Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[massey]

 

How was nuking a densely populated major city going to stop an alien invasion from a portal in the sky far above the city in any case??  The entire sequence was so that Tony could be a hero and "learn a lesson" from Captain America.  It was weak writing, even if it was exciting to watch.

 

By blowing up the machine that was keeping the portal open, and killing all the invaders that were already through.  They didn't know the machine had a force field around it, and we don't know if the force field would have stopped a nuke.  Theoretically it's a valid tactic, if it stops global Armageddon.  You don't even have to reveal to the public what happened -- just suddenly there was a nuclear explosion and then it was over.  Maybe one of those big space dragons exploded, who knows?

[Pattern Ghost]

Maybe he was Hydra.

[Lord Liaden]

Not only is it standard doctrine to disobey idiotic and immoral orders, but the orders made no sense.  Plus, he was under direct orders to not nuke Manhattan.

 

How was nuking a densely populated major city going to stop an alien invasion from a portal in the sky far above the city in any case??  The entire sequence was so that Tony could be a hero and "learn a lesson" from Captain America.  It was weak writing, even if it was exciting to watch.

 

Clarification: the scene showing the nuke-carrying jet being lifted into takeoff position, had a voice-over from a World Security Council member ordering the pilot to make the strike, stating that Fury's order had been overridden. Which I can accept the Council had the authority to do.

 

Modern nukes can have a blast radius measured in miles, more than enough to reach that portal. If that had even been the intended target -- it was being generated from the Tesseract device atop Stark Tower. I can see the logic in thinking, "destroy the Tesseract, destroy the gate." Not saying it was correct, just logical.

 

In any case, the Cold War-spawned doctrine of "Mutually Assured Destruction" kinda rewrote the definition of, "idiotic and immoral orders."

[Lord Liaden]

The short clip from Civil War shown during the 2016 MTV Movie Awards:

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2016/04/11/new-captain-america-civil-war-sneak-peek-released-during-mtv-mov/

[Christopher R Taylor]

Not saying it was correct, just logical.

The pilot would not only know nothing about the tesseract, but he would know that the aliens are coming from a hole in space in the sky, which nuking the city is not rationally going to harm.  Logical?  To nuke Manhattan?  On the hope that somehow by killing 10 million people this would maybe stop an alien invasion from the sky?  Not even close.

 

The hydra one is a more likely possibility, although blowing up NYC isn't exactly their style (especially since a lot of their leadership was, you know, in Manhattan).

[Greywind]

Got much experience with military and chains of command?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Got much experience with military and chains of command?

Personally?  No.  But I'm aware that nearly every military on earth not just allows, but requires soldiers to refuse orders that are crazy or evil, like nuking Manhattan.

[zslane]

I eagerly await an accurate portrayal of military operational conduct in any comic book movie. It is about as likely as an accurate portrayal of police procedures or court room protocol. I'm not holding my breath though...

[Starlord]

Served 10 years, 7 countries, combat veteran with 6 months in Iraq.  I generally have a less critical eye than others about cinema, but nothing pulls me out of a movie/tv show easier than improper military portrayals.  Some common screwups are:

 

Cover worn indoors

No cover outdoors

hair over the ears or 5-oclock shadow

LEFT-HANDED SALUTES

Saluting indoors

 

To civilians these mean nothing, but to they scream "WRONG" to a military eye.

[Vondy]

Personally?  No.  But I'm aware that nearly every military on earth not just allows, but requires soldiers to refuse orders that are crazy or evil, like nuking Manhattan.

 

While the law requires that, acts of conscience contrary to orders will, in most cases, be career stalling if not court-martial launching. Further, you are insisting on an narrow and inflexible interpretation of events that others who viewed the movie clearly don't share. That the pilot didn't know about the tessaract doesn't alter the fact that the shot-callers were taking it into account.

 

A small tac-nuke would destroy a square kilometer of Manhattan, which is less area than the Avengers and Aliens had already trashed. As a result, it might well have been not only lawful under the rules of war, but arguably a road to fewer deaths in the final balance sheet. Destroy a kilometer of New York to end an alien invasion and turn the tide in a battle that was already taking down large buildings and killing thousands? A chunk of Manhattan vs. Planet Earth?

 

There are those who would consider not giving or following that order immoral. Its quite likely no one would give a damn about the pilot's man-in-a-foxhole moral quandaries - and prosecute him right into Leavenworth. Could it have been a non-nuke? Sure. But one that would take down Stark Tower would require a bomber and take longer to deploy. I'm not saying your are wrong, per se, but I am saying you don't have an interpretive monopoly on what to take away from that sequence.

 

And, in the end, we're arguing whether its realistic when Thor is fricking using his hammer like a helicopter blade?

[massey]

While the law requires that, acts of conscience contrary to orders will, in most cases, be career stalling if not court-martial launching. Further, you are insisting on an narrow and inflexible interpretation of events that others who viewed the movie clearly don't share. That the pilot didn't know about the tessaract doesn't alter the fact that the shot-callers were taking it into account.

 

A small tac-nuke would destroy a square kilometer of Manhattan, which is less area than the Avengers and Aliens had already trashed. As a result, it might well have been not only lawful under the rules of war, but arguably a road to fewer deaths in the final balance sheet. Destroy a kilometer of New York to end an alien invasion and turn the tide in a battle that was already taking down large buildings and killing thousands? A chunk of Manhattan vs. Planet Earth?

 

There are those who would consider not giving or following that order immoral. Its quite likely no one would give a damn about the pilot's man-in-a-foxhole moral quandaries - and prosecute him right into Leavenworth. Could it have been a non-nuke? Sure. But one that would take down Stark Tower would require a bomber and take longer to deploy. I'm not saying your are wrong, per se, but I am saying you don't have an interpretive monopoly on what to take away from that sequence.

 

And, in the end, we're arguing whether its realistic when Thor is fricking using his hammer like a helicopter blade?

 

Well, the military, even a comic book military like SHIELD, would be expected to perform somewhat similarly to a regular military.  Thor being a magic god alien obviously operates a little differently.  I still expect taxi cabs to be the same as in the real world, after all.

 

I think it's perfectly plausible that the Shadow Leader Council People, or whatever they're called, who have been following this Tesseract business the entire time, and know basically exactly what is going on, might order taking out half of Midtown if they think this is something that is going to end the Earth.  And we don't know exactly what they told that pilot, but "alien space dragons are coming through a portal at Stark Tower, Earth's only hope is that you close the portal with that nuke you're carrying" wouldn't be all that far off.

[Old Man]

Personally?  No.  But I'm aware that nearly every military on earth not just allows, but requires soldiers to refuse orders that are crazy or evil, like nuking Manhattan.

 

Why is that crazy or evil?  That's where Wall Street is, isn't it?

[Lord Liaden]

 

A small tac-nuke would destroy a square kilometer of Manhattan, which is less area than the Avengers and Aliens had already trashed. As a result, it might well have been not only lawful under the rules of war, but arguably a road to fewer deaths in the final balance sheet. Destroy a kilometer of New York to end an alien invasion and turn the tide in a battle that was already taking down large buildings and killing thousands? A chunk of Manhattan vs. Planet Earth?

 

 

Let's not forget that the only use of nuclear weapons in wartime in the real world, was in no small part based on a similar assessment of the balance of lives lost in the short time, versus lives saved in the long term.

[Vondy]

Let's not forget that the only use of nuclear weapons in wartime in the real world, was in no small part based on a similar assessment of the balance of lives lost in the short time, versus lives saved in the long term.

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Vondy]

Why is that crazy or evil?  That's where Wall Street is, isn't it?

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[zslane]

Supergirl is facing the same dilemma on her show right now. Her counter-solution to dropping a kryptonite bomb on National City is to broadcast messages of hope to the enthralled population instead. And the general in charge of the situation is uncharacteristically open to this gambit. Realism will always be sacrificed at the alter of contrived drama.

[Ranxerox]

I don't think General Lane has been updated on her plan.  They talked to him about the kryptonite bomb, but did they let him know that they had chose to try a different route instead?

[Starlord]

Yeah, like I said a couple eps. in, WAY too much kryptonite in that universe for me...how is Superman still alive? 

[BoloOfEarth]

Yeah, like I said a couple eps. in, WAY too much kryptonite in that universe for me...how is Superman still alive? 

 

He spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder kryptonite.

[Bazza]

I've always assumed they'd kill Steve Rogers, which is sad because he is by far my favorite MCU character.  He's been handled almost flawlessly so far.  My hope is that Bucky will die, thus causing Steve to quit and lose faith and is only drawn back only by the danger of Thanos.

 

Fair enough. My favs are Tony and Thor. 

[Bazza]

The pilot would not only know nothing about the tesseract...

 

Which is why he is a pilot and not on the World Security Council with legal authority to safeguard Earth.

 

To say the pilot knows anything else but given an directive by a Councilman on the World Security Council is an assumption. We don't know if the pilot knows about the Tesseract, or the hole in space above Manhattan, and there is an argument to be made that he doesn't -- as Fury gives out information on a need-to-know basis. Thus the moral issue is very clear in following the directive from the World Security Council which oversees SHIELD. 

 

Any connection to Hydra is irrelevant as the character that Powers Boothe plays in The Avengers is unnamed (IMDB credits him and 3 others as "World Security Council"). He was given a name, and backstory when he crossed over to Agents of Shield. 

[Bazza]

Civil War in 2 weeks. Too long to wait.

[Pattern Ghost]

Any connection to Hydra is irrelevant as the character that Powers Boothe plays in The Avengers is unnamed (IMDB credits him and 3 others as "World Security Council"). He was given a name, and backstory when he crossed over to Agents of Shield. 

 

Or they had a plan for the character all along and didn't name him in the credits to avoid spoilering a later reveal. They do plan ahead. No way of knowing. Unless you've read an interview or something about it?

[Bazza]

Or they had a plan for the character all along and didn't name him in the credits to avoid spoilering a later reveal. They do plan ahead. No way of knowing. Unless you've read an interview or something about it?

yes I have, but would need to research to confirm.

[Pattern Ghost]

No need.