Red Doom anyone?

[Tjack]

   I just had a thought and didn’t want it to die of loneliness....

  What does anyone currently GM’ing a game think of the idea of running an adventure with Red Doom?  Would that be a useful venting of frustrations or an exercise in bad taste?

[death tribble]

It would depend on the taste of your gaming group and the GM.

[Scott Ruggels]

Unfamiliar with the subject.

[Cygnia]

6 minutes ago, death tribble said:

It would depend on the taste of your gaming group and the GM.

The tribble speaks true

[assault]

29 minutes ago, death tribble said:

It would depend on the taste of your gaming group and the GM.

 

As the tribble said.

Also, it would require a major rewrite to ditch the dated Cold War stuff. The biggest problem is that the Cold War ended thirty years ago, so characters that were young then aren't young now. If it wasn't for that, the sleazier characters could just have reinvented themselves as authoritarian Russian nationalists.

[Tjack]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Unfamiliar with the subject.

   It was a supplement book from years gone by of a team of heroes for the Soviet Govt.  Some were loyal Communists and good folks some were Commie bastids. Others were just stuck with the situation for one reason or another. 
    A nice mix of characters and power levels.  I believe it was an Arron Allston creation, but I could be wrong.

43 minutes ago, assault said:

 

As the tribble said.

Also, it would require a major rewrite to ditch the dated Cold War stuff. The biggest problem is that the Cold War ended thirty years ago, so characters that were young then aren't young now. If it wasn't for that, the sleazier characters could just have reinvented themselves as authoritarian Russian nationalists.

   🎼Hey baby, what’s that sound. Everybody look at what’s goin’ down🎶   Putin’s in charge and the Cold War 2.0 is coming down the road.

[Jhamin]

It isn't a question of good or bad taste, its a question of relevance.  IMHO Red Doom is a love-letter to a dead comic book trope and has aged out of anything resembling usefulness.  The Soviet Union hasn't been a thing for almost 30 years and most of the NPCs are references to events and institutions that are at least 40 years old.  Sure, sleezy eastern European military guys are timeless, but as Assault said.. most of the characters just don't make sense anymore

 

I mean... time travel or period games are great but a Red Doom game in 2022 makes as much sense as a CB radio based supervillain and expect him to be taken seriously or setting an Indiana Jones tomb robbing adventure in 2022.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm okay with doing period stuff for a Bronze Age setting.  I mean, its a great time period, and its as reasonable to play an 80s campaign as one set in the 40s for Golden Age games.

[Steve]

They would be best for a Bronze Age setting. Way too out of date for the modern era.

 

That said, perhaps the presence of Soviet superhumans prolonged the life of the USSR in an alternate Champions universe, and that’s where the campaign is set. It might feel a bit like Watchmen.

 

Another possible way to use them would be as a part of a plot by Empress V’Han or maybe a time travel mission into the future for them from before the fall of the Soviet Union. After all, if you can bring Captain America forward from World War II into the modern world, you could do it with Soviet superhumans and might be pretty fun to have something so retro running around causing havoc.

[Tjack]

   Nobody said it would have to be a straight out of the book version.  A lot of them if not all could be updated to the present day and more militaristic viewpoint Russia seems to be going with now. 

[steriaca]

Isn't there a 6ed evil Russian supervillain group? 

 

Also...from Tiger Paw Press...

TPP: Villain Compendium 3. Pages Russian Siblings pages 206-226.

 

Also, from Hero Games...Champions Villains Volume 1: Master Villains page 198-200, Slun.

[Lord Liaden]

The Red Doom characters got something of a makeover in the 4E book, Classic Organizations, laying out circumstances which reshuffled the membership, putting all the more genuinely heroic characters into a private team called the New Guard, while the more ruthless ones formed a villain team actually called Red Doom. That could form a template on one way to bring these supers forward to post-Soviet collapse; however, their origins and cultural references are very dated by this point, so even by this tactic, using them for the present day would be problematic.

 

Now, I've long thought that in a world of superhumans, the Putin regime would definitely try to recruit or create supers to serve it. I believe that would offer an opening to use some of the RD characters as the basis for a new team, but probably with some name changes and tweaks to their backgrounds; or maybe with new original characters.

 

In the current official Champions Universe time line there were two government superhero teams for the Soviet Union, following the distinction made for the two teams in Red Doom: the People's Legion, which like the RD team, the Comintern, were mostly traditional superheroes who happened to be loyal to "the other side;" and Red Winter, a black ops team like RD's Supreme Soviets. In the present day almost none of the People's Legion are still active or have received write-ups, but Red Winter are still intact, having gone mercenary after the breakup of the Soviet Union. All of the team are physically enhanced, either through genetic engineering, technological augmentation, or magic, so age needn't be a pressing concern for them. They're fully detailed in Champions Villains Volume Two: Villain Teams.

 

Red Winter's members have differing goals. Some of them were loyal Communists and would like to restore the Soviet Union, and are unhappy with the current Russian kleptocracy. Others are more amoral and ruthless, just in it for the money and thrills. But all of them enjoyed the comforts and perks of state support, and might be lured back to serve Russia with offers of a renewed privileged status.

 

Another powerful Soviet hero, Spektr (Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains) experienced a comic-book-style accident which hurled him forward decades in time to the contemporary era, when he is a total fish out of water. He searches for a cause he can believe in and fight for, as he once fought for Communism. Not only is he one more character one might use as-is, that scenario could be applied more generally to the supers from the original Red Doom book, allowing you to keep them pretty much as written, even with some of their anachronistic elements.

[Tjack]

  Superman debuted in the 1930’s.  The Fantastic Four in the ‘60’s.  Origins get updated all the time     WHO CARES! ! !  This is not about write-ups.

      The original question I was trying to raise is....  

    Considering the current world situation, is using a team of Soviet “Bad Guys” to give players a way of working out any frustrations about what’s happening in the news in bad taste?

[Lord Liaden]

Oh, so when you mentioned "venting frustrations," you literally meant to connect that to the current geopolitical conflict? That would be your intention in using them?

 

Well, if you were thinking of allowing PCs in your game to go to Ukraine and fight for them, and maybe encounter Russian opposite numbers also in the area, I don't think that would be in good taste. The situation is complex and rapidly evolving, where it's heading is still unclear, and emotions right now are raw and volatile. I also think it would be disrespectful to have foreign supers swoop in and act like saviors, when in real life the Ukrainians are the ones doing the fighting.

 

OTOH if you'd just like to use the characters as Russian "heroes" that your PCs encounter as part of some unrelated scenario, that's really going to depend on the attitudes of your players, the scenario you choose, and the characters you use. If you utilized the most villainous of the Red Doom supers, like Col. Vasalov, the People's Commando, Loup Garou etc., and whatever they were up to was clearly villainous, that might be cathartic for the players, if you made sure they were all on board with the idea before hand. But if you present them with champions of Russia who are fundamentally heroic, such as Ivan, Tokamak, or Cosmo, the PCs' will probably accuse the Russians of hypocrisy, or try to convince them of what their nation is doing and maybe to change sides. That could could easily devolve into a really messy scene.

[Sundog]

Used the original Red Doom in a game, maybe a decade ago, where they were caught up in Time Travel shenanigans and wound up in 2008. Wound up with the Red Doom Civil War, with half the team trying to steal as much tech as possible and go back to change the fall of the USSR, and the other half working with the PCs to stop them. Eventually ended up sending them back after the PC mentalist erased their memories.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Tjack said:

  Superman debuted in the 1930’s.  The Fantastic Four in the ‘60’s.  Origins get updated all the time     WHO CARES! ! !  This is not about write-ups.

      The original question I was trying to raise is....  

    Considering the current world situation, is using a team of Soviet “Bad Guys” to give players a way of working out any frustrations about what’s happening in the news in bad taste?

I don’t believe it would be in bad taste. It’s why people enjoy punching Nazis and Orcs. 
 

Did you enjoy the original Batman:TAS? He had no Red Doom but the show intentionally was anachronistic and it worked. I think some people get so hung up on Time that they feel that it has to determine what Tropes are to be used. Yet looking at Pulp, you can see that it doesn’t. Pulp covers Fantasy to “Modern” to Futuristic yet the Pulp Tropes are the same. So go ahead a run Red Doom!

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Jhamin said:

as much sense as a CB radio based supervillain and expect him to be taken seriously

 

but...

 

BUT...

 

Air Wave!!!

[Ninja-Bear]

36 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

but...

 

BUT...

 

Air Wave!!!

Had to look him up. With today’s wireless technology, he could really wreak havoc in today’s world. Is the name sorta lame? Yeah. I used to struggle with the perfect name and costume and background then I realized that at the end of the day, as long as you’re having fun, nobody cares. 

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I don’t believe it would be in bad taste. It’s why people enjoy punching Nazis and Orcs. 
 

Did you enjoy the original Batman:TAS? He had no Red Doom but the show intentionally was anachronistic and it worked. I think some people get so hung up on Time that they feel that it has to determine what Tropes are to be used. Yet looking at Pulp, you can see that it doesn’t. Pulp covers Fantasy to “Modern” to Futuristic yet the Pulp Tropes are the same. So go ahead a run Red Doom!

 

The difference is, Nazis are still a fringe element in the real contemporary world (at least for now), while orcs are pure fantasy. They have enough emotional distance that it's generally safe to use them in that way. While B:TAS's anachronisms were just a stylistic choice. Nothing about the society in the show was overtly antique, while the technology employed was generally contemporary and often near-futuristic.

 

As I tried to illustrate in my previous examples, you can use Red Doom even today depending on the context. But IMO using them in connection to what's happening in Europe now runs the risk of appearing deeply insensitive and disrespectful.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

The difference is, Nazis are still a fringe element in the real contemporary world (at least for now), while orcs are pure fantasy. They have enough emotional distance that it's generally safe to use them in that way. While B:TAS's anachronisms were just a stylistic choice. Nothing about the society in the show was overtly antique, while the technology employed was generally contemporary and often near-futuristic.

 

As I tried to illustrate in my previous examples, you can use Red Doom even today depending on the context. But IMO using them in connection to what's happening in Europe now runs the risk of appearing deeply insensitive and disrespectful.

To whom exactly?

[Lord Liaden]

Aside from any Ukrainians, Ukrainian expats living in other countries, people with family or friends in Ukraine or people of Ukrainian descent; anyone who has been following the situation closely and has respect and empathy for Ukraine's struggles and what its people have already suffered.

 

On the other side of the coin, any Russian expats, people with Russian friends or other ties to Russia, who may already feel that Russians are being unfairly stigmatized for the actions of their government, and for whom using the RD characters in this way could be rubbing salt in the wound.

[SCUBA Hero]

20 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Now, I've long thought that in a world of superhumans, the Putin regime would definitely try to recruit or create supers to serve it. I believe that would offer an opening to use some of the RD characters as the basis for a new team, but probably with some name changes and tweaks to their backgrounds; or maybe with new original characters.

 

Agree.  Look how Olympic athletes are displayed as heroes in the real Putin regime.  Superheroes would be even more so... provided, of course, the government has way(s) of keeping them in line, if they aren't inclined to work for the government.  You could have A - into it for the money and prestige, B - likes the power and cruelty, C - Believes he is representing a true and just cause, D - eh, it's a job and you have to do something, and E - would *really* like out but family is held hostage (in a comfortable, well-guarded dacha where they are treated well... as long as...)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Like bashing Nazis to help remember their evil, it never hurt to stomp on some commies to remember theirs as well.

[steriaca]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Like bashing Nazis to help remember their evil, it never hurt to stomp on some commies to remember theirs as well.

Is it more evil to be a Nazi, or more evil to clame someone whose religion was mostly genocide by a Nazi as a Nazi?

[Tjack]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Like bashing Nazis to help remember their evil, it never hurt to stomp on some commies to remember theirs as well.

     I’ve said here often that my #1 rule of GM’ing is “Everybody loves hitting Nazi’s”. 
  My idea in all this was;  Is using a group like Red Doom in bad taste for taking real tragedy as fuel for for something foolish.
   If one of the major comic companies in the days right after 9-11 created a hero empowered by the souls lost and never recovered under the Twin Towers, they would have been crucified by the fans and the media alike.