Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Nolgroth]

In this case, disappointment is probably also relative to one's ability to imagine a far more interesting alternative to what we got.

Oh you are probably correct. I blame grimdark for its overarching influence on modern media. With a little more adventure, Iron Fist would have been more fun.

 

I just didn't feel that it was as bad as the Internet made it out to be.

[zslane]

Oh you are probably correct. I blame grimdark for its overarching influence on modern media. With a little more adventure, Iron Fist would have been more fun.

 

I just didn't feel that it was as bad as the Internet made it out to be.

 

I kind of agree with you there. However, by analogy, if what I'm hungering and hoping for is a fantastic steak, I'm not going to be happy if I'm served a lukewarm pasta dish in which its only virtue is that it's "not quite as bad" as an entire Internet of haters say it is.

[Lord Liaden]

I suspect Iron Fist suffered by the public and critical reception to the series for Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage, which overall was strongly positive. A followup to those faced high expectations, hence a so-so product is going to look that much worse in comparison.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The writers of Iron Fist wanted to do a certain kind of story and they did it even if it didn't make a whole lot of sense for the character or setting.  And they went cheap on the martial arts, which should have been most of their budget.

[Nolgroth]

The writers of Iron Fist wanted to do a certain kind of story and they did it even if it didn't make a whole lot of sense for the character or setting.  And they went cheap on the martial arts, which should have been most of their budget.

 

Yeah, they wanted it dark. I would say that the story was the second darkest out of the four, with Jessica Jones being the darkest in tone. That was really a mistake. If I can point out one area where I would have done something different, I would have made the combats larger than life, like a Saturday Morning Kung-Fu theater movie but with proper lip syncing. Bruce Lee had some pretty dark themes in his movies, but you tended to just accept those as the foundation for which he was about to manhandle 50 mooks and a couple of karate masters. Which leads to....

 

The martial arts should have been better.  I seem to recall an article or tweet or something where the actor complained about being given minimal rehearsal for many (all?) of his martial arts choreography. Now I don't know if that is true or not, but I can believe it based on the "roughness" by which he maneuvered. I don't necessarily believe that he should have moved with unerring grace, but they could have played up the fact that he just trained all Shaolin style for the past number of years. If nothing else, play up his self-stated ability to focus and fight better the more he was getting beat down.

 

As far as the overall story, I enjoyed it. I still think the best character, in terms of classical character growth cycle, was Ward. He was a much more interesting character than Danny, which is part of the problem. Danny should have been the spotlight character, driven by tragedy but still remaining hopeful. Instead, he acted like a sulky teenager with entitlement issues. I never got the feeling that he was being the hero because he thought out the problems beforehand and weighed their moral implication. I rather got the idea that he was still operating under some naive, fantasy version of morality that he gleaned from popular culture. All-in-all, it made Danny look less like the Iron Fist and more like the Iron Fist in-training. Now that the creative staff got that out of the way, we need to see a real season of Iron Fist.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think it was more than dark, it was that they wanted a story of a man who learns to control his emotions and deal with tragedy in his life.  Its not a bad idea for a story, it just makes zero sense for someone raised and trained in marital arts for the majority of his life, learning self discipline and to control himself.

 

All-in-all, it made Danny look less like the Iron Fist and more like the Iron Fist in-training.

 

Exactly.  That and the subpar martial arts made him seem like he was making all that Iron Fist stuff up.  Someone with his background would not have been that story and that kind of fighter.  Either that or the Kun Lun guys just suck.  Which is a mistake because without that glowy fist thing he's kind of like Daredevil's kid sidekick.

[bigdamnhero]

I understood their desire to make Danny more of a work-in-progress. Seeing someone develop into a true hero is generally more interesting - especially to non-comics fans - than a hero who's already fully formed, and all the Netflix-MCU shows have explored that to some degree. I just thought it was really poorly handled. The whole thing felt like they were writing the scripts the night before filming, especially compared to how tightly-written the previous shows have been.

[Lord Liaden]

To be fair, the first few issues of Iron Fist's own comic (before Chris Claremont took over writing), he was arrogant, he was very much a fish out of water, he had a lot of learning and growing up to do. But he was also one of the greatest martial artists in the world, who could take down a gang of street thugs without breaking a sweat.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Seeing someone develop into a true hero is generally more interesting - especially to non-comics fans - than a hero who's already fully formed

 

 

I agree and yet the direction they took made him seem not so much a well trained expert but kind of a hapless loser.  A better approach would have been:

 

he was arrogant, he was very much a fish out of water, he had a lot of learning and growing up to do. But he was also one of the greatest martial artists in the world

 

 

Not so much a fish out of water (the easy path) but to make him so capable and full of himself he had to learn to deal with people and handle others better.  That works better for someone who is learning to be a hero rather than learning to use his abilities as if he's never trained before and is a childish whining idiot.  But I get the impression from most writers in Hollywood and elsewhere that they don't really comprehend what a hero is, who good guys are, and what makes that work at all.

[Nolgroth]

Defenders was good. It started out kind of disjointed, almost like gaming sessions where the GM has to switch focus between each player's story every few minutes. As a result it felt like a slow start. It quickly warmed up and got engaging pretty fast. I won't spoil anything but dramatic things happened. My only complaint is that it was over too fast (only 8 episodes). They told the story they were telling and it took eight episodes, but for once I wanted one or two more. 

[zslane]

I understood their desire to make Danny more of a work-in-progress. Seeing someone develop into a true hero is generally more interesting - especially to non-comics fans - than a hero who's already fully formed, and all the Netflix-MCU shows have explored that to some degree. I just thought it was really poorly handled. The whole thing felt like they were writing the scripts the night before filming, especially compared to how tightly-written the previous shows have been.

 

 Agreed.

 

Danny's story of how he earned the title of "Immortal Iron Fist" should have been what the first 2/3rds of the first season was all about. It should have taken place entirely in Kun Lun, where we got to see the culture and customs there. It would have been an opportunity for Iron Fist to establish its own unique feel as a series, steeped in Eastern mysticism and high-flying martial arts action. It should have been a cross between Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Into the Badlands (i.e., lots of fantasy elements, but with modern fighting choreography instead of traditional wushu wirework). It could have been revealed that Madam Gao had been captured and imprisoned there, and that her escape puts Danny in pursuit of her, and that's how he ends up in NYC. Then the third act of the season would be Danny discovering how The Hand has infiltrated NYC and the threat they represent.

 

But most importantly, while Danny may new to the superhero game, and be a fish out of water in terms of fitting into NYC, especially after 15 years of isolation and indoctrination into a way of life utterly foreign to modern Americans, there's no excuse for him not demonstrating the degree of fighting prowess necessary to defeat Shou Lao the Undying. And I just don't buy that he would still be so utterly torn up emotionally and psychologically after having 15 years to get his s**t together under the tutelage and training of Kun Lun's masters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Someone else pointed this out to me, and it makes sense.

 

Iron Fist had to be kind of a hot head explosive type.  Luke Cage was that in their relationship with Heroes for Hire (which I still think is a damn good idea), but they turned Luke into a zen-like centered calm man who rarely shows any anger.  So if Iron Fist was the same way, it wouldn't have played off each other well even when they weren't going to be a combo.  Just bad planning all around.

[zslane]

Yeah, reversing those personality traits was boneheaded.

[Pattern Ghost]

Probably trying to dodge the Angry Black Man stereotype for Cage. Plus, Coulter plays calm and collected very well.

[zslane]

It's not necessarily a stereotype. Depending on where they live, they have a lot to be angry about (for real). Marvel is trying to play the political correctness game and losing.

[Pattern Ghost]

Actually, I think Luke is angry, just controls it. Either way, it does kind of flip the dynamic between him and Danny awkwardly.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, Marvel Netflix weren't going to match those characters before the Defenders team-up. If they wanted an angry hothead to play against, they already have Jessica Jones.

[Old Man]

Yeah, for Luke specifically, it seems as though his powers were tangentially linked to his anger level.  Then again that does seem like it would just make him a miniHulk. 

 

IMO Iron Fist should have been a lot like the old Kung Fu series--a young man with a really weird upbringing trying to apply his academic wisdom and idealism to real life.  If you think about it, he'd be a West Coast hippie who happens to know kung fu, in a decidedly hippie-unfriendly environment.

[Pattern Ghost]

I still haven't seen it, but that sounds like a better idea for handling him than what I've heard of the series.

[Bazza]

Why couldn't Iron Fist (still haven't seen) be more like a Bruce Lee film (eg The Big Boss) but as a serial. I also like Old Man's idea above of a West Coast hippie.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Daredevil even stole Iron Fist's mask style for most of DD's first season.  And they seem determined to avoid anything remotely wild or supernatural, so they couldn't do any wild martial arts stuff like balancing on a leaf or running on the walls.  In the end, Iron Fist gets nothing but a glowy hand.

[Lord Liaden]

You know, that's a really good point. Netflix Daredevil is about as highly-trained as you can get, but even he's depicted as more of a brawler than the graceful acrobatic fighter we know from comics. This corner of the MCU may have painted itself into a corner as far as the level of superhero martial arts they can depict. Really, the only MCU non-powered fighter whose style reflects their comics source is Black Widow.

[DasBroot]

Well, their budget isn't astronomical - it's probably easier to train people to look like they're doing a decent job in a fight than to wire-fu or CGI them into doing things that are only really possible for 'normal' humans in comic book: Brawler who does Parkour will have to do.

 

I don't mind the minimalist approach to their super hero shows as long as the writing and acting is ok - to me it just keeps them closer to 'street level'.

 

(It's why I appreciated Purple Man as Jessica Jones' adversary - not only is it a classical mental villain vs physical hero but it's CHEAP.  No fancy special effects on the mind controls and with mostly normal humans for the fight scenes Jessica didn't need to display super strength at comic levels - less lifting cars over your head and throwing them, more seeing tires squeal as the car fails to move.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do respect the budget idea and the need to keep things as low cost as possible but... they're hurting themselves in terms of options and characterization.  Plus, it feels less like a comic book world than a bad part of a city with some of those costume wearing vigilantes.  Two meh martial artists and two strong people doesn't exactly stand out in terms of an interesting cast.

[Old Man]

 

You're welcome.