WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

[arosslaw]

Yes, yes, I know. This old chestnut again. Apologies and all that, but here we go again . . .

 

I love the Hero System. Love it. Have played since 1st ed, have bought everything Steve et al has pubilshed for 5e and will continue to do so. BUT, I don't run the game and have not in years. Why, because with any other system I want to use I can usually get 2-4 combats in per session. With Hero, I'm lucky to pull off 1-2.

 

What makes it so darn slow and what can we do about it? Is it the speed chart? Other games have convulted initiative systems (look at Exalted). Hero actually maps it out so everyone always knows when everyone goes. That should speed things up, if anything. Counting all the damage dice? Maybe. Too much math with roll under and combating CVs? I don't know.

 

For all you actually running the system, what do you find causes things to slow down the most and what have you done to fix it? Thanks!

[SableWyvern]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I haven't actually ran a session yet...

 

However, I've picked up two things from about the place that I plan to implement from the start:

 

1. A roll high to-hit system (OCV+3d6, seeking to equal or beat 10+DCV). Discussed recently here, although I can't recall the originator so as to give him credit.

 

2. A modified version of the Standard Effect rule. All dice rolls will be capped at 3d6, with extra dice of damage adding a flat bonus. I've streamlined the bonuses a bit to maintain the same average result as actually rolling everything, rather then giving a straight +3 per d6, which offers deteriorating returns with larger handfuls of dice. I'm pretty sure I nabbed this idea from a discussion on this very topic over on RPG.net.

 

I look forward to seeing other people's ideas in this thread, and hope there's more stuff I can steal.

[nexus]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Honestly, I've never found Hero Combat any slower then other systems. Its funny you mention Exalted since, particuarly in 2ed edition I've found it MUCH slower and more complicated than Hero System combat with the added hassle of runnig across rules White Wolf didn't define or didn't think out. For that matter, many Exalted players need a tool (a battlewheel) to keep track on initiative in that game. Hero name the segment and start counting down Dexterity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I find much of the slowdown is players (and GM's) taking extended periods of time to analyze every possible alernative in an effort to optimize their action. Try restricting this. For example:

 

- You have 5 seconds to declare your action. If you don't devcide in that five seconds (which is more time than your entire phase occupies in game time!), your character hesitates (delays his phase) and the next person in action order gets to move.

 

- Absolutely no counting of hexes permitted. You don't get to ocunt out the hexes to determine how close you can get with a half move, or what yur range penalties will be. You simply announce "I will move closer to Bulldozer, and fire my EB at him when I'm within 4" or at the end of my half move", or "I will rush Bulldozer - if I can, I'll close and punch him, otherwise I'll do a move through". Not count count count; determine who I can get to in a half move; pick one to attack".

[lensman]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Games can be slowed by numnerous factors, here are some I have encountered and my solutions

 

Players who are learning the system.

 

1. Player aids. Have spreadsheets for defenses and ready calculations for PD ED, special def. and AP, Pen. and what is hardened.

 

Do same for OCV, range mods, and Actions in a Phase

I posted a xls sheet ofr this kind of thing here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56862

Post #10 in thread.

 

2. Use 11 + OCV. Subtract roll of 3d6 and that generates a DCV hit. Subtract that same 3 d6 number again to generate DCV hit critically.

 

3. I use a chart that generates damage from 7 d6 to 20 d6 down a column of a 3 d6 result. It's somewhere, I don't recall where I snagged it from.

 

The environmentalist player

By this I mean a player who wants to know if there is a fire hydrant nearby, or a fire extinguisher, or a man hole cover. Things in an environment that are not drawn in detail on a map but that might be of use.

 

1. Simple die roll of 3 d6. Low result means something is there, high result, zip.

 

2. If you as GM know you have this kind of player be prepared. Generate a likely set of objects and dole themn out by saying, "Well, you see this..."

 

High Skill use or skill mongers.

By this I mean a player who wants to use Acrobatics, then breakfall out of a climb roll to activate levels in DCV and Missle deflection, using a PER roll ... you get the idea.

 

1. Besides just keeping track, some characters just take longer. Bricks are simpler than Martial Artists. As GM, know the character mechanics as well as the player, if not better.

 

Indecisive, hesitant player

Lacks the War gamer gene, not tactically minded or too numerous character abilities for Player skill

 

1. Depending on genre limit player time for action. Have a scale for time that rewards characters with combat experience and nip it for inexperienced types.

If you get this type player with this type character, then embolden them by pointing out that every decision they make (Backed up with the skill rolls) was sound and alter antagonists action.

 

2. Have other players or you as GM suggest some sort of play book for actions and power use.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I'm another person who does not buy into the inherent slowness of the Hero system.

 

I think that part of the problem is in builds. If the GM ensures that all the characters are 'balanced' then there is little chance of fight-ending punches being thrown and landed during a combat. As damage tends to be dished out using large numbers of dice you do not tend to get damage results much beyond the mean - thus quite predictable damage and thus longer combats.

 

The GM can reduce the length of combats by ensuring that defences are low in comparison to damge capabilities. This means that you will get a lot of playing about as the combatants seek the first decisive blow of the contest - but one or two hits will end it.

 

Or you can use some system of increasing the damage due to better dice rolling - either through a system of hit locations or by adding damage for better rolls....that way the variation in damage plays off 3D6 rather than 12D6.

 

 

Doc

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Simply packing a pocket calculator can help. A lot of it is the math, which, while not complicated, is very prevalent and not everybody can do math in their heads very well.

 

For example, when you roll damage dice, gather them in 10s, so you can just count 10,20,30, then the 'extras' that couldn't gather into 10s, then use your calculator to subtract your defense, then that number from your stun, instead of using pencil in the margins.

 

I don't think that the to-hit formula is at fault, because I can simply go 'OCV 8, DCV 6, up 2, 13 or less' in a single breath. I recommend not playing hidden DCV tricks, though ... i've found that to be a bigger trouble than it's worth, particularly when most savvy Champions players can figure out someone's DCV within a point or two simply based off their initiative and thus, DEX.

 

I think the biggest slowdown in most games is lack of player and/or GM familiarity. If you have to ask 'what do I roll', 'how does this work', 'do I count STUN or BODY' whenever you throw an attack, that slows everything down.

 

The second biggest slowdown is TACTICS. In my experience, fights tend to drag when PCs don't act in unison, instead breaking down into individual duels. The HERO System has a lot of ways to boost your damage output without having to spend more points ... things like Rapid Fire, Haymaker, Move-Throughs -- but all of them have inherent drawbacks. If the PCs work as a team -- and realize that these maneuvers exist, pertaining to my previous paragraph -- fights end much more quickly because the PCs are making better use of their resources.

[Vondy]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

We use a narrow range of standardized speed scores*.

I run the speed chart by rote, but have a pregen list handy for reference.

I allow ten seconds to make a decision.

We use a dice rolling program.

Players who can't do CV calculations on the fly have a chart.

 

*Notable Normals: 3, Most Named Characters: 4, Combat Pros 5, Power Based 6-7.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I find much of the slowdown is players (and GM's) taking extended periods of time to analyze every possible alernative in an effort to optimize their action. Try restricting this. For example:

 

- You have 5 seconds to declare your action. If you don't devcide in that five seconds (which is more time than your entire phase occupies in game time!), your character hesitates (delays his phase) and the next person in action order gets to move.

 

- Absolutely no counting of hexes permitted. You don't get to ocunt out the hexes to determine how close you can get with a half move, or what yur range penalties will be. You simply announce "I will move closer to Bulldozer, and fire my EB at him when I'm within 4" or at the end of my half move", or "I will rush Bulldozer - if I can, I'll close and punch him, otherwise I'll do a move through". Not count count count; determine who I can get to in a half move; pick one to attack".

 

This is the main thing I've seen slow down combat.

 

I don't find the system itself inherently slow - I find that players, especially martial artists, can get overwhelmed by the number of choices. Especially coming from D20 where most combat falls into "Attack Roll, Damage Roll, Next!" (most, not all, before anyone starts on a tangent).

 

Another thing that infuriates me I figure stuff out when it's not my phase. I count hexes, I add OCV/DCV modifiers from maneuvers, basically while everyone else is moving figures, rolling and counting dice, I'm planning my next action. So when the GM turns to me my statement is fast and to the point.

 

Though, sometimes I need to stop and ask a question, so I try and plan two actions based on the answer "Wait, which agent had the glue gun again? OK, thanks I move ...."

 

When I run Cyberpunk I count to 15. You don't start moving I move on.

[Spence]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I am running a new Champs game and frankly this hasn't been a problem. The players just PLAY. They never count hexes till after decif=ding the action, it has just never occurred to them to stall and try to milk time while computing the best possible factor for everything. They just say what they are trying to do and we go. Since it is four color supers I am not using too many of the options. So even if the player doesn't know the rules 100%, the combats are still fast and furious.

 

So far lack of coordination and plain old mistakes have made the battles fun, with the added bonus for the GM of the villains getting away clean

 

The two plot lines I have in place right now have the Heroes trying to figure out what GRAB is up to and a not too flattering encounter with my sup'd up version of Penny Dreadful. She is morphing into the Joker of my world and has up to this point successfully out maneuvered the Heroes

 

All in all it is shaping up as a good game. The only thing it lacks is any bogging down. The sessions have all been fast and furious

[Lord Liaden]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I've found that several of the suggestions from the sidebar, "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat," in the Fifth Edition rulebook work quite well. My personal favorite is for the GM (and the players, if everyone trusts each other) to roll a series of random "To Hit" and Damage totals for all the characters to be involved in combat in a particular game session, and note them on a list. When the time comes for a character to make an attack, just use each successive prerolled result and cross it off the list.

[SAVeira]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I have never find HERO combat to be slow. In fact, it is one of the fastest of all the RPGs, I have played.

[Silbeg]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I also have to agree that HERO combat is any slower than any other system. Last night, in my Champions game (which is currently taking place in a parallel "fantasy" dimension) the players got in three battles in a 4 hour period. There were 5 superheroes, and the fights were against:

 

3 "wee" dragons

 

a mix of about 40 zombies and skeletons

 

2 greater demons.

 

These fights really didn't take that long, and each was over in less than 2 turns. What slowed events down the most was:

 

1) Table talk

2) Too much time taken to decide what action to take.

3) Looking up rules

 

#1 may or may not be something you want to do anything about (after all, RPGs are social events!)

 

#2 may be something that we can deal with, but usually this becomes draconian in enforcement.

 

#3 is best eliminated in the following manner:

• GM makes a snap ruling, notes decision
  
• Another player looks up the rules references, notifies GM when combat is complete
  
• Out of game (or at least out of combat) the GM reviews the rules, and makes a final ruling, noting the decision.

[Silbeg]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Oh, from experience, another thing to think about. High defenses, especially Damage Reduction will make combats take longer.

[Balabanto]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Because people learn the chargen rules and not the combat rules. Combat in Hero System for my players takes no longer than a combat in D+D. That's 1.5 hours for anything other than a megabattle.

 

The other problem is that when your players don't know the rules, they look up crap every five seconds. Tell them to stop. Make a ruling and don't look up stuff DURING the session. EVER.

 

Guarantee your combat time goes down.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

 

The other problem is that when your players don't know the rules, they look up crap every five seconds.

 

One of the beauties of our group - aside from someone who is just learning the system, no one in the group has less than 13 years experience with HERO (and three of them have been playing since first edition).

 

That speeds things up really well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

One thing we have done, and this has worked better with small gorups than large, is not use combat maps.

 

Just describe events and wing it. At best we put down some thing to show relative positions (who is on which side of the battle map, numbers still standing). But not much more than that.

 

One group involved three physical players and one joining by conference phone. Combat still went pretty quick. Any slow down occurred when the speaker phone was overloaded with noise and we had to repeat ourselves.

[casualplayer]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

HERO slow? Have you seen the Attack of Opportunity rules of d20?!

 

For my sake, whenever I GM I track all the STUN and BODY (mostly so I can use adjectives to describe the combat, not crunchy numbers) and I also monitor the SPD Chart without letting my players know what segment it is. I point and say "It's your turn to act" and if I don't get a timely response that's considered Holding an Action.

 

Once you've reached a certain level of familiarity with the system you should institute a "No Reference" rule, which means no cracking open any rulebook during the game. Recurring rules referencing is certain death for any game regardless of system.

 

Players are responsible for knowing where their Levels are allocated and what their CVs are currently set at. If a Level gets neglected or forgotten, well the adversaries appreciate the players' confidence and handicapping.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

The screen from the Resource Kit helps with the rules referencing. Most everything you need is right there.

[NestorDRod]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Hmm... OK, I'll bite. My admittedly personal experience in what makes Hero combat seem so slow:

 

1) CV calculations: There always seems to be at least one guy in the group who just has to work out every single modifier that could apply to the roll. So, the rest of the group sits idly by while the number-crunchers go at it. This includes hex-counting, which I noticed someone mentioned. My attitude (as a player) is to look at the GM and simply ask, "Did it succeed or not?", or (as a GM) to come up with a number partly based on how cool the maneuver is and tell the player to go ahead and roll it. This latter method has been known to bring the number-crunchers to tears of rage.

 

2) Power or skill rulings: Someone wants to do something and the page-turning starts to figure out if the power/skill used can actually do it. My attitude is: if the character's paid 60 points for a VPP and the effect of the attack fits the effect of the Pool, why do we need to calculate the specific power that created the effect? If someone's worked it out beforehand, great. Otherwise, let's just assume he has what he needs and move on. The effect trumps the rules every time.

 

3) Edition changes: Even, or I should say especially, experienced players get caught by this one. Rules changes in the new editions inevitably spark combat-delaying discussions about what a power or skill can now do or not do. See 2 above.

 

Solving these issues is not an easy task, since some players believe that adherence to the rules is necessary for their enjoyment of the game. Folks have already provided many useful tips on how to pre-generate values and calculations to speed up the process.

 

In the end, though, it comes down to what is more important to you and the group: keeping the story and excitement going, or following the dictates of the rulebook.

 

Warning: The opinions expressed above are strictly those of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the establishment. Thank you.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I propose a theory. My theory is that it isn't that combat in Hero is too slow but combat in other systems is too quick. Most combat systems cut out the little nuances that make combat grand. I mean, sure there are a lot of rules and it takes forever, but I have actually cut the strap to a saddle and made an acrobatics role to "swing" under the horse and kick the rider off his steed, sending him toppling to the ground. You can't do stuff like that and make it "fast".

[Doc Democracy]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

With reference to the counting thing, it does serve to focus the minds of players.

 

When running a small club for teenagers I used to use a five finger count down. When the fingers run out so did their time.

 

One night a combat with my friends was going very slowly due to dithering and changing minds. Without telling them what I was doing I began holding up my hand and slowly closing it into a fist. Everyone got their actions in before the fingers disappeared.

 

Obviously it taps into some well of childhood learning and discipline!

 

 

Doc

[CourtFool]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

Can we get a sticky for this urban legend?

 

I have not found Hero system combat any slower than most of the other games I have played. Stop counting every single point of BODY, END and STUN. Start using mook rules. The GM and players should control pace, not the mechanics.

[NestorDRod]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I propose a theory. My theory is that it isn't that combat in Hero is too slow but combat in other systems is too quick. Most combat systems cut out the little nuances that make combat grand. I mean' date=' sure there are a lot of rules and it takes forever, but I have actually cut the strap to a saddle and made an acrobatics role to "swing" under the horse and kick the rider off his steed, sending him toppling to the ground. You can't do stuff like that and make it "fast".[/quote']

 

I'm not sure if your example really supports your point.

 

I've played in other systems where complex actions like that were indeed part and parcel of the combat. The difference is in the level of granularity the GM applies in determining the outcome, whether in Hero or another game.

 

If the GM says, "OK, roll your skill with a -2 modifier and, if you succeed, roll your attack", fine. If the GM starts going through the whole list of applicable modifiers, followed by another player's argument that the action needs to be broken down into two turns because it constitutes two "attacks", bla bla bla, then you see combat screech to a grinding halt.

 

I guess my point is that it's not the system per se, it's how the GM and the players to choose to implement it.

 

Hero has gotten the reputation as a "slow" system most likely due to a few bad incidents. Unfortunately, for every example one can show of a combat running smoothly, an opposite example is available. Blaming the system alone, though, is only part of the issue.

 

Bottom line, what I humbly suggest is that if speeding up combat is a goal, lessening one's compulsive obsession with rule mechanics is a way to get closer to it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: WHY is combat so slow and what have you done about it?

 

I'm not sure if your example really supports your point.

 

I've played in other systems where complex actions like that were indeed part and parcel of the combat. The difference is in the level of granularity the GM applies in determining the outcome, whether in Hero or another game.

 

If the GM says, "OK, roll your skill with a -2 modifier and, if you succeed, roll your attack", fine. If the GM starts going through the whole list of applicable modifiers, followed by another player's argument that the action needs to be broken down into two turns because it constitutes two "attacks", bla bla bla, then you see combat screech to a grinding halt.

 

I guess my point is that it's not the system per se, it's how the GM and the players to choose to implement it.

 

Hero has gotten the reputation as a "slow" system most likely due to a few bad incidents. Unfortunately, for every example one can show of a combat running smoothly, an opposite example is available. Blaming the system alone, though, is only part of the issue.

 

Bottom line, what I humbly suggest is that if speeding up combat is a goal, lessening one's compulsive obsession with rule mechanics is a way to get closer to it.

 

First, rules discussions should always wait until after combat and the game session in general unless the GM is unsure and asks for input. A D&D GM might be able describe the same level of detail inherent to a system like HERO but how he does it is completely arbitrary and 1 sided. It is only 1 or 2 steps removed from the way the old Amber Diceless system worked. It's alright if you have a good GM.

 

I disagree completely with your last statement. HERO's approach demands a certain level system vocabulary knowledge not only from the GM but the players if they want to take advantage of the options and still manage to have quick combats. Players that complain about HERO combat length either don't want to bother to actually learn the system or want to munchkin the system vs. their GM. The former group is probably too lazy for HERO and the latter are going to be problematic players no matter what system is played.