Agents vs Supers

[nexus]

I've been burned allot as a player by agents. That is, set up to lose against them ususally so the GM can gloat and stroke his ego. So I am very biased on this topic. Do you feel agents should be a threat to superheroes? To superhero teams? Sometimes people have expressed that they'd rather fight a team of super villians rather than a couple of squads of Viper agents. Do you feel this is a good thing?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Well, it sounds like your problem has nothing to do with agents, and everything to do with your GM.

[Agent X]

It goes like this. GMs who are fond of agents and often beat the heroes with them are playing a little game of "double standards" - He's allowing the agents to be well equipped, well informed, and well prepared.

 

I sincerely doubt your GM allows you to do the same from what little you said. Try and build a new character and ask to be allowed to buy powers, perks, skills, followers, bases, and vehicles that will allow you to be well equipped, well informed, and well prepared and see what happens. I think I can already hear your GM balking at this.

[farik]

it depends. Personally I prefer agents as a warm up battle for the bigger challenge. I do things like sell down agent's stun so they go down quickly and stay down with good tactics or blunt power. Usually these encounters are followed by a fight with elites who are more competent and require tactics and the use of power to take down. After this come the "villains" who require good teamwork and tactics in addition to power.

[Bengal]

Agents vary in comics, even from one issue to another- it really all depends on how good the agents are. Even low-powered supervillains can be weaker than an experienced agent in some instances.

 

There have been numerous times that the (Tony Stark-built) Guardsmen have been trashed by supervillains in the Vault (In fact, it seems to happen every few months). There are other times that Iron Man himself has been trashed by normals with interesting tech, like Blacklash, the Ghost, the old Living Laser before he got transformed, and low-powered MAs like Taskmaster.

[Blue]

My players were outnumbered by agents 3 to 1 recently. With 7 heroes present I couldn't afford to pump the odds up higher because I already had too much to handle with 28 characters on the board. But my players LOVED it. They mopped up the museum with the viper cronies. It wasn't even close.

 

Me: "Sorry I didn't give you guys a better fight there."

Players: "Are you kidding? We should fight them more often!"

 

Poor, poor viper.

 

I think it depends on circumstance. If the heroes have walked into a viper base, yes the agents should be plentiful enough to be a problem. If they've stumbled into a trap set by their hunted, there should be enough agents on hand to be a reasonable threat.

 

However, if the heroes just came across them in the course of every day activity, agents should be little more than an annoyance. And supervillains in a scenario should always be the focus with agents merely as a nuissance that goes after NPCs and gets in the way of heroes.

[Bengal]

When Peter David wrote the Hulk, there were a few times when Hulk was pitted against swarms of normal agents- HYDRA, some Nazi group, whatever. Even though the agents posed not the slightest bit of peril to him, he was slowed down considerably because he didn't feel like killing them all to get where he was going... and they were physically in his way.

 

I wonder if your heroes would fare well against such swarms of normals, that their movement rate were suppressed to 1 or 2 inches per phase, and they were being plunked for 5d6 HA Continuous for the entire trip from A to B.

 

I mean, each individual agent might be useless, but against numbers, your players' characters may have problems.

[Doug McCrae]

I'd like to see an example from the comics where a bunch of agents beat a superhero. I think such a thing will be hard, if not impossible, to find.

[Doug McCrae]

The agents/supers thing is very similar to killer kobolds in DnD. Some GMs love to feel they've got one over on the players by beating them with superficially weak opposition.

 

A large part of it, I feel, is just so such a GM can truthfully say, "You got beaten by a bunch of kobolds."

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Well, it sounds like your problem has nothing to do with agents, and everything to do with your GM.

 

I'm with Derek. I like to think of myself as the Agent Queen, but I don't cream players with them all the time (or even most of the time. Perhaps part of the time).

 

-Shelley

[lemming]

Originally posted by ShelleyCM

I'm with Derek. I like to think of myself as the Agent Queen, but I don't cream players with them all the time (or even most of the time. Perhaps part of the time).

Oh? So that's the deal with the Sceptre!

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

I'd like to see an example from the comics where a bunch of agents beat a superhero. I think such a thing will be hard, if not impossible, to find.

 

First one that comes to my mind is "Black Widow vs. Horde of Hand Ninjas". (During the first Elektra storyline).

[Stone]

I also have suffered similar problems with a GM who viewed it as a competition between him and the players. It was not uncommon to run into four or more Viper 5 teams in an ambush situation. Now, I do admit that a well design ambush with well armed agents can be a very effective way to handle supers and very demoralizing to the supers. The problem comes from the constant ambushing and running into agents w/high skill levels (OCA 12+) with AP or NND weapons....plus flash gernades and such.

 

When I GM I do use Viper as a plot device. I throw a V5 team or two against my players to drive a story or as back up for a villian team, but it is not a competition against my players.

[Chuckg]

Speaking as one of the lead agent-boosters around here, I'd like to comment that throwing a 20-man ambush at unprepared player characters for no reason at all is really effing stupid. We all want our players to actually come /back/ to the gaming table next week, right?

 

I let agents use their heads and fight smart and tough because it absolutely kills /my/ enjoyment of the game to have to RP acting like a pack of morons, and the DM should have fun too. OTOH, the players don't have fun if they keep getting their asses flattened, so when you use smarter, tougher agents, you also should have the basic common sense to use /fewer/ agents, unless the players have done something really stupid like take a run at VIPER's World HQ or something.

[ShelleyCM]

The best thing I ever did for agents was run a VIPER campaign. The players were so good, so deadly as bad guys that they never treated VIPER as a joke again.

 

-Shelley

[SomeAsianKid]

Personally, I name each one of my agents, I give them each personalities, good sides and bad sides (No, I'm not getting TOO involved in the game, I just have a lot of free time). But I don't throw agents at the party and expect them to win. I think agents roles should be what an average human would be able to do against a super in real life. Besides, realife weapons are scary enough as it is. If 2d6 +1 rka's AK47's doesn't phase your party, then your party is definately in a higher power league.

[Metaphysician]

Good up to a point, except that Agents *aren't* average humans. They are above average in characteristic, skill, and gear.

 

And there is alot of stuff nastier than an AK47 available to agents of organizations like VIPER. Like the 4d6 INT Drain/4d6 DEX Drain rifle. . .

[Chaosliege]

A few of the players in our group (myself included) offten use groups like Viper and Cobra as high-point-low-risk hunteds. Sometimes a GM just has to remind the players that just because they're agents, doesn't mean they can't kick your ass if they want to. There's a reason Viper is considered more powerfull than most supers. It's called resourses..

[nexus]

I never liked the idea that some GMs like to present that the only reason your hero team exists is at the sufference of groups like Viper. If they wanted to, they could crush you like bugs so, whatever you do, don't annoy them (IE:The GM). Not very heroic, IMO.

[megaplayboy]

I do have a problem in one campaign I'm currently in:

The agents are all well-coordinated, toss darkness grenades which block all sight(my brick is the only one who can see through it), one hex entangles, atuofire normal blasters, and heavy blasters. So unless we can just swarm the agents immediately, we get stomped badly really quickly unless we run away. Irritates the heck out of me.

[Supreme Serpent]

From games I've run in the past, it depends.

 

Depends on who chose the fight.

 

If the agent group has the drop on the heroes, either through ambush, attacking base, etc. then they will give the heroes a rough time. Weapons and tactics designed to exploit known or expected weaknesses, limit heroes' effectiveness, etc. Unexpected hero on the scene can throw their plan out of whack pretty easily. If the heroes don't rally well and quickly, they could be in trouble. If it's only one hero on his own, he should probably concentrate on escape, not winning.

 

If the heroes get the drop on the agents - hitting a Nest for example, agents are in trouble. They will have some surprises, but unlikely to ever have enough firepower in one place long enough to really stop the heroes. Delay and escape are the likely goals for the agents.

 

If the heroes and agents run into each other unexpectedly, heroes will likely win the fight, but agents may accomplish at least part of their mission goals.

[Rune]

There are certain types of attacks that should be handed out to agents only after a lot of thought. Entangles with the Area Effect Advantage or the Explosion Advantange are particularly obnoxious. These attacks can set up a high DCV, low Defense character to get flattened. Dive for Cover is an inadequate defense because the agents usually have a numerical advantage, which can offset their slower Speed.

 

Drains against INT and Entangles based on EGO should be doled out sparingly to agents, if at all. Against certain character designs, they are just too effective.

[BoneDaddy]

I haven't dealt with too many agents (my hero experiences have been super v. super, mostly,) but I ran into a fair number of corp. sec. guys while playing Shadowrun. Superior tactics are always a problem. If your tactic is "come get some" they will hurt your brick real bad if they have any squad training at all. If you are willing to take cover, and take charge of the battlefield (for example - darkness grenades and area effect entangles? You've lost control of that battlefield) you can prevail against greater numbers, unless they are tailored to kill you.

 

If the GM sets this sort of sure-fire ambush up, it should further the story in some manner. The only good reason for creating this lopsided scenario is to further the story in some meaningful way that can't be done otherwise. The bad reason is to show that the heros aren't invulnerable (duh!) or that the GM really is in control (double duh!). Bad GMing has its place. I just don't know where that is.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

I do have a problem in one campaign I'm currently in:

The agents are all well-coordinated, toss darkness grenades which block all sight(my brick is the only one who can see through it), one hex entangles, atuofire normal blasters, and heavy blasters. So unless we can just swarm the agents immediately, we get stomped badly really quickly unless we run away. Irritates the heck out of me.

Sounds like a good reason for your hero team to develop some new tactics, and maybe a couple of them to buy new Enhanced Senses with XP. Stealing some of the agents' goggles would be a good start; obviously the agents can see through their own Darkness. Why is your brick the only one on your team who can see? Doesn't anyone else have any Enhanced Senses? Well coordinated agents? Time to jam their radios. The best way to beat an ambush is to reverse it and ambush the ambushers.

 

I'd move most of the player characters out of the Darkness field except for your brick. Let him stay (maybe carrying a car or other large shield), grab a couple of the agents' vision devices for the other characters, and then stomp villains until they run for it, then the rest of the team can ambush the agents when they leave the Darkness. Mobility-wise superheroes ought to have it over agents big-time, so once they leave their ambush the agents should be in trouble.

[Agent X]

Anybody else have a problem with some of the comments here: int drains, dex drains, area affect entangles, etc. - The game ought to be reciprocal. I've noticed some GMs are very free with powers that neutralize the advantages of the heroes very efficiently but would balk if the Players tried to buy half the power arrangements the GM uses for agents.

 

Here's an idea for agent plagued super groups. Always have a gadgeteer on the team. Always pick up whatever Viper tech you can find. Always use the gadgeteer for the excuse for the heroes to suddenly have similar tech and save your XP. It should get pretty interesting for the GM when all the heroes, regardless of character concept, run around with IR Goggles, Comm Units, Darkness Grenades, INT/DEX Drains, Area Effect Entangles, and the like. It should be interesting to see what the GM does when this crap is shoved right back at him or her.