Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Anyways...villians who I would LOVE to see, but will proably NOT...

1) Power Crusher.

2) Foxbat's Flunkies (especaly The Exo-Skelition Man and Harmous Fist).

 

I think these would be great!

4) Mongoose (now as a half-human, snake hateing ex-VIPER agent).

 

Gotta disagree with ya here ... I'm a Mongoose purist

5) Zodac (The group...this group was The Bomb...and deserves to be recreated).

 

Yes ... yes they were.

 

9) Terror Incorprater (reborn from the grave)

 

I don't think this one'll happen ... the good old Prof will remain living up to his namesake I think

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Sounds good....but I've never heard of him. What is he from exactly?

Tagteam is among those mentioned in the box at the bottom of page 215 of CKC.

[Jhamin]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I think what I would really like is to see some of the villian niches filled out more.

 

-By the time VVV comes out we will have all the new mystic baddies from The Mystic World and it's enemies book, so I would like to see VVV go really light on magic powered villians.

 

-A couple of general teams built on about the same power level as starting PCs. (Which I see Steve has already said he is planning on)

 

-A mercinary Team. While Laser, Utility, Mechassasin, and co are great for your baddies needing some super backup they can't take a whole PC group in open combat by themselves. Rather than having my rich masterminds hire a collection of Mercs all the time I would love to see a whole team that makes themselves avalible. Preferably a team with a common theame to tie them together.

I get a lot of mileage out of the Destruction Company and a modified verison of Bullet's raiders in my own campaign.

 

-More villians with motivations beyond money that are not themselves "Second Tier Master Villians".

A rabid anti-IHA mutant

Someone with a bone to pick with the government or a major corporation

Someone who commits awful crimes to try and cure an ailing loved one

An architect or engineer who has powers and now seeks to destroy all the things created from his designs.

Several "one trick ponies" with interesting powers that the players have to think to defeat but are not actual world busters. (I loved Deadweight from Enemies for Hire for this function)

[Fedifensor]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I'd like to see more villains that 350-point heroes have a prayer of defeating.

[Blue]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I'd like to see more villains that 350-point heroes have a prayer of defeating.

I call those "Viper Agents"

[JJR]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I'd like to see more villains that 350-point heroes have a prayer of defeating.

Here are 39 of them from ckc that an average 350 point hero can beat one on one:

 

Warbird

Warcry

Warhead

Warmonger

Warpath

Bloodstone

Black Diamond

Blue Jay

Cheshire Cat

Hummingbird

Psimon

Hypnos

Lancer

Medusa

Torment

Radium

Armadillo

Black Harlequin

Blowtorch

Brainchild

Bulldozer

Cybermind

Esper

Fenris

Foxbat

Herculan

Hornet

Lady Blue

Lazer

Leech

Menagerie

Morningstar

Ogre

Riptide

Stormfront

Thorn

Thunderbolt

Vibron

Zigzag

 

That is nearly half of the book. Not including the big guns the other 35-40 villains in the book can easily be beaten by 2-6 players in a team.

 

I really think too many people do not read ckc past the master villains section in the front. Most of the villains in the book have been too weak to stand up to two or more heroes, not too powerful.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

An average 350-point hero, or an average 350-point hero built on the guidelines Steve has set (12d6 attack, 5 SPD, 20 Defenses for a typical character)? Several of the villains you mention are built on 350 points, but many have a significant advantage in power level.

 

Case in point - Lady Blue. 12d6 attack meets the standards above, as does her 5 SPD. But she's got 26/28 defenses. That's a significant advantage over a typical character built under the 5E standard superhero guidelines.

 

Or Thunderbolt. He has standard 20/20 Defenses, and on the surface his attacks are pretty wimpy. But with an 8 SPD and 16d6 Move-Throughs, he can really tear apart a 350-point CU superhero.

 

Or Hornet. A 19 DCV character is basically unhittable (using standard guidelines) unless your character is fortunate enough to have AoE/Explosion attacks. Which basically means that AoE characters will paste him, and everyone else will lose.

 

You've also listed some supervillains that aren't designed to be the equivalent of a standard superhero. Brainchild runs from superheroes. Likewise, Cybermind is pretty much useless in a fight (unless one of the superheroes is a robot), and his psych lims back this up.

 

What's scary is that Bulldozer is a serious challenge for superheroes created under the standard guidelines, and he's always been meant to be a joke. With 24/24 Defenses, a 30 CON, and 70 STUN, he has a lot of staying power.

 

The problem I have with the CKC Villains is that many have cool concepts that just don't work out well in actual play. Shrinker is the worst offender - 5E turned her from an interesting opponent into a nearly unstoppable villain that you'll never see (quite literally, with Affects Real World and Transdimensional attacks).

 

Maybe a third of the characters in the book can give a 350-point hero a decent fight in one-on-one combat, without either trouncing the hero or being stopped into the ground easily. Perhaps another third can be fought by a team of heroes (unfortunately, some are in their own team). The rest are untouchable without raising the campaign guidelines, or just have such odd power writeups that they're unsuitable for the game.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I thought some of the CKC crooks were supposed to unstoppable head-on, even the low-level ones, thereby forcing the PCs to get clever and use teamwork/the environment/clever power tricks/the villain's psychology to stop them.

[Blue]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Let me say first that 1-on-1 combats almost never happen in my game. It's not that I don't like them, it's more that there are 8 heroes, so it just doesn't come up and I'd hate to make 7 people sit around and watch.

 

But I think most heroes tend to stack an ability, making it tough on the villains. I don't think anyone you sighted up there would be unbeatable for my 275pt Heroine, Anthem. Bulldozer, due to her low damage powers, would be the biggest problem, and Lady Blue would be a long fight (because Anthem has better defenses and lower attacks), but I think through ingenuity and skill she had a good shot at 3 out of the 4. And she's not even a munckin'd character.

 

I think the characters above are not prohibitive. Villains are supposed to be a challenge. None of those guys are unbeatable for a 350pt hero.

[JJR]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Case in point - Lady Blue. 12d6 attack meets the standards above' date=' as does her 5 SPD. But she's got 26/28 defenses. That's a significant advantage over a typical character built under the 5E standard superhero guidelines.[/quote']

She is a 3 hit villain. The extra 6-8 defense does nothing for her. 42 – 28 = 14 * 3 = 42. On the third hit she falls. She’s a good fight but no real advantage.

 

Or Thunderbolt. He has standard 20/20 Defenses, and on the surface his attacks are pretty wimpy. But with an 8 SPD and 16d6 Move-Throughs, he can really tear apart a 350-point CU superhero.

Sure, unless he is fighting a brick, a hero with flight, or someone with martial throw.

 

Or Hornet. A 19 DCV character is basically unhittable (using standard guidelines) unless your character is fortunate enough to have AoE/Explosion attacks. Which basically means that AoE characters will paste him, and everyone else will lose.

It’s called spreading 1d6 to hit an area’s 3 dcv.

 

You've also listed some supervillains that aren't designed to be the equivalent of a standard superhero. Brainchild runs from superheroes. Likewise, Cybermind is pretty much useless in a fight (unless one of the superheroes is a robot), and his psych lims back this up.

The point was to list heroes which can be beaten by 350 point heroes, as you think there are not enough of them.

 

What's scary is that Bulldozer is a serious challenge for superheroes created under the standard guidelines, and he's always been meant to be a joke. With 24/24 Defenses, a 30 CON, and 70 STUN, he has a lot of staying power.

You forget that the standard guidelines you keep toting list up to 14d6 attacks as allowed by starting characters. He is not tougher than any other 14d6 character, especially a starting brick.

 

Maybe a third of the characters in the book can give a 350-point hero a decent fight in one-on-one combat, without either trouncing the hero or being stopped into the ground easily. Perhaps another third can be fought by a team of heroes (unfortunately, some are in their own team). The rest are untouchable without raising the campaign guidelines, or just have such odd power writeups that they're unsuitable for the game.

Outside of the 6 master villains in the book none of the villains are untouchable by a standard superhero team. That is a far cry from your 30 untouchable.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

She is a 3 hit villain. The extra 6-8 defense does nothing for her. 42 ? 28 = 14 * 3 = 42. On the third hit she falls. She?s a good fight but no real advantage.

There's no shame in being a 3-hit villain when you fight 2-hit heroes (Defender, Nighthawk, Sapphire, Witchcraft). She'll stun Nighthawk or Witchcraft with her standard attack, making the disparity even worse.

 

Sure, unless he is fighting a brick, a hero with flight, or someone with martial throw.

Flight trumps all ground characters, so that's a bit of a straw man. Bracing with STR or using a martial throw only works when you have an action - and Thunderbolt has a 27 DEX. Chances are he'll go first - he will against any of the Champions.

 

It?s called spreading 1d6 to hit an area?s 3 dcv.

Sorry. The spreading rules don't let you sacrifice 1 DC to get a +1/2 advantage on your power. It's +1 OCV per 1 DC sacrificed, which is a lot of lost dice to have a decent chance of hitting a 19 DCV. You may be thinking of sacrificing 1 DC to get a normal attack roll to hit everyone in a hex.

 

The point was to list heroes which can be beaten by 350 point heroes, as you think there are not enough of them.

Still don't. CKC was the first compendium of Champions supervillains for 5E - I would have liked to see a larger focus on the starting character.

 

He is not tougher than any other 14d6 character, especially a starting brick.

Not the point. The point is that Bulldozer was comic relief in 4E. Heck, female characters could usually one-shot him. He's a lot less comic relief than he used to be.

 

Outside of the 6 master villains in the book none of the villains are untouchable by a standard superhero team. That is a far cry from your 30 untouchable.

Try taking Firewing down with the Champions. Or Holocaust. Or Shrinker (you won't even find her). And many of the villains that are touchable by a standard superhero team have groups of their own. They're better one-on-one, and their teams are at least as large as the 5-man iconic hero group.

 

I'm not saying the product is unusable. But I believe that novice GM's are better served with writeups that stay close to the campaign guidelines, while experienced GM's generally create their own villains, or rewrite published ones to fit their campaign.

[JJR]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I'm not saying the product is unusable. But I believe that novice GM's are better served with writeups that stay close to the campaign guidelines' date=' while experienced GM's generally create their own villains, or rewrite published ones to fit their campaign.[/quote']

We obvious disagree, and nothing will be gained from the debate. I would point out that I was not discussing the Champions team in my example. I was discussing starting player characters. The Champions are poorly designed for starting characters, some of them not even properly designed by the rules.

 

I also do not believe that just because a villain was considered a "joke" in 4th means they need to be considered that way in 5th. This is a new game and a new universe and it would not hurt most of us to let go of some of our historical ideas about what things used to be.

[pinecone]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I'd like to see a few "grey" heros/villians, not evil, not good. I used to use a merc team that came to be well regarded by the heros ,they often fought them ,but did not cross the line far enough to be prosacuted. this can also be convertable villians that can be salvaged by a charismatic hero. I'm not asking for a bunch, but a few would be Very nice....

[Enforcer84]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I think what I would really like is to see some of the villian niches filled out more.

 

-By the time VVV comes out we will have all the new mystic baddies from The Mystic World and it's enemies book, so I would like to see VVV go really light on magic powered villians.

 

-A couple of general teams built on about the same power level as starting PCs. (Which I see Steve has already said he is planning on)

 

-A mercinary Team. While Laser, Utility, Mechassasin, and co are great for your baddies needing some super backup they can't take a whole PC group in open combat by themselves. Rather than having my rich masterminds hire a collection of Mercs all the time I would love to see a whole team that makes themselves avalible. Preferably a team with a common theame to tie them together.

I get a lot of mileage out of the Destruction Company and a modified verison of Bullet's raiders in my own campaign.

 

-More villians with motivations beyond money that are not themselves "Second Tier Master Villians".

A rabid anti-IHA mutant

Someone with a bone to pick with the government or a major corporation

Someone who commits awful crimes to try and cure an ailing loved one

An architect or engineer who has powers and now seeks to destroy all the things created from his designs.

Several "one trick ponies" with interesting powers that the players have to think to defeat but are not actual world busters. (I loved Deadweight from Enemies for Hire for this function)

Deadweight was from Enemies of San Angelo IIRC

[Jhamin]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Deadweight was from Enemies of San Angelo IIRC

 

Not that you mention it, I believe you are correct.

 

How could I have missed that? I loved that book!

 

It's not as special compared to some of the products coming out now, but toward the end of 4th edition alot of the writups were looking depressingly uniform. Flight, multipower with the same 5 slots, and either Armor or 0End force fields. Writeups were feeling very "mechanic"y and not very "this is my power"

 

Enemies of San Angelo actually just gave a guy a power then wrote up the effects of having that power. At the time it was a breath of fresh air.

 

Wisp, Deadweight, Kalidoscope, the guy with the EDM mirror (shatter?), and so on. The were fun in a way bad guys hadn't been for several supplaments.

 

Now I'm getting all nostalgic. Does anyone know if they are coming back for the new San Angelo?

[JJR]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Now I'm getting all nostalgic. Does anyone know if they are coming back for the new San Angelo?

I do not believe san angelo is coming back. Reports from gold rush games seem to be that they are in serious financial troubles and are hoping on some licensing thing to give them some cash influx. I would not expect any thing new for san angelo unless you are planning on licensing the setting yourself.

[JJR]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Just to bring my comments back on topic, there seems to be between 50 and 100 names on the villain pdf of characters who do not have write ups. I would think any or all of them would make good additions to the champions world. I do not see any reason to invent even more new villains where there are so many current 'new' villains which do not have a write up of any type.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

Deadweight was from Enemies of San Angelo IIRC

 

I prefered MasterMind(formerly Mind Master). A vigilante Mentalist, now that's scarry.

 

QM.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I do not believe san angelo is coming back. Reports from gold rush games seem to be that they are in serious financial troubles and are hoping on some licensing thing to give them some cash influx. I would not expect any thing new for san angelo unless you are planning on licensing the setting yourself.

 

I saw that news on their website myself. Most disheartening, especially for our friend and boardmate RPMiller, who was hired to oversee the SA revamp. Hopefully things will turn around for GRG, but it doesn't sound like we'll see new San Angelo product anytime soon.

 

I guess that would also mean we won't see new versions of the SA villains, since I would expect the rights to them all reverted to Gold Rush when they bought back the property.

[lemming]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I do not believe san angelo is coming back. Reports from gold rush games seem to be that they are in serious financial troubles and are hoping on some licensing thing to give them some cash influx. I would not expect any thing new for san angelo unless you are planning on licensing the setting yourself.

Oh crap.

[Blue]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

That's awful. I actually go out of my way to buy Hero Books, even when I'm not sure I'll use them, because I feel it supports the smaller companies and I have the resource available that I'll likely kick myself for not buying if I skip it. As a result, I have 1.5 and Dragon's Gate. I liked both products though I have yet to incorporate them into my world. It's a shame to see something respected dry up and go the way of the Condor, the Dodo, and the Original Runequest.

[death tribble]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I went back into USPD. And two others that are there that we need are Plague (long term Hero villain) and Mindgame.

Plus a couple of the unnamed ones, like the French mime.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I went back into USPD. And two others that are there that we need are Plague (long term Hero villain) and Mindgame.

Plus a couple of the unnamed ones, like the French mime.

 

I can see superheroes lining up to beat on a supervillainous French mime.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

I vote for Hermit to be included

[wcw43921]

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

 

For myself, I'd like to see Beamline restored to the Champions universe--I always thought he had one of the more interesting motivations for being a villain, as well as one of the more nifty origins. (Also, I liked Patrick Zircher's drawing of Beamline in Classic ENEMIES, and I figure that if there's ever a Champions TV series, they could get Robert Picardo to play the part--or at least do the voice if it's an animated series.)

 

Other than that, I have no problem with all-new characters. Go to town, Steve.