No place for a cleric?

[DShomshak]

To me, bare mechanics don't feel magical. Neither does resource management -- and from the beginning, D&D has been very much a game of resource management (gold, hit points, spell slots). The magic comes with the description and context. This is why all the writing about magic I've done for HERO spends so much word count on defining how a style of magic works, what it can and can't do, and describing each spell.

 

Since we're talking clerics as heal-bots, let's take the basic cure wounds spell. It doesn't matter whether this is defined as "3d6 BODY Aid" or "Restores hit points equal to 1d8 + spellcasting ability modifier." It's just a game resource.

 

If I want magic -- no, a miracle -- I might start with a myth how the gods shaped the first mortals from clay and breathed life into them. (It's a classic, go with it.) So a cleric who heals someone touches the person and says, "From clay were you made; to clay now return, that the Maker's hand shall repair you." And the area around the wound briefly turns into clay that flows back together before returning to intact flesh.

 

Okay, players won't want to describe this every time. But just describing it once might help convey a sense that the character isn't just a resource to manage.

 

I should note that the very latest D&D supplement, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, suggests letting players customize the descriptions of their characters' spells, to make characters more distinctive. For instance, a sorcerer (wild talent spellcaster, more or less) who's a farmer. When he casts magic missile, he evokes chickens of magical force that fly at his targets to scratch and peck. A refreshingly HERO-ish attitude, I think!

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

I've always been struck by the difference in the write-ups for published spells in Hero Games fantasy books for Fourth Edition versus Fifth/Sixth Edition. I know many folks dislike how in the former the spells are grouped into "spell colleges," but each college feels unique and colorful to me. All the spells in a college are linked with SFX, but although the mechanics of certain spells are nearly identical college to college, the way they're described feels so different. Each college discusses the philosophy behind it, details how a magician moves and speaks while casting spells, the fine details of the material components, what each spell looks and sounds and feels like, why the side effects of a miscast spell are the way they are, how small changes in circumstances would interact with the SFX, and so on. The spells have a flavor, almost a personality, all their own.

 

The 5E+ spells (grouped in "arcana," essentially another label for "college") are so much drier. They concentrate on game mechanics, and to their credit offer more variations of spells for greater power, speed, ease of use, etc.; but the SFX, although present, are laid on pretty thinly, and philosophy is almost nonexistent. The situational nature of the SFX are also mostly left to the imagination of the GM/player.

 

IMHO the 4E spells are a fine example of how to make Hero mechanics fully unique from one example to another. I always try to add more of that flavor to every spell, weapon, superpower that I write.

[Mr. R]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I've always been struck by the difference in the write-ups for published spells in Hero Games fantasy books for Fourth Edition versus Fifth/Sixth Edition. I know many folks dislike how in the former the spells are grouped into "spell colleges," but each college feels unique and colorful to me. All the spells in a college are linked with SFX, but although the mechanics of certain spells are nearly identical college to college, the way they're described feels so different. Each college discusses the philosophy behind it, details how a magician moves and speaks while casting spells, the fine details of the material components, what each spell looks and sounds and feels like, why the side effects of a miscast spell are the way they are, how small changes in circumstances would interact with the SFX, and so on. The spells have a flavor, almost a personality, all their own.

 

 

 Since I plan to use Killer Shrikes' Metier and Runemaster for magics I will make sure the caster defines their spell when they buy it.  So a 9d6 EB could be a fire bolt from one mage and a lightning bolt from another even if they use the same style of magic.  Want a different SFX, buy it again with the new effect.  

 

Want a rune that entangles?  Great!  HOW?  Webs?  Earthen Grasp?  Define when you buy the rune.

1) Rune of the Spider's Grasp

2) Rune of Earthen Hands

[Christopher R Taylor]

I liked the spell college thing a lot too, and more, I liked the staged levels of "you can't learn this level of power until you get some of the lower powered stuff".

 

For years now I've been trying to work out a way of building a power framework that does just that.  It would be ideal for a ton of builds, such as martial arts.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Mr. R said:

 Since I plan to use Killer Shrikes' Metier and Runemaster for magics I will make sure the caster defines their spell when they buy it.  So a 9d6 EB could be a fire bolt from one mage and a lightning bolt from another even if they use the same style of magic.  Want a different SFX, buy it again with the new effect.  

 

Want a rune that entangles?  Great!  HOW?  Webs?  Earthen Grasp?  Define when you buy the rune.

1) Rune of the Spider's Grasp

2) Rune of Earthen Hands

 

Sure, but -- no offense intended -- that's still a pretty basic approach. Let me give you an example of the "Earth College," from the Fourth Edition Fantasy Hero genre book.

 

    Earth, though the most solidly physical of the four elements (earth, fire, air, and water), is perhaps the least glamorous of the Elemental Colleges.
   Stoicism is emphasized. Spell casting gestures are choppy or simple static poses. The concentration required makes the wizard an easier target in combat. On the other hand, Earth magic offers the resistance of earth and rock to the caster, making available some of the best defenses found in any college.
   Spells are primarily physical, manipulating the element earth that exists in all solids. However, the caster must have a solid connection with the Mother Earth to work his magic. Spells will work on the top floor of a building or in a moving wagon, but not on a ship, not while flying, not while riding a living creature, etc...
 

Relevant to your specific example, there's this variation on an Entangle spell, "Mud Trap."

 

  The caster summons mud from the ground to stream over his opponent and harden into sticky tendrils. The mud does not completely cover the target, allowing the target to be struck without breaking the hardened mud.
 

An even better illustration of specifics is the use of Telekinesis to model an "Earthquake" spell.

 

    This spell creates an earthquake with a 2" radius around the target hex. Once cast the spell may be maintained by paying END, without further Skill or targeting rolls.
   People in the area of the earthquake must resist a STR 15 by bracing or grabbing hold of something, or be thrown to the ground. Inanimate objects will be knocked over. If the floor is rigid (like stone) it will crack, causing bad footing even after the quake. Unless people in the target area can resist the quake with their casual STR, they will have a -3 penalty to every roll they make requiring coordination or concentration.
   Note that the caster is not personally immune.
 

Of course earth-related magic is a pretty straightforward example. When you get into more esoteric magic colleges, like Time or Emotions, the constructs become more innovative. One of my personal favorites is a Dispel Magic variant from the College of Demonology: The caster summons a small anti-magic demon, which he then hurls at the target. When the demon hits it explodes in a small, stinking green cloud which dispels magic. If the caster fails his roll the demon goes off in his hand, dispelling magic on himself.
 

[Mr. R]

1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Sure, but -- no offense intended -- that's still a pretty basic approach. Let me give you an example of the "Earth College," from the Fourth Edition Fantasy Hero genre book.

 

    Earth, though the most solidly physical of the four elements (earth, fire, air, and water), is perhaps the least glamorous of the Elemental Colleges.
   Stoicism is emphasized. Spell casting gestures are choppy or simple static poses. The concentration required makes the wizard an easier target in combat. On the other hand, Earth magic offers the resistance of earth and rock to the caster, making available some of the best defenses found in any college.
   Spells are primarily physical, manipulating the element earth that exists in all solids. However, the caster must have a solid connection with the Mother Earth to work his magic. Spells will work on the top floor of a building or in a moving wagon, but not on a ship, not while flying, not while riding a living creature, etc...
 

Relevant to your specific example, there's this variation on an Entangle spell, "Mud Trap."

 

  The caster summons mud from the ground to stream over his opponent and harden into sticky tendrils. The mud does not completely cover the target, allowing the target to be struck without breaking the hardened mud.
 

An even better illustration of specifics is the use of Telekinesis to model an "Earthquake" spell.

 

    This spell creates an earthquake with a 2" radius around the target hex. Once cast the spell may be maintained by paying END, without further Skill or targeting rolls.
   People in the area of the earthquake must resist a STR 15 by bracing or grabbing hold of something, or be thrown to the ground. Inanimate objects will be knocked over. If the floor is rigid (like stone) it will crack, causing bad footing even after the quake. Unless people in the target area can resist the quake with their casual STR, they will have a -3 penalty to every roll they make requiring coordination or concentration.
   Note that the caster is not personally immune.
 

Of course earth-related magic is a pretty straightforward example. When you get into more esoteric magic colleges, like Time or Emotions, the constructs become more innovative. One of my personal favorites is a Dispel Magic variant from the College of Demonology: The caster summons a small anti-magic demon, which he then hurls at the target. When the demon hits it explodes in a small, stinking green cloud which dispels magic. If the caster fails his roll the demon goes off in his hand, dispelling magic on himself.
 

 

 

That's true.  I forgot how flavourful those colleges were.  Now you have me wanting to meld the Metier System from KS to this College system from 4th ed.

[Opal]

17 hours ago, DShomshak said:

I should note that the very latest D&D supplement, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, suggests letting players customize the descriptions of their characters' spells, to make characters more distinctive. For instance, a sorcerer (wild talent spellcaster, more or less) who's a farmer. When he casts magic missile, he evokes chickens of magical force that fly at his targets to scratch and peck. A refreshingly HERO-ish attitude, I think!

I recall D&D 4th Ed did that, too, by default, for all 'powers' (yes, they had a format for class abilities used for spells, prayers, and even martial arts, that was generically called 'Powers').  It was a block with the Name at the top, in a color indicating how often you could use it, followed by an italic description that had no mechanical impact that the player could change at whim, and then all the game stats....  It was one of many things D&Ders seemed to hate about that edition.  Funny to see it coming back - I guess as a suggestion to the DM might allow, it's OK. 

[DShomshak]

Thanks, Opal! I never looked at 4th ed D&D, so I didn't know about that.

 

Indeed, Tasha's presents personalized FX as an option, take it or leave it. I thought the influence might come from Critical Roll, a YouTube channel (I think) that streams the D&D 5e game of a group of Hollywood voice actors. Some of my friends follow it and say it's a very good campaign by any standards; and because the participants are all actors, they portray their characters well. It's become remarkably popular. Anyway, they've been personalizing their spell descriptions for a while now.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Ninja-Bear]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:52 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I liked the spell college thing a lot too, and more, I liked the staged levels of "you can't learn this level of power until you get some of the lower powered stuff".

 

For years now I've been trying to work out a way of building a power framework that does just that.  It would be ideal for a ton of builds, such as martial arts.

For martial arts years ago I thought of expanding Perks Black Belt then Master then Grandmaster 1-3 points respectively. And the Martial Ability had a limitation Must have Perk X.

[assault]

I'm considering making magic inaccessible to PCs. That way they won't have to worry about the mechanics.

[mallet]

In my campaign there are "Clerics" as a "class", those are characters that are devoted to their God(s) and gain mystical abilities because of that, but the main thing is they follow and attempt to live up to the ideal of their God(s) and spread the word, work(ed) in churches, monasteries, etc...

 

But I also allow any "Class" of character, if they are true believers in a God, to purchase a special Faith Talent (that the Clerics also have), and then they can buy special abilities like "Healing Hands" or "Turn Undead". This is how you would make a traditional "D&D" type Paladin in my campaign, make a fighter, have him be a believer in a God, buy Faith, then buy healing or turn undead abilities. 

 

But it also allows for other "holy/believer" characters to gain mystical abilities because of their faith/belief so you can have a Blacksmith who can turn undead, because of his/her true faith in the God(s) or a Sailor who can Heal the injured, etc... 

 

I never liked how only certain people (ie, "clerics") were granted special abilities by their God(s) when the God(s) might have tons of true and faithful believers out there amongst other careers. So this way it allows non-"clerics" who want to play devote believers in a certain God also have access to some special abilities. 

 

EDIT to describe what the Faith Talent is. In my games all spell casters cast using an Endurance Reserve for their mystical abilities. Wizards have a certain type of Magical Endurance reserve for spell casting (that has it's own rules for recovering), while Druids have a "nature Magic Spell reserve" which differs from the Wizards one, and Devine spell users have a Faith Endurance reserve that they use to cast spells, that also recovers differently then either wizards or Druids. 

 

As example of END Reserve recovery, wizards recover via study and rest, druids recover by being in the wilderness (deeper/more remote in the wilds the quicker they recover) or by being with animals/nature, and Faith recovers via Prayer & good deeds (feeding the poor, tending the injured, giving money, etc...).

[Martyn Webster]

I haven't run a fantasy genre campaign for some time now, although I play in several and follow some online DnD campaigns to get ideas.

 

The things I am looking forward to doing is that the healing magic of healers has a superficial impact on the target, and that provides for some interesting roleplay and makes sure that the "cleric" (or any other type of healer) is noticed by the party and not just taken for granted as a source of healing.

 

Some ideas:

- Good cleric healing which only works if the target says prayers to that god, or at least says or does something that the God likes ("Say your prayers if you want your BODY back!").

- A druids healing where the target has to touch a natural plant or the ground and wines/roots reach out and touch the target. There is a residual effect such as a leaf found in a pocket or a green tinge to the healed area.

- An evil cleric/warlock whose healing looks just nasty (but works as normal). Afterwards, the target has an mild uneasy feeling of guilt, paranoia or anger, etc (based on the god).

- A necromancer who can heal but you need to find something alive to drain the life force of - he insists that the target provides the life source for their own healing.

 

If cheap and "clean" healing is freely available including in the form of potions bought at a shop, the cleric is not valued... but if every source of magical healing in the world comes with such minor effects, those needing healing will be more interested in finding a source they can live with and value a cleric/deity who is relatively less demanding or more compatible with their character's ethos.

 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 11/7/2021 at 8:14 PM, assault said:

I'm considering making magic inaccessible to PCs. That way they won't have to worry about the mechanics.

Good luck with that. 

[Duke Bushido]

What Scott said.

 

I have tried it in the past-

 

For clarity:

 

The idea for magic in this world was that it was a huge undertaking, involving years of study, diligence, and attunement, and even then could only be performed by large groups of people working in concert for days on end, generally to the pleasure of one deity of another.

 

In this way, I thought "we can still have magic as a trope: things that have happened or been repaired because of or via  magic; magic items; the after-effects of magical "war," for lack of a better word; cursed bloodlines; gifted bloodlines; magic creatures, etc, etc, but not have the Players themselves get caught up in the magical one-upmanship that tends to creep into long-running fantasy campaigns.

 

After nine sessions, I declared a retcon session.  They had spent the bulk of the time looking less at the adventure and more for shortcuts to gain magical power.  I doesn't seem to matter if you take PC access ff the table completely; if the possibility of access exists in your world, then at every single sword fight, your players are going to want to cast "Gun," and won't be happy until they can.

 

Certainly every group is different, etc, but in my own experience, if you don't want them to have it, the only options are to center your game around the quest to attain it, such that when they achieve it, the game is done, or to build a world where it just doesn't exist. 

 

 

[assault]

I've considered having magic be so common it cancells out. If everyone gets +1 to hit and -1 to be hit, there is no need to worry about it.

 

Only exceptional magic matters,. and that doesn't need to happen.

[Scott Ruggels]

Just a plus one? This discounts the kind of people that as soon as they are done with school, go to the basketball court and endlessly practice their shots until dinner time. There would be NPCs let alone players who would be looking for that extra edge. 
 

Now I have had some success with a fantasy game without magic, so there is no incentive to search for that edge, but the PC and friendly NPC body count has been high. 

[Asperion]

Now that this topic is completely derailed  -

 

One possible suggestion would be to make magic have a subtle effect on the world.  Instead of allowing things like fireball or magic missile,  make it so that spellcasters are performing more things like communication spells,  health spells (require medical skills), combat abilities would be along the lines of enhancing the natural abilities of weapons and people rather than straight combat abilities. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

In many campaigns, the power level that mages will be working at to be equivalent to non-magical damage output will mean that magic isn't terribly powerful or effective for direct combat application.  OK you can use up to 30 active points of power in spells, that's a 6d6 blast, against a dragon.  After a successful magic skill roll then a to-hit roll.  With side effects, gestures, etc.  When it comes to direct application of damage, weapons are usually going to be the better choice in a lot of campaigns.

[Asperion]

This is why mystics tend to remain in the castle making the tools and supplies rather than going into the field.  Most (if not all) actual combat takes place with normal humans who have no magical ability,  only the supplies and knowledge gained from their scouts and mystics.

[HeroGM]

Sorry...but just because. An Animated Pooh who became a cleric.

[Spence]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:03 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

In many campaigns, the power level that mages will be working at to be equivalent to non-magical damage output will mean that magic isn't terribly powerful or effective for direct combat application.  OK you can use up to 30 active points of power in spells, that's a 6d6 blast, against a dragon.  After a successful magic skill roll then a to-hit roll.  With side effects, gestures, etc.  When it comes to direct application of damage, weapons are usually going to be the better choice in a lot of campaigns.

 

This is something I have never understood.  They are fantasy RPG's so everything has to be whimpy. 

 

One of the reasons I stopped playing a lot D&D, C&C, etc. was the built in nerf factor that IMO plagues the fantasy roleplaying TTRPG. 

I have read many books as well manga and watched anime where the fantasy hero was actually bad a$$ed.  Being hurled through stone walls, betting cratered into the ground complete with newly made hole.  

 

Fantasy player:  errrr wizards can't use warrior weapons!  

Fantasy reader: Gandalf??

 

Sure, if you want to recreate everything that the traditional FRPG's did wrong, you are there.

But if you want to actually use a system like hero to build a great fantasy game with HEROES!  Than why the devotion to nerf?

 

There are some great anime with epic characters wielding combinations of weapons and magic.  From augmenting their personal abilities to casters invoking massive spells.  

There are a lot Isekai shows that center around players in games and they show how different types of casters and warriors can work together in a "party".

 

I just don't get the whole need to intentionally destroy a game just to reflect earlier disappointments. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, your wizard can pick up a sword but he won't be nearly as skilled as sword dude.  The point here isn't "wizards can't use swords" its that direct application of magic isn't as effective as indirect or just using a weapon in many cases.

[DShomshak]

*Some* Fantasy games follow D&D's lead with a "Zero to Hero" arc. Not all.

 

I will once again cite Exalted, in which Solar Exalted (the default PC type, though the game supports several others each with their own sourcebook) start out quite powerful, and rapidly escalate to world-shaking titanhood. For instance, sorcery operates in three levels. First level has spells like, "Conjure an elemental." Third level has spells like, "Nuke a city." Not that sorcerers get all the goodies. By the time your Twilight Caste sorcerer can nuke cities, your Zenith Caste prophet can sway the entire population to his will through his eloquence, your Night Caste ninja-spy can have murdered the city leadership and be impersonating all of them, your Dawn Caste warrior can cleave through walls or entire armies with equal ease or forge the populace into a super-army, or your Eclipse Caste diplomat has bound the city's patron god to go along with whatever else your group decides to do.

 

In Exalted, PCs can say, "I am no mere god," and it's not boasting.

 

Some of my friends played Fantasy HERO games they described as "Fantasy Champions," which approached this level. One of my players, though, prefers D&D to HERO precisely because D&D has the Zero to Hero power curve. And sure, you could rig a HERO game so characters gained power fairly quickly, but it doesn't seem to be the default assumption.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, DShomshak said:

 

Some of my friends played Fantasy HERO games they described as "Fantasy Champions," which approached this level. One of my players, though, prefers D&D to HERO precisely because D&D has the Zero to Hero power curve. And sure, you could rig a HERO game so characters gained power fairly quickly, but it doesn't seem to be the default assumption.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

All of my games are like this.

 

All of them.  I have never run a "short" campaign.  My players all _like_ starting at the bottom and growing the character-- even when we are doing supers.  They like starting out as 1965 Spiderman and ending up as Not-Evil Thanos.  And since they like that, that's what we play.  Fantasy games run the same way.  Our Sci-Fi games usually end up with players laying the foundations of empires by the time we wrap up, and cyberpunk games usually end with the PCs toppling some of the mightiest corporations on the planet, staring from their humble characters stealing from street vendors just to stop their stomachs from rumbling.

 

I don't want to be seen as kidding here, but for most of our gaming lives, we kinda thought that this was the _point_ of a campaign:  the creation and growth of the characters.  because of this, that's how we did it.  We like it.

 

And now that I am thinking about it, that's probably one of the reasons I detest urban fantasy fiction overall: the characters are _not allowed_ to grow to any level that would draw the world's attention to the existence of this hidden magical world living amongst them. 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

Oddly, in my FH games, there followed a progression of competent, danger worthy professionals, into minor nobility with a lot of useful contacts. Rarely would I permit less than competent characters, as there were a lot of dangerous consequences out there in the world. Magic could be powerful, but trade offs limited its uses, so one never saw Isekai sorts of progression in power. We never got to Fantasy Champions, even more so, the recent no magic game, progression was by recruiting friends and Allie’s into you character’s conflict. I suppose it kind of parallels the Danger International character progression in that the characters become more skilled and teamwork becomes smoother over time, but it’s the favors and contacts that make their jobs easier over time. It’s a pretty anti- D&D way of running fantasy.