Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

[Supreme Serpent]

Somewhat of a "Hero System Discussion" forum type question, but mainly applies to supers games, so I thought it would fit better here.

 

Do you think battlesuits are too good of a deal in HERO/Champions? Do you think they require more GM oversight than many other concepts?

 

Just thinking out loud. Aside from price break (normally OIF, though certainly other ways to build them), it can be an incredibly broad SFX. Coupled with the cost breaks, a battlesuit character can have a very broad range of options, incorporating many varied SFX without many batting too much of an eye at it. (I recognize there are other concepts that can do this as well, like mages, etc.)

 

A typical battlesuit hero could "reasonably" be a brick, fly, and have a variety of ranged attacks with different SFX, including things like a flash, an entangle, etc. all within the "I'm a battlesuit" SFX.

 

Now, I like battlesuits, and Iron Man is one of my favorite characters from comics, and I like a lot of battlesuit villains as well. But it can IMO sometimes feel like a bit broad of a concept compared to others.

 

Anyone feel similarly? Ever have issues with it in your campaigns? Ever have similar issues with other concepts, like Superman-types that want every power eventually? Anyone notice their more power-gamer players tending towards battlesuits over other concepts?

 

Curious.

[Hermit]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Truthfully, the same could be said for superarcher types with lots of trick arrows and many other typical focus types. It is a great way to save points...

but it's also a great way to end up being helpless when that Focus gets taken or destroyed. I like common SFXs, but one down side for the player of them is that they allow you to rationalize group dispells and surpresses on them, and that includes the powered armor SFX. I haven't had too many abuses with it in my campaign because the powered armor types just aren't popular with them so I'm not one to say, but I have told them about the challenges of relying on outside sources for power, and it seems they took them to heart.

[incrdbil]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Do you think battlesuits are too good of a deal in HERO/Champions? Do you think they require more GM oversight than many other concepts?

 

Just thinking out loud. Aside from price break (normally OIF, though certainly other ways to build them), it can be an incredibly broad SFX.

 

No more than mutant powers, magic or anything else that grants a wide spectrum of powers and can take limitation similar to the most common ones for battlesuits--HIDO, OIF.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Simply amplify the Limitation.

 

A Focus can be Take Away, Taken Off, and even Not Available.

 

Some Foci Break, others are susceptable to Common Attacks ("EMP" - Drain, Dispel, Suppress, etc... vs. Technological Devices)

 

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

P.S.: Any System, Game Mechanic, etc... can be abused, manipulated, etc... A GM has to roll with the punches and work around it.

[Edsel]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

If they are run properly they are not too flexible and efficient. Most poeple buy powered armor as an OIF. The thing that has to be enforced in this case is that the armor can be taken from the character in one out-of-combat turn. If such a character is rendered unconsious, and the bad guys have a turn out-of-combat, then they certainly ought to try and take the focus away, that's what makes it a limitation.

 

To properly build armor like Iron Man's the suit would take quite a bit more than one turn to remove from him. It would actually be beyond the means of most people to remove it at all. Such armor should gain no focus bonus but it might be fitting to take OIHID (-1/4) as a limitation.

[aylwin13]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

The Global Guardians house rules have an interesting limitation for battlesuits. It looks to add a bit more "realism" as far as taking away the 'suit and damage to the 'suit are concerned. I'm planning on revising my powered-armor character Paladin using this limitation.

 

The writeup below is found on the Global Guardians website, on the House Rules page, under New Limitations (used without permission).

 

 

Battlesuit (-½): The Battlesuit Limitation functions similarly to the Focus Limitation. However, it has several important differences, mainly dealing with defense and breakability. Instead of being breakable, a Battlesuit suffers a chance of system failure. The chance is a flat 5 or less, plus 1 per point of Body suffered by the character wearing the Battlesuit. The modifier is additive to itself, and remains in place until the Battlesuit is repaired. When system failure occurs, one power purchased with the Battlesuit Limitation (determined by the GM) stops working. Until the suit is repaired, the character cannot use that power.

If the character wearing the Battlesuit takes Body Damage, a Battlesuit system is affected (as per the Focus rules). Roll 3d6 and consult the chart below. (Note that the chart does have a cascade effect so more than one system can blow.) If the chart indicates system damage that is inapplicable to the character (for example, if his Battlesuit has no Life Support system), then the Body damage has no effect.

 

3 Life Support System (Random Life Support Power Destroyed)

4 Energy Source (Endurance Reserve Destroyed)

5 Minor Energy Systems Overload (Character Suffers 2d6 Stun Damage With No Defense)

6 Exoskeleton (Random Characteristic Enhancement Destroyed)

7 Motive Systems (Random Movement Power Destroyed)

8 Weapon System (Random Attack Power Destroyed)

9 Defensive System (Random Defense Power Destroyed)

10 Defensive System (Random Special Defense Power Destroyed)

11 Sensor Systems (Random Enhanced Sense Destroyed)

12 Sensor Systems (Random Enhanced Sense Destroyed)

13 Motive Systems (Random Movement Power Destroyed)

14 Weapon System (Random Attack Power Destroyed)

15 Defensive System (Random Defense Power Destroyed)

16 Defense System (Random Defense Power Destroyed)

17 Major Energy Systems Overload (Character Suffers 4d6 Stun Damage with No Defense)

18 Cascade (Apply Result 17 and Roll 3d6 Again; If 18 is Rolled a Second Time, Apply Result 16 and Roll Again; If 18 is Rolled a Third Time, Apply

Result 15 and So On Until a Result of 18 is No Longer Rolled)

 

Unlike a Focus, the Battlesuit cannot be removed from a character in a single turn. Removing a Battlesuit is more likely to take hours.

Powers purchased with the Battlesuit Limitation may not also take the Focus, Only In Hero Identity, or Cybernetics Limitations. All primary characteristics purchased through the Battlesuit must also take the -½ Limitation Does Not Affect Figured Characteristics. Multiforms, Elemental Controls, and Variable Power Pools count as a single power for the purposes of Systems Failure.

There are certain powers that should not be taken with this Limitation, since they are not "systems" that can be damaged or manipulated in combat, but are rather inherent properties of the Battlesuit. The best example of this would be Armor. Where the Battlesuit Limitation is not appropriate, the power should be purchased with the Only In Hero Identity Limitation.

 

New Battlesuit Options:

• Components Are Extremely Difficult To Repair or Replace (-½): The character will have to go to extraordinary lengths to repair or replace the component in question. It is built from rare technology, requires a lot of time and money, or otherwise will leave the character without the item for a while. The special effects and concept of the battlesuit will determine the actual effects of the device being missing.
  
  
• Components Are Impossible To Repair or Replace (-1): The components making up the
  Battlesuit
  are the only ones of their kind available to the character. If the components are lost, they cannot be replaced at all. The points spent on the device will have to be spent on something else. This Limitation should only be used with the more exotic powers, such as
  Desolidification
  or
  Teleportation
  .

[Victim]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

I can never make a battlesuit I like.

 

While points savings are significant and the sfx is broad enough to allow many things, the sfx also demands many things as well. After a bunch of points of enhanced senses, life supports, and of course the skills needed to have the suit in the first place, the battlesuit isn't really getting any more bang for their buck than other characters. Since the battlesuit's powers are designed not bestowed, there's really no excuse for not having some of these powers. It's a huge point sink. Also, many battlesuit powers (armor, lifesupport, senses) are framework unfriendly.

[gojira]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

To properly build armor like Iron Man's the suit would take quite a bit more than one turn to remove from him. It would actually be beyond the means of most people to remove it at all. Such armor should gain no focus bonus but it might be fitting to take OIHID (-1/4) as a limitation.

 

I like to play battlesuit characters, and this idea is spot on. If you have a battlesuit, and you buy all powers OIF, you'd better be very competant with out the suit, or you'll be in big trouble. Or buy all suit powers OIHID. But then you get much less of a bonus.

 

As a GM, I'd enforce this idea. No player should be usless if his focus gets taken away. It's just not fun. If the focus basically never gets taken, then it's OIHID, which is much fairer in terms of points. I'd probably not allow OIHID for a character with Instant Change as well, that's just "I activate my powers." A battlesuit should take at least a minute to put on or take off. No "linked to" either, that's just cheese.

[st barbara]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

If they are run properly they are not too flexible and efficient. Most poeple buy powered armor as an OIF. The thing that has to be enforced in this case is that the armor can be taken from the character in one out-of-combat turn. If such a character is rendered unconsious, and the bad guys have a turn out-of-combat, then they certainly ought to try and take the focus away, that's what makes it a limitation.

 

To properly build armor like Iron Man's the suit would take quite a bit more than one turn to remove from him. It would actually be beyond the means of most people to remove it at all. Such armor should gain no focus bonus but it might be fitting to take OIHID (-1/4) as a limitation.

I can think of a couple of characters at Marvel who would have no trouble "taking away" (or at least rendering innefective) "Iron Man's" armour (if they were ever written properly.) "The Melter" and "Magneto" come to mind !

[assault]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

While points savings are significant and the sfx is broad enough to allow many things' date=' the sfx also demands many things as well. [/quote']

 

No, the sfx don't "demand" anything at all. Iron Man isn't the only battlesuit character.

 

After a bunch of points of enhanced senses, life supports, and of course the skills needed to have the suit in the first place, the battlesuit isn't really getting any more bang for their buck than other characters.

 

In other words: after buying a whole lot of stuff, battlesuit characters only get to buy as much other stuff as other characters.

 

The advantage of battlesuits is precisely that they can buy "a bunch of points of enhanced senses, life supports, and of course the skills needed" as well as having as much bang for their buck as other characters.

 

Also, many battlesuit powers (armor, lifesupport, senses) are framework unfriendly.

 

Well boo hoo. They get a focus limitation, and, in any case, are often powers that other characters will want to buy as well. But in a lot of cases, other characters won't be able to afford them, because they are paying full points for them.

 

As far as the main question in the thread is concerned, I don't have any particular problem with battlesuits. But, it is a fact that they get significant cost breaks that make them relatively tough compared to other characters. And the fact that they will get hosed occasionally only partly counteracts that.

 

It's not a problem, but it does mean that Iron Man (or Green Lantern), not Superman, is likely to be the most powerful/flexible member of a superteam.

 

Oh yes, Green Lantern: like a battlesuit, but with different special effects.

[austenandrews]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Does anyone still allow OIF on battlesuits?

 

Personally I think power armor lends itself nicely to both ECs and MPs, particularly with the "One Drain affects them all" characteristic. But admittedly I don't make many power armor characters, and when I do I don't try to load them down as much as Iron Man.

[incrdbil]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

 

The advantage of battlesuits is precisely that they can buy "a bunch of points of enhanced senses, life supports, and of course the skills needed" as well as having as much bang for their buck as other characters.

 

 

Battlesuits have no advantages. No FX has an advantage. If a Battlesuit fx using charcater gets too much, its because the GM doesn't enforce the limitations chosen to represent that players particualr interpretation of Battlesuits. Battlesuits wide rangely from think, clot like substances, to hulking huge sets, items that can take minutes to put on, or teleport on you..IE, Dr. Destroyer wears a Battlesuit, but as it has no limita

[incrdbil]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

 

The advantage of battlesuits is precisely that they can buy "a bunch of points of enhanced senses, life supports, and of course the skills needed" as well as having as much bang for their buck as other characters.

 

 

Battlesuits have no advantages. No FX has an advantage. If a Battlesuit fx using charcater gets too much, its because the GM doesn't enforce the limitations chosen to represent that players particualr interpretation of Battlesuits. Battlesuits wide rangely from think, clot like substances, to hulking huge sets, items that can take minutes to put on, or teleport on you..IE, Dr. Destroyer wears a Battlesuit, but as it has no limitaions, theirs no special advantage or drawback to it.

 

If your OIF focus battlesuit guy has any drawbacks, they should be no more than any other focus using character.

 

If his suit is HIDO, he should be no more or no less limited than by mutant herform guy.

 

Battlesuits cannot be too efficient or too flexible. They are an fx, and an fx does not define either of those categories.

[Zed-F]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Does anyone still allow OIF on battlesuits?

Sure. Why not? It's just a matter of enforcing the limitation. No big deal.

[incrdbil]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

I allow an OIF on a battlesuit if it is of a type that can be damaged in combat. I highly reccomend HIDO instead, but if thats what they want...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Does anyone still allow OIF on battlesuits?

 

Personally I think power armor lends itself nicely to both ECs and MPs, particularly with the "One Drain affects them all" characteristic. But admittedly I don't make many power armor characters, and when I do I don't try to load them down as much as Iron Man.

Ooh! Ooh! Me!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

If you have a character who, through the use of powered armor, or anyother point saving mechanism, is at or near the campaign maximum for Offense, Defense, and mobility; regardless of what the guy calls himself, most villains will come to know him as "Target: Alpha".

[GoldenAge]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

What do you guys think of this write-up for Iron-Man???

 

Iron Man (Anthony Stark)

Characteristics

18 STR 8

20 DEX 30

18 CON 16

14 BOD 8

23 INT 13

17 EGO 14

18 PRE 8

18 COM 4

8 PD 4

8 ED 4

5 SPD 20

8 REC -

36 END -

32 STN -

= 129

 

Disadvantages

5 DNPC "Random Stark Employees", Normal, Useful Skills, 8-

15 Distinctive Features, Not Concealable

10 Hunted: The Mandarin (AP, 8-)

10 Hunted: Roxxon Corp (LP, NCI, 8-)

15 Phys Lim: If End Battery is Empty, suit locks up (infreq, Fully)

10 Phys Lim: Loses 1 power when takes body - GM's choice (Infreq, Greatly)

15 Phys Lim: Alcoholic (infreq, fully)

15 Secret ID

638 Millionaire Industrialist Playboy Bonus

= 733

 

Powers

17 +30 Str, Doesn't Add, OIHID [3b]

18 +6 Body, +10 Pre OIHID

96 32/32 Armor, Hardened, OIHID

48 1/2 Resistant Physical & Energy Damage Reduction, OIHID

18 Life Support: Self Contained, Pressure, Temp, Rad, Disease, OIHID

4 5pts Lack of Weakness, OIHID

6 10pt Flash Def, OIHID, lets 1 point through (-1/2)

91 Multipower, OIHID

9u 33" Flight, 0 End, x16 non-combat (985mph) "Boot Jets"

3u +10" Running, 0 End on 16" of Running "Skates"

 

2 Bump of Direction, OIHID "Gyroscopic Guidance System"

 

102 Multipower: 120pts OIHID, +20pts x5 End OIHID

10u 16d6 Energy Blast, +4d6 [10b] "Repulsors"

9u 13 1/2d6 Energy Blast, Variable Special Effects, No KB, 0 End, +2d6 EB, VSE, No KB, x5 End [10b] "Uni-beam"

4u 12d6 Entangle, 1 Body Only, 2ch "Freon Pellets"

 

4 End Battery: 40 End, 1 rec, OIHID

13 6d6 Energy Absorb to End Battery, Only vs Heat/Cold Attacks (-1), OIHID "Thermocouples"

47 4d6 Energy Absorb, Absorbs into Attack Multipower and Str (+2), -5pts/5 minutes (+1/2), +20 Max, Only vs Elec, OIHID

13 +50 Str, OIHID, Doesn't Add, x5 End [25b]

 

3 IR Vision, OIHID, Not on by default (-1/4)

3 UV Vision, OIHID, Not on by default (-1/4)

2 Ultrasonic Hearing, OIHID, Not on by default (-1/4)

7 x1000 Microscope Vision, OIHID

7 x1000 Telescope Vision, OIHID

20 Radar, 360 degrees, OIHID

8 High Range Radio, OIHID

 

16 Change Environment: 4" Radius, OIHID "Searchlight"

17 Change Environment: 16" Radius, OIHID, No Rng "Voice Amplifier"

 

21 Bugging, Computer Programming, Cryptography, Deduction, Inventor, Security Systems, Tactics 14-

9 Bureacratics, High Society, Seduction, 13-

6 Mechanics, Electronics 11-

6 Weaponsmith: Lasers, Plasma, Sonics, Exoskeletal armor 11-

9 Scientist: Metallurgy, Computers, Robotics, Micromotors, Magnetism, Physics 11-

3 French

10 +2 w/Sciences

40 4 Overall levels

15 Filthy Rich

5 Avenger's Clearance

4 Radio Listen/Transmit IIF (Avenger's Comm Card)

= 725 (Total: 854 character points, 733 in disadvantages)

 

This is the Mark V armor. (Red & Gold, A round disk (the uni-beam) and 2 rivet/nipples on the chest). This is the version he wore from around issue 80 of his comic up to when he lost control of Stark Int. to Stane. This is my personal favorite version, and I don't think there is enough info on the new armor yet.

 

This is Iron Man as he appeared in the Avengers. In his own comic, he's got a suit pool and has several different suits available at any time, but this version is a good representation of his standard abilities.

 

OIHID = Only in Hero ID (-1/4).

 

The flash defense is special darkened lenses, they drop into place automatically when Iron Man is flashed, but they aren't fast enough to keep him from being momentarily blinded - so they always let the first point through.

 

Several of his enhanced systems are not 'On by default', so he won't do an IR scan unless he has some reason to do so. Assume that his normal vision does not work when he is scanning other parts of the spectrum.

 

Write-up copyright © 1995 by Sam Bell (sam@eng.sun.com); comments about the page layout should be addressed to Jack Wilson (deejay@cu-online.com). Permission granted to duplicate and transmit, as long as this note is not removed.

[CDad]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

I treat Powered Armor as a real weapon, needing upkeep & parts. Also, the character either needs skills to build/maintain/modify it OR have someone else, and if there is someone else there needs to be contacts/disads/whatever to explain it.

 

Also, getting captured and waking up in your skivvies is not a great thing.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

If you have a character who' date=' through the use of powered armor, or anyother point saving mechanism, is at or near the campaign maximum for Offense, Defense, and mobility; regardless of what the guy calls himself, most villains will come to know him as "Target: Alpha". [/quote']

 

Depending on the exact writeup involved, you might be playing right into his hands.

 

In cases where one PC is far and away the most effective and resiliant (simultaneously) combatant, it is frequently more advantageous for the villains to disregard the tough one and maul the weaker characters so that they have the opportunity to dog-pile on the tough one with no interference after the easy ones have been eliminated.

[Mike W]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

I don't think the battlesuit is necessarily a broader concept than most other character types. We just naturally think of them that way. But what about a brick who has super strength(of course), flies, has a ranged AOE attack(thunderclap) with a sound flash built on, and another AOE(line or radius) that can knock people off their feet(ground strike)? And that's just off the top of my head. A martial artist with a few gadgets(like a ninja) can have all sorts of funky powers - flashes, ranged attacks/missile weapons, KA, HA, throws, superleap(vaulting poles), NNDs, and so on.

 

As for cost effectiveness, well, yes, the battlesuit is a very efficient build. Other concepts can be nearly as effective if you get a bit creative and tack on a framework of some sort(EC and VPP come to mind). Of course, the battlesuit usually requires that you buy a bunch of tech skills which, while useful, tend to eat up a lot of the points you save rather quickly. We had a thread on these forums last year that conservatively estimated that you need around 8 skills to build a battlesuit. Also, more options means buying either more skill levels or more expensive skill levels to have the same CVs as a more specialized character.

[OddHat]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Any limitation that applies to large numbers of the character's powers or characteristics has to be looked at carefully, and any limitation that goes un-enforced is meaningless.

 

All of that said, I don't have a problem with a character who has one or two simple to track and enforce limitations, so long as the player is good and the character fits the campaign. Power Suit guy will get caught without the suit, Power Ring guy will get the ring swiped now and again, OIHID guy will occasionally be trapped in his non-heroic ID one way or another. As a GM, part of my responsibility is to make sure that the other characters are viable in the campaign and that the players are having fun. If No Limitations or Frameworks Man is playing, he may be out-powered some of the time by the Iron Man and Captain Marvel tributes, but I'll make sure to give him his share of time in the spotlight.

[assault]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

Of course' date=' the battlesuit usually requires that you buy a bunch of tech skills which, while useful, tend to eat up a lot of the points you save rather quickly. [/quote']

 

These are just the same old non-combat skills most other characters buy anyway. They're not an overhead specific to this kind of character.

 

Also, more options means buying either more skill levels or more expensive skill levels to have the same CVs as a more specialized character.

 

Maybe. Alternatively the character can buy skill levels for their preferred attack(s) and neglect the others.

 

And that's assuming that the character actually bothers to buy skill levels.

[WarriorKnight]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

but it's also a great way to end up being helpless when that Focus gets taken or destroyed.

Yea in our Champions campagins,all the PA/PS characters tremble in fear of Engineer.The wrost was when Engineer took over Man-Montain's armor & was having him wade through traffic & start destroying cars full of people(He has a 20pt CVK),MM started tearing out wires in his suit with his teeth.He got messed up very badly.

[Mike W]

Re: Battlesuits: Too efficient and flexible?

 

These are just the same old non-combat skills most other characters buy anyway. They're not an overhead specific to this kind of character.

 

 

 

 

Maybe. Alternatively the character can buy skill levels for their preferred attack(s) and neglect the others.

 

And that's assuming that the character actually bothers to buy skill levels.

 

True, but the typical battlesuit guy won't have good enough CVs to hit much without putting some CSLs on his attacks. At least in any campaing I've ever played in or run he wouldn't because his DEX is average at best. And while the tech skills can somewhat fall under the province of "skill points everyone ends up spending", the long list of tech skills, many of which don't get used much once the game starts can add up really quickly. Sure, some of them like Electronics or Computer Program will come up a lot, but how often does SS: Lasers really come up? And people expect the Techie to buy a ton of skills like that so that no one else has to. Heck, I've seen people a lot of techies get asked point blank "What kind of a scientist are you?" or the equivalent for not having a needed tech skill. And it was only half joking.