Agent X Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 That is some selective awareness you have going on there: According to which witnesses? Could it be that mythical juror number 40 who was never at the scene and a racist little monster? What about the two witness caught on camera at the same time Brown was murder saying his hands were up? As to the physical evidence supporting the cop, no it doesn't. The physical evidence says only that Brown most most certainly at distance when the next several shots were fired: including the killing shot and the shots that followed it. Most everything else is simply spin. La Rose. No selective awareness whatsoever. I was very specific and I included the appropriate qualifiers. It's not what you want to hear but I don't care. Anybody with any objectivity can recognize that there was not enough evidence to support any definitive conclusion against the officer. It doesn't matter how much YOU are deeply affected by police brutality and YOU want to get rid of police brutality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 [mod hat]Folks, I am NOT attempting to single anyone out, but please, remember to keep it as friendly as you can, make your cases without belittling each other, and if you really feel like you're going in circles, agree to disagree. No line has, as far as I can tell, been crossed yet, so this is intended as more of a precautionary note rather than any reprimand.[/mod hat] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 So the NYPD in an act of defiance towards the Mayor have stopped doing their job. Why exactly are we paying these people again? This is a unique situation where I actually genuinely agree with Cenk. La Rose. Shadow Hawk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Is that Krypto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 So the NYPD in an act of defiance towards the Mayor have stopped doing their job. Why exactly are we paying these people again? This is a unique situation where I actually genuinely agree with Cenk. La Rose. If the police stop doing their job, can we have them fired through some sort of vote? It *is* our tax money going to pay them, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 If the police stop doing their job, can we have them fired through some sort of vote? It *is* our tax money going to pay them, after all. Obviously you don't understand, Ragitsu. Police are the most sacrosanct people in this world. Conservatives are in bed with most any military-esc arm of the government and Liberals can't ever turn on their unions. Absolutely nothing negative will happen to these people for not doing their job - just like nothing happens to them when they 'do' their job. The lot of them ought to be receiving pink slips and we need to be getting in new blood. Preferably some people who know better than shoot first and never ask questions. La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 On the upshot, though, since they are getting involved less in minor offenses, the likihood of one of them going off the hook (are they ever on it these days?) and murdering some innocent person is down. So, there is that. ^^ ♪ Always look on the bright side of life. ♪ La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Obviously you don't understand, Ragitsu. Police are the most sacrosanct people in this world. Conservatives are in bed with most any military-esc arm of the government and Liberals can't ever turn on their unions. Absolutely nothing negative will happen to these people for not doing their job - just like nothing happens to them when they 'do' their job. The lot of them ought to be receiving pink slips and we need to be getting in new blood. Preferably some people who know better than shoot first and never ask questions. La Rose. It is a bit sickening and lopsided when an employee at a fast food restaurant can be fired for serving an incorrect order, yet a clear-cut civil servant can retain their job when a state sanctioned in-the-streets execution is morally questionable at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 [mod hat]Folks, I am NOT attempting to single anyone out, but please, remember to keep it as friendly as you can, make your cases without belittling each other, and if you really feel like you're going in circles, agree to disagree. No line has, as far as I can tell, been crossed yet, so this is intended as more of a precautionary note rather than any reprimand.[/mod hat] It's become redundant. So, I'm pretty sure nothing is going to go down - at least involving me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 From Vice News: The Ezell Ford Autopsy report has been released. And low and behold he was shot in the arm, the side and in the back at close range by uniformed officers. My guess is that the officers will get a free meal and promotion for their 'hard work'. Utah Police Fatally shoot a US Purple heart recipient who they claim was holding a shotgun. And what a coinkidink his body cam was 'off' the whole time. Body cams should be on at all times - Medical calls, disturbance calls, traffic citations, taking a piss. There should not be a single world unheard or bowel movement un-documented from the moment a cops clocks in to the moment he clocks out. And if there ever is, that person should be immediately put on probation until it can be determined that they did not do it to save their own arse. If it can't, fire them. Police spokesman insults Micheal Brown memorial and has been suspended. I am almost of the mind to say that is enough but a good part of me wants to see this man fired before the new years starts. La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roter Baron Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 @ The "Young Turks"-clip: First, yes - police who is not investigating crimes, that is not acceptable. But am I the only one who is reminded of "Sesame Street" when watching the clip: The guy and the gal keep repeating their argument over and over and over and then some more times AGAIN: "The cops are not doing their jobs! They are not doing their jobs! The cannot do their jobs not! I am outraged at theim not doing their jobs and they should be fired! They should be fired because they don't do their jobs! Did I mention that I am mad because the cops don't do their jobs? Because they don''t!" What is this show? Are the people who watch the show really mentally retarded or have the attention span of a gnat that the "hosts" (journalist they can't be!) have to repeat everything at least twice in each sentence and then the other has to say it again - for 6 minutes!?! A pain to watch (I got the fisrt 4 minutes then I had to close the video). But now I really know what the meaning of the word "redundant" is ... It seems to be a new style 薔薇語 and Pattern Ghost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 I don't blame you. Cenk and them really do become a repetitive and obnoxious fairly quickly. And that episode was them near their worst (not actually their worst but near it). La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Is that Krypto? Yep. With Christmas over, Santa Grimm didn't make as much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 So the NYPD in an act of defiance towards the Mayor have stopped doing their job. Why exactly are we paying these people again? This is a unique situation where I actually genuinely agree with Cenk. La Rose. Allow me to take a slightly differing approach here. i) Yes, police do bad things. As someone who remembers being a self-righteous teaching assistant stumbling into trouble due to unconcsious insecurity and a general try-too-hard approach, I ....find it hard to judge. Where is the on-the-job supervision, the practical training, the moderating influence of experience? If absent, I've been in that place. (From the other side, I face junior employees letting their egos and prejudices get in the way of good customer service all the time. It's something that takes constant correction, as hard to learn as letting the ego go in the first place.) So, that bit of true confessions left aside, let me acknowledge another set of unfortunate problems: unions are full of themselves; and union activits are often the self-selected jerkiest jerks in the shop. And you what the historical effect of all those obnoxious unions getting in society's face has been? Good wages, good incomes, a middle class society, broad-based home ownerrship, a solid retail sector, low-cost health insurance, good schools. All the stuff we've been losing little by little over the last 30 years or so. Rookie NYPD salary, 2014, including non-monetary benefits: $44,744/year; Average studio apartment rent in Harlem, 2014: $1500--$2500. You do the math. So, in sum: I find the NY city police union obnoxious and offensive. I also support their work-to-rule. Roter Baron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 The only jobs they seem to NOT be doing is levying the most regressive system of taxation possible. They've stopped issuing tickets and summonses. They are still arresting for cause, which is generally what I thought they were for in the first place. "To protect and serve and ticket and fine and stop and frisk" has made a lot of decent law abiding people hate the idea of interacting with the cops. If they limit themselves to policing criminal behavior that would be fantastic. Lucius 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 While I would generally agree with you that we police a lot of minor issues we probably shouldn't, doing things like issuing summons isn't one of those things. And the fact the cops are using the tragic death of two of their officers as justification for this is seriously disrespectful. They want more money, plain and simple. They don't care about their lost comrades, they don't care about the citizens they police, and they don't care about showing some basic human decency. All they care about is cashing in all this tragedy for a quick buck. It is sickening. Pink slips should be flying out the door like donuts into cop cars. La Rose. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The only jobs they seem to NOT be doing is levying the most regressive system of taxation possible. They've stopped issuing tickets and summonses. They are still arresting for cause, which is generally what I thought they were for in the first place. "To protect and serve and ticket and fine and stop and frisk" has made a lot of decent law abiding people hate the idea of interacting with the cops. If they limit themselves to policing criminal behavior that would be fantastic. Yeah, but as Instapundit often says, there's "insufficient opportunity for graft" in simply policing actual crimes. (And by "graft" I don't only mean cops on the take, but also the city/county/state enjoying the fruits of ticketing and fining as many people as possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The only jobs they seem to NOT be doing is levying the most regressive system of taxation possible. They've stopped issuing tickets and summonses. They are still arresting for cause, which is generally what I thought they were for in the first place. "To protect and serve and ticket and fine and stop and frisk" has made a lot of decent law abiding people hate the idea of interacting with the cops. If they limit themselves to policing criminal behavior that would be fantastic. Yeah, but as Instapundit often says, there's "insufficient opportunity for graft" in simply policing actual crimes. (And by "graft" I don't only mean cops on the take, but also the city/county/state enjoying the fruits of ticketing and fining as many people as possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Allow me to take a slightly differing approach here. i) Yes, police do bad things. As someone who remembers being a self-righteous teaching assistant stumbling into trouble due to unconcsious insecurity and a general try-too-hard approach, I ....find it hard to judge. Where is the on-the-job supervision, the practical training, the moderating influence of experience? If absent, I've been in that place. (From the other side, I face junior employees letting their egos and prejudices get in the way of good customer service all the time. It's something that takes constant correction, as hard to learn as letting the ego go in the first place.) So, that bit of true confessions left aside, let me acknowledge another set of unfortunate problems: unions are full of themselves; and union activits are often the self-selected jerkiest jerks in the shop. And you what the historical effect of all those obnoxious unions getting in society's face has been? Good wages, good incomes, a middle class society, broad-based home ownerrship, a solid retail sector, low-cost health insurance, good schools. All the stuff we've been losing little by little over the last 30 years or so. Rookie NYPD salary, 2014, including non-monetary benefits: $44,744/year; Average studio apartment rent in Harlem, 2014: $1500--$2500. You do the math. So, in sum: I find the NY city police union obnoxious and offensive. I also support their work-to-rule. Don't mistake what's going on here. This isn't a "unions in general" issue, but a "this particular union" issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Don't mistake what's going on here. This isn't a "unions in general" issue, but a "this particular union" issue. Why, you're right! This is not the perfect union battle in which all views line up with mine, and one side is unambiguously on the side of the angels, descended form Heaven with perfect wisdom! Therefore, I withdraw my support for job action! Now I'm off to vent my rage against all less pure of mind and righteousness than I! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 As to the particulars of the case, you are doing a very good job at ignoring WHY Brown was shot. Brown was shot because he wrestled and punched with a cop while the cop was in his car. He didn't get shot because he was big or black or because of cigarillos. Even witnesses who thought the cop was wrong agreed there was a fight at the cop car. I'm guessing you haven't looked at the case in any detail - nor read what I wrote, from this response. Brown was shot once while allegedly wrestling with the cop - I mentioned that and noted that if true (and it is supported by the autopsy evidence), that was easily justifiable. However, that isn't what killed him - he then fled the scene, apparently lightly injured. The cop pursued him some distance (about a block) and fired another 10 shots (none of them at close range, according to the autopsy), killing him. That - again, if true: it meshes with both physical site and autopsy evidence - does not seem to comply with either the local PD's rules, nor federal law on the use of lethal force, both of which require a suspect to be considered an immediate threat to the community or officer in question. A priori, then, there seems to be grounds for a trial. Now maybe there's more evidence that argued against that - but so far none has been been presented. Maybe he was charging - maybe not. Without a trial, we'll never know .... which is kind of the point, no? All the palaver about "show trials" is just you inventing things you thought I might have said, which you think might sound bad: I'm not in favour of show trials, and have never claimed to be. Nor am I "fixated" on the public order aspect of trials. But that is an important aspect of this case - as the riots so eloquently prove - and it's pure foolishness to ignore that aspect: as the riots also demonstrate. cheers, Mark Grailknight, Shadow Hawk, bigbywolfe and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Grand juror in Missouri police shooting case sues prosecutor by Reuters. This is an interesting little article and situation. La Rose. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Saw this, and I just had to shake my head at how tone deaf it seemed. What about telling them to be careful about keeping their hands empty and in full view with no sudden movements so you don't just shoot them, officer? should we tell them that? Ragitsu and 薔薇語 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Kids aren't scared they will go to jail, they are scared the will go to a morgue. La Rose. Shadow Hawk, Old Man and Ragitsu 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted January 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Saw this, and I just had to shake my head at how tone deaf it seemed. What about telling them to be careful about keeping their hands empty and in full view with no sudden movements so you don't just shoot them, officer? should we tell them that? Simply put: that is offensive. Why oh why do people insist on using all caps? It seems like the creators of this poster are shouting at us to get our attention, and then shouting goodbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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