Red Doom anyone?

[steriaca]

32 minutes ago, Tjack said:

     I’ve said here often that my #1 rule of GM’ing is “Everybody loves hitting Nazi’s”. 
  My idea in all this was;  Is using a group like Red Doom in bad taste for taking real tragedy as fuel for for something foolish.
   If one of the major comic companies in the days right after 9-11 created a hero empowered by the souls lost and never recovered under the Twin Towers, they would have been crucified by the fans and the media alike.

So true. 

 

The reason why this is kinda bad is the Russian invasion of Ukraine right now. Othoe they could be the enimies of the current kleptocracy which is currently in control of Russia. They wanting to bring back the USSR and communist control.

 

So...which is worse?

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Tjack said:

     I’ve said here often that my #1 rule of GM’ing is “Everybody loves hitting Nazi’s”. 
  My idea in all this was;  Is using a group like Red Doom in bad taste for taking real tragedy as fuel for for something foolish.
   If one of the major comic companies in the days right after 9-11 created a hero empowered by the souls lost and never recovered under the Twin Towers, they would have been crucified by the fans and the media alike.

 

Short answer: IMO yes, it would be in bad taste. We've discussed different ways you might use the Red Doom characters, but what you keep repeating sounds like you want to specifically connect them to the war in Ukraine in some way. I've outlined why my opinion is, that would be a very questionable move.

 

Now, let me take your example, and look at it from the other side: let's say that shortly after the fall of the Twin Towers, you ran scenarios in which heroes kept that disaster from happening altogether. Nobody lost their lives, the old World Trade Center is still standing. How would that respect all the families and friends who lost loved ones on that day? But then you have the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, all the people who died in those conflicts, the way the world changed, the way America changed. Remember how everyone felt going through all that. None of that could have been predicted in the days and weeks immediately after 9/11.

 

The war in Ukraine is ongoing. The outcome can't yet be foreseen. But the suffering is real. My advice is, use Red Doom with caution if you wish, but leave current events alone.

 

(BTW Steve Long was once asked in a chat about 9/11 in the official Champions Universe. His response was that for editorial purposes he considered it to still have occurred, but due to intervention by superheroes the deaths were far fewer. Same with New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina.)

[Lord Liaden]

56 minutes ago, steriaca said:

So true. 

 

The reason why this is kinda bad is the Russian invasion of Ukraine right now. Othoe they could be the enimies of the current kleptocracy which is currently in control of Russia. They wanting to bring back the USSR and communist control.

 

So...which is worse?

 

In a lot of ways, Putin does want to bring back the USSR. Not the moribund philosophy of Stalinist Communism, but the power, the prestige, the regional domination, and the global influence that the Soviet Union once enjoyed, and that many Russians are frankly nostalgic for. All under his iron control and to his personal aggrandizement, like Stalin. (BTW according to recent polls that I've seen, the majority of Russians today have a positive opinion of Stalin and believe his rule was good for the country. Remember that post-Soviet economic and political reforms went poorly for Russia, and such prosperity and stability as it's gained since then have been under dictatorship.)

[Tjack]

26 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Short answer: IMO yes, it would be in bad taste. We've discussed different ways you might use the Red Doom characters, but what you keep repeating sounds like you want to specifically connect them to the war in Ukraine in some way. I've outlined why my opinion is, that would be a very questionable move.

 

Now, let me take your example, and look at it from the other side: let's say that shortly after the fall of the Twin Towers, you ran scenarios in which heroes kept that disaster from happening altogether. Nobody lost their lives, the old World Trade Center is still standing. How would that respect all the families and friends who lost loved ones on that day? But then you have the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, all the people who died in those conflicts, the way the world changed, the way America changed. Remember how everyone felt going through all that. None of that could have been predicted in the days and weeks immediately after 9/11.

 

The war in Ukraine is ongoing. The outcome can't yet be foreseen. But the suffering is real. My advice is, use Red Doom with caution if you wish, but leave current events alone.

 

(BTW Steve Long was once asked in a chat about 9/11 in the official Champions Universe. His response was that for editorial purposes he considered it to still have occurred, but due to intervention by superheroes the deaths were far fewer. Same with New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina.)

  I remember watching the news during 9-11 and in the back of my head in the place where a small child’s voice says “make it not happen” was the image of the team I was GM’ing who were based in New York would have stopped this or dealt with the aftermath.  I know that’s not really sane or rational but hell, who was right then?
  Maybe I’m just beating on this gong so hard because it was so hard to get the conversation off of a discussion of write-ups & origins and onto the idea of “when does a game following the real world become a bad thing?”

   I may just lay off responding for a while and just see what everyone else has to say.

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, Tjack said:

  I remember watching the news during 9-11 and in the back of my head in the place where a small child’s voice says “make it not happen” was the image of the team I was GM’ing who were based in New York would have stopped this or dealt with the aftermath.  I know that’s not really sane or rational but hell, who was right then?
  Maybe I’m just beating on this gong so hard because it was so hard to get the conversation off of a discussion of write-ups & origins and onto the idea of “when does a game following the real world become a bad thing?”

   I may just lay off responding for a while and just see what everyone else has to say.

There is a reason we play (those of us who can still play and game and don't have the spector of work and life over our heads). Mostly the reason is to get away from reality and harsh real world events. To get away from our problems for a little while. 

 

Should real world events enter the game? Well, that would depend on what the players can handle and what they are looking for.

 

As for Red Doom? *shrugs* I don't see a need for the group except if you absolutely don't like Red Winter.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

Should real world events enter the game? Well, that would depend on what the players can handle and what they are looking for.

I don’t know how you don’t use real worlds events. What is done though is to make use of a Proxy (or Comic-book version.) in game. So what really the difference between stopping Red Doom or say the Slug from conquering what ever nation? 
 

My point is though is that if a Proxy works better in game. Go for it. If Red Doom works for your players go for it. If not then change it to suit tastes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

His response was that for editorial purposes he considered it to still have occurred, but due to intervention by superheroes the deaths were far fewer. Same with New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina.

 

If you are playing a "real world" game instead of like DC an alternate universe one with Metropolis and Gotham City, this is a good approach, to the sense you deal with real events at all.  Mostly I think superheroes do best if they act as if they are in the world, but big events don't happen -- or if they do, are background rather than part of the campaign.  Like Golden Age characters during WW2, the war existed and they'd deal with saboteurs or something, push for war bonds, but didn't go over and fight in the war for the most part.

[DShomshak]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

(BTW Steve Long was once asked in a chat about 9/11 in the official Champions Universe. His response was that for editorial purposes he considered it to still have occurred, but due to intervention by superheroes the deaths were far fewer. Same with New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina.)

In my old "Seattle Sentinels" campaign, I wrote occasional "news of the world" handouts about what other heroes and villains were doing, including taking current events and "superizing" them. What Steve Long described is pretty much how I handled 9/11: It happened as in the real world, but superheroes (and not a few super-criminals) responded to help pu;ll pweople from the wreckage of the towers. Because as in the real world, for a brief moment old rivalries didn't seem to matter.

 

I absolutely would *not* have PCs get involved in the Ukraine War *directly.* That would be in appallingly bad taste. But Putin's government has shown its unbridled villainy. There's a long history in comics of superheroes fighting supervillains who explicitly work for hostile and evil governments. Putin's government now qualifies. Putin has also said repeatedly that he views NATO and the West in general, and the US in particular, as his real enemy. Just as Golden Age comic book characters fought Axis villains, it does not seem out of line to me for PCs to fight Russian supervillains sent by Putin to cause trouble in the PCs' home countries.

 

(Though players' mileage may vary. I would still recommend asking first where they want you to draw the line between reality and fantasy.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[archer]

After the first plane hit and supers were on the scene, it'd be highly unlikely that the second plane could have hit in the same place.

 

So the second group of terrorists would have been foiled in some manner or the terrorists would have realized the problem in advance and have chosen a different target.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Oh, it depends.  What if Spider-Man and Daredevil are the only game in town, everyone else off fighting some cosmic menace?  What are they gonna do about a plane hitting a building?

[Lord Liaden]

Same thing they're often shown doing in a fire, or flood, or earthquake: get as many civilians to safety as possible. Heroes save lives, no difference if it's one or a hundred.

 

But Spider-Man? Remember that runaway airplane in Spider-Man: Homecoming? Spidey is a lot more powerful than people often give him credit for.

[steriaca]

54 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Same thing they're often shown doing in a fire, or flood, or earthquake: get as many civilians to safety as possible. Heroes save lives, no difference if it's one or a hundred.

 

But Spider-Man? Remember that runaway airplane in Spider-Man: Homecoming? Spidey is a lot more powerful than people often give him credit for.

Don't forget, there WAS a Amazing Spiderman comic which delt with 9-11. He was there pulling people from the rubble. Even Kingpin used his mafia might to make cleanup and rescue easier for the first responders.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I don’t know how you don’t use real worlds events. 

 

 

 

I tend to avoid them.  It's a holdover from gaming in college.  I just got tired of the fighting between players when they came up on opposite opinions about real world events.

 

Proxies dont work; the mutant thing is proof of that.  Every time we start discussing the mutant thing, someone pokes in with "it's a proxy for racism!"  Yes.  We all know that.  It's really, _really_ obvious.  Most proxies are pretty obvious. 

 

That is the problem with them.  When you use a proxy, people still get it, they get the reference, and you are taking that "what if they have opposite opinions" chance.  People want to be the good guy championing justice against the forces of evil, and don't tend to react well to finding out that half their friends think they _are_ the bas guy on one or another topic.

 

Real events?  Things that have happened?  When approached as history-  yep; WW 1 and 2 haooened in this universe; yep, the presidents you liked and the ones you hated were also the presidents.  Yep, Native Americans were displaced and died-  when presented as _history_, folks take it as they take it in the real world.

 

Current events?   Nope.  Avoid them.  Not like the plague, though: current events demonstrates that too many people arent trying to avoid that, and even discussing it brings up ill will in half the people you might trt to discuss it with.

 

 

 

[Tjack]

13 hours ago, steriaca said:

Don't forget, there WAS a Amazing Spiderman comic which delt with 9-11. He was there pulling people from the rubble. Even Kingpin used his mafia might to make cleanup and rescue easier for the first responders.

  I remember that book. Written by J.M. Strazcinski and drawn by John Romita jr.  It had a solid black cover and it featured all the Marvel characters native to Manhattan.   And they took some flack from people who said it was in bad taste.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Remember that runaway airplane in Spider-Man: Homecoming? Spidey is a lot more powerful than people often give him credit for.

 

He's got around 40 STR so even with pushing there's nothing at all he could do about a jumbo jet crashing into a building.  He'd rescue a ton of people and clear rubble, etc as people said.

[steriaca]

49 minutes ago, Tjack said:

  I remember that book. Written by J.M. Strazcinski and drawn by John Romita jr.  Ot had a solid black cover and it featured all the Marvel characters native to Manhattan.   And they took some flack from people who said it was in bad taste.

I actually loved the story. Prehaps the distasteful thing people hated was Spidey's inner thoughts about how normal Muslims would or would not forgive us for our reactions to Muslim terrorists. 

 

Anyways, each there own.

[Tjack]

6 minutes ago, steriaca said:

I actually loved the story. Prehaps the distasteful thing people hated was Spidey's inner thoughts about how normal Muslims would or would not forgive us for our reactions to Muslim terrorists. 

 

Anyways, each there own.

   I also thought the story was fine, although there was some whining from fans over things like Dr. Doom weeping at the destruction. 

[steriaca]

18 minutes ago, Tjack said:

   I also thought the story was fine, although there was some whining from fans over things like Dr. Doom weeping at the destruction. 

Dr. Doom crying was a stretch. Even if he is not a heartless bastard, he is still a villain. I can accept Kingpin helping out behind the scenes. I can even understand Doom helping (he is not a complete bastard). But Doom sheading a tear. Blast you Reed Richards and his blasted Invisible Onion Ray!

[BoloOfEarth]

Can't remember if I told this here before, so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

 

I was running a Champions campaign based in New York City when 9/11 happened.  My game world was very much real world history with supers added.  I thought long and hard about how I was going to handle 9/11.  I didn't want to be disrespectful of the first responders who gave their lives trying to save others, which I think would have been the case if the PC heroes just saved the day and stopped the planes from hitting the WTC.  I also thought it would be sucky of me to have the PCs' efforts all be for naught as they tried to prevent the disaster. 

 

So I decided they weren't there that day.  They were at Sanctuary (the pro-supers island in the south Pacific), with the NYC teleport portal being in the basement of the WTC North Tower.  And when the first plane hit the North Tower, it also shut down the portal, so the PC heroes couldn't just teleport back home and save the South Tower.

 

There was another (NPC) superhero team in NYC in my world: the Guardians.  I decided they were caught by surprise when the first plane hit the North Tower and were helping to evacuate the North Tower when the second airliner came in.  A few Guardians were outside and tried to stop the plane but were unable to do so.  In the end, all but one of the Guardians died either trying to stop the second plane, or were killed when the towers collapsed.  (In later game sessions, I had an adventure where the PC heroes helped that NPC hero get over his survivor's guilt, though to be honest I don't really recall the details of that.)

 

Meanwhile, on Sanctuary the heroes saw the news about the first plane hitting.  They couldn't teleport to NYC, but there was a teleport portal in LA, so they went there, and then started heading across the country to get back to New York to help out however they could.  Along with pretty much all the supers who were at Sanctuary at the time.  As they crossed the country, they were joined by other supers from cities across the country (both heroes and villains).  Old animosities were set aside for the greater good.  When they got to Manhattan, the supers did what they could to search for survivors, help the injured, and so on, alongside the police, firefighters, and other people.  

 

It may not have been the best possible way to handle it, but I think it was at least respectful of those who lost their lives and those who responded to the tragedy as best they could, without making the PCs be completely ineffective.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

He's got around 40 STR so even with pushing there's nothing at all he could do about a jumbo jet crashing into a building.  He'd rescue a ton of people and clear rubble, etc as people said.

 

 

[Jhamin]

20 hours ago, Tjack said:

   I also thought the story was fine, although there was some whining from fans over things like Dr. Doom weeping at the destruction. 

 

I always thought Doom would have taken the larger view.  He would have understood why the Terrorists acted the way they did, he would have understood why the Americans would be so surprised, and I think he could have foreseen the many, many changes in US culture and foreign policy that were coming.  He was always a big picture kind of guy.  To him it would have been like watching a fight start two tables down from you at a restaurant.

He probably did lament the loss of life, and the loss of life that was coming.. but he wouldn't have been surprised.

[archer]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:15 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

He's got around 40 STR so even with pushing there's nothing at all he could do about a jumbo jet crashing into a building.  He'd rescue a ton of people and clear rubble, etc as people said.

 

Well, Spider-Man wouldn't necessarily be lifting the airplane.

 

If he can get to the airplane, the cockpit windows are designed so that the pilots can escape through them in the event of a crash. (And in one comic, Spider-Man made it onto a landing Apollo capsule with the help of the Air Force so getting onto an airplane piloted by an inexperienced pilot who can't do evasive maneuvers isn't impossible.)

 

So Spider-Man could break in through a window, schlep himself in, knock out the terrorists, and either restore control to the pilot or steer it himself into a water landing rather than a skyscraper crash.

 

Or he could just alter the control surfaces from the outside so that he determines where the airplane goes. Webbing covering the jet intakes powers down the engines. Webbing also alters the angle of the flaps. He's certainly strong enough to overcome the hydraulics controlling the flaps.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

So Spider-Man could break in through a window, schlep himself in, knock out the terrorists, and either restore control to the pilot or steer it himself into a water landing rather than a skyscraper crash.

 

He'd have to do one of those swings from nothing 5000 feet above the city like they show in the movies and comic book covers, like 10 miles outside the city so he'd have time to do all this.

 

Quote

Or he could just alter the control surfaces from the outside so that he determines where the airplane goes. 

 

I mean, its a comic book, so you could have him do it but in real life its a lot more complicated to turn a jet that size than yanking on a flap.  Could he do it with a smaller jet like in the movie clip above?  Maybe, but jumbo jets have lot more going on and need a lot more control.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

He'd have to do one of those swings from nothing 5000 feet above the city like they show in the movies and comic book covers, like 10 miles outside the city so he'd have time to do all this.

 

Or he works with others, such as a news traffic helicopter or a police chopper, to get him within range.  As noted above, he did not swing up to that space capsule back in one of his single-digit issues.

 

I am recalling the policy set by what eventually became DC comics at the advent of WW II, however.  Showing their superheroes achieving what real-life soldiers were sacrificing their lives to try to advance was not acceptable, so the Supers were confined to the home front.

[SCUBA Hero]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean, its a comic book, so you could have him do it but in real life its a lot more complicated to turn a jet that size than yanking on a flap.  Could he do it with a smaller jet like in the movie clip above?  Maybe, but jumbo jets have lot more going on and need a lot more control.

 

Exactly!  Spider-Man can do this the same way that Superman can lift a battleship by one point and it doesn't crumple.