed.  Players who want some control over it could be more devout and thus buy off limitations or gain a Faith Power Skill to get better at controlling it and maybe one or two effects they can use without need for rolls as they see fit so long as they follow a psychological limitation to keep the faith and not go against their god or GOD. 

 

A lot of good ideas, but would they work in game for the players?  Getting a player to play their PC by the concept that they and the GM agreed to (alignments, etc) is hard enough.  But now we completely remove a major part of the character and have the GM play it.  How many general gamers would want to play a PC that they essentially do not control?

 

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I originally was leaning to this concept but then realized how much work it would be for the GM to have the abilities written up (or come up with them on the fly), to keep it balanced, and to in part play the priest's class in addition to running the game.

 

This too.  A GM already has a lot on their plates. 

[indy523]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

 But now we completely remove a major part of the character and have the GM play it.  How many general gamers would want to play a PC that they essentially do not control?

 

 

This too.  A GM already has a lot on their plates. 

I don't see it that way.

 

Essentially the reason for the uncontrolled VPP is that every devout worshipper has the ability to call on their god for help and maybe they will get it.  This would be a -2L uncontrolled, player or NPC has no control over it.  Add a few more limitations like an RSR to even get the deity's attention and limitations on where and when it can asked such as only in a church or never on the lands dedicated to an enemy deity etc. and the power does not have to cost a lot of points at all.  Essentially the GM could include this as part of the everyman skills.  It is not there to empower the players but to drive plot points so if the players understand this then it should be fine.  Essentially just before a TPK every player should be calling out to their deity for assistance and this gives the GM an out not to end the campaign or not!

 

Every player wishing to play a cleric can buy certain powers that always work which are based on their deity.  There could even be a package of divine magic the cleric has to buy to be a chosen one of their god.  So maybe a MP with Healing, Blessings (Aid, temp combat levels or even temporary Luck), Cleansing the ability to consecrate land or drive out evil demons possessing people) etc.  The player could then add one or two more powers to the MP as well.  It is based on prayer so may a PRE based RSR to activate it, etc.  GM could give bonuses or penalties to this role based on how well they follow their faith, etc.  This would be the base powers.

 

For the VPP however the chosen one can up the level of the points in the pool and control.  The uncontrolled -2L can be bought down to a -1L where the power can be activated by the player but the effect is unknown.  The player could even lessen it to say a -1/2L and deem that to mean that they can decide the type of effect ahead of time too i.e. blast the enemies or change environment to call rain etc.  These should always have a Pow skill to activate.  This gives the GM some control over what happens.  So long as the effect benefits the player in some way he can get creative and move story plot along.  It becomes a tool.  The player if they are smart will be happy for the random effect as it gives them an ability to affect a situation even when out of resources. 

 

The GM can explain to the player, the less you use it or the more you use it for the benefit of others such as lay people, the poor, the sick etc. the more likely you are to get good continuous results.  The more you use it as a combat tool the less likely for it to remain useful.  Essentially the limitations on the VPP give the player access to powers above their pay grade.  That comes at a price.  Overuse it and they might use up their god's favor in them.

 

Also it allows the player to play a holy man.  If they encounter a leper and only have basic healing they could heal damage but not the affliction.  With this they can have a discussion with the leper and if they are deemed worthy call on their deity who  then heals the leper.  The chosen one then gets more followers because they are known as a miracle worker.  Explain to the player this is the point of the uncontrolled VPP and I think they will go along with it.  Plus a good GM can always ask the player first what is it you want and then decide on a course of action that is a compromise.  So long as the player understands the point of this extra power and it is limited to the point that they are not dropping too much RP into it this could work and good players will learn to make use of it.

 

PS:  I say Chosen One because most priests are probably glorified clerks or salesman for the religion.  Their actual ability to perform miracles or do magic is probably non existent.  The Chosen One is the person the god grants powers too because they have a high faith (or are a PC with the points to buy it).  This can be an ordained Priest or a lay person, it would depend on the god and the faith.

 

The way I see it so long as the base powers they can always do are useful and the player can rely on them then they will see the VPP as just flavor but flavor that could save them if they need it.  

[Opal]

In D&D the Cleric is a bit of an aberration, or system artifact.  It's not something that immediately jumps out when you thought about pre-D&D fantasy genres, in which healing would be a either a big deal (quest for the blue rose to save the King from the assassin's rare & deadly poison) or a throwaway detail ("You're wounded. We have a flower in Colchis which heals and soothes..."), not the prime contribution of a main character who is doing it in every scene.

 

D&D hit points do capture the dynamics of a cinematic battle, in which the monster comes on strong, the hero reels, recovers, and goes on to vanquish it.  They do it with the Cleric class or healing potion as a sort of ugly kludge, but they do it, and very successfully over many years. (briefly, D&D came up with a less ugly kludge in which a new class called a 'Warlord' helped the party rally with inspiration instead of divine intervention, but that's fallen by the wayside).

 

Bottom line, though, Hero has STN & REC, so you don't need a D&D-style healer to get that same heroic dynamic.

[Ninja-Bear]

36 minutes ago, Opal said:

Bottom line, though, Hero has STN & REC, so you don't need a D&D-style healer.

 

The Barbadian with 14 Body in the last Fantasy Hero game I played disagrees. I ended up killing him. Some was to bad rolls and some was I tried stuff just to see how it would work. He did get an epic death though. He sacrificed himself to kill the head Orc. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Just thinking that if you used more detailed rules of damage, a Cleric could be even more useful for healing. A cleric could be valuable for healing broken bones and curing poison and disease. Or even cure a withered limb. Yes you recover your Body but that doesn’t mean that you broken limb is healed properly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Healing END in combat can be very useful, if a GM is smart enough to use the 1 END/5 STR rule.  And healing stun in combat is pretty darn handy too.  Plus if as Ninja Bear notes, you use impairing and disabling rules having a priest to heal that stuff can be very welcome.

[Chris Goodwin]

Depending on campaign, I'd almost prefer requiring a combination of mundane medicine (i.e. setting a bone) before applying magical healing. Otherwise you could recover the BODY but have it heal "wrong".  

 

 

[Spence]

Lots of good stuff.

But in the end I believe people are reading too much into it. 

 

Cleric was one of the original "classes" for a game that had just invented the concept. 

There were only Fighting Men, Clerics and Magic Users. 
With the game heavily influenced by straight up grognard wargaming I really doubt that very much if any of the mental gymnastics usually hinted at ever happened.

Things were just as straight forward as the books text. 

Fighting Man - Ugh hack

Magic User - merlin blastum

Cleric - a little heals and smack me some undead. 

 

I remember the first D&D game I played in The Bunker in Texas in 1975.  I remember the year because it was the Bicentennial and Fort Hood had some very cool demonstrations and parades.   That was back in the day when a Army units were two or three times the size of a modern unit.

 

Anyway, we made characters and got pretty beat up by some skeletons and then TPK'd by a sabre-tooth tiger that found us before we could heal up.  

We were blown away by the whole Play Character concept.  Up till then we had only played historical miniatures and counter based wargames.   The idea of playing an individual hero in a story was mind boggling at the time.

 

50+ years later we pick it apart based on thousands of RPG books and years of hind sight and add in interpretations that literally didn't exist. 

 

It is like the THACO thread. 

Every RPG system in existence that includes any die rolling has their version of THACO.  Period. 

THACO was simply the reference point from which all to hit calculation were based.  THACO was simply the first RPG one and borrowed a lot from wargames of the time.

Heck Hero references its system at 11 or less and uses DCV and OCV to modify the chance of a hit instead of AC modified by Class driven to hit. 

 

Sometimes there is not an ulterior motive and things are actually what they appear to be.   

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

 

50+ years later we pick it apart based on thousands of RPG books and years of hind sight and add in interpretations that literally didn't exist. 

 

 

 

If it helps, I didn't like it in the seventies, either.

 

 

 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

If it helps, I didn't like it in the seventies, either.

 

 

 

Fair enough. 

I know a lot of people that never liked D&D, but jumped in with both feet for the plethora of other games that quickly followed.

Before Hero, Traveller was one of my favorite games and the first in scout campaign we played was spectacular.  And I think ruined me for the settings that are fleshed out such as the Imperium.  

[Duke Bushido]

Yep.

 

I am a Traveller player from way back. 

 

I also enjoyed the few Fantasy Trip games I was able to sit in on, but I always thought D&D was just a bunch of disjointed garbage.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Yep.

 

I am a Traveller player from way back. 

 

I also enjoyed the few Fantasy Trip games I was able to sit in on, but I always thought D&D was just a bunch of disjointed garbage.

 

 

Well it probably is. However (you knew that was coming!) I noticed that with this rule set or any rule set, if I just go with it and the rest of the players do too then the mechanics take a back seat to the fun. Oh yes weird things happens with this rule set and others BUT when the group is having fun then an alchemy takes place and we’ll it’s enjoyable. I find that it’s less about the rules and more about the group-both players and GM.

[Mr. R]

In my neck of the woods the go to game was PFRPG (Windsor is right across from Detroit)  So Palladium was a huge influence on the Windsor gaming scene.  And I will admit the PFRPG was a bit of fresh air compared to AD&D 2nd ed. with skills and different magics.  With a good DM it was great.  But with a bad DM it was terrible!