Wonder Woman (vs.) She-Hulk

[Lord Liaden]

Well, if the point was to poll the community, the tally of the trend of opinion has been pretty consistent from the start.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

That's not how you apply the figure four leg lock

[Anaximander]

I would go with WW.  Even if their strength and toughness were equal (and they're not),  WW still has SH in pure combat and tactics training.

[Comic]

That's not how you apply the figure four leg lock

 

It is, however, how you apply fan service. 

[CaptnStrawberry]

That is one match I would pay-per-view.

[Lucius]

... you might as well not even start the thread. ....we might as well just pin it and move on.

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary at one end says the invisible plane could make a difference but the other end claims it just can't see it.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Building She-Hulk

 

How would everyone actually do it?

 

Just buy her abilities straight up with no limitations or apply OIHID to them?

I don't think OIHID applies in her case since she doesn't revert when knocked out and voluntarily changing from human form to hulked out doesn't appear to have a stop condition (like preventing Billy Batson from speaking).

 

Thoughts?

[Greywind]

Depends on at what point in her career. There was a time when Jen couldn't change out of She-Hulk even if she wanted to. There was a point when Tony Stark made it so that she couldn't change into She-Hulk if she wanted to. Generally, I'd just make her a multiform/not-quite-instant change, with only her physical attributes changing.

[Hyper-Man]

Well that goes against the general argument that She-Hulk is a more simple build than WW then.

 

Does anyone remember the first Byrne She-Hulk graphic novel.  I seem to remember it having a scene where She-Hulk was imprisoned on the SHIELD Helicarrier and she escaped from her cell simply by changing to her human form which was small enough to pass through the bars.

[Comic]

I can't pre-judge how I'd build Wonder Woman or She Hulk: multiform, OHID, or otherwise.

 

I might tend to build She Hulk as a straightforward brick, perhaps with a level of shrinking (with lock out), since I see her as the same persona with or without Hulk form, and the same access and assets in either form.

 

Wonder Woman, I think, mystically earned the Invisible Plane, Golden Lasso, Aegis Bracers and Tiara by merit, and to my thinking these answer only to Wonder Woman, not to Diana Prince as I imagine the character, so multiform is appropriate. Not every depiction of Wonder Woman goes that route. It's certainly less cumbersome to do the math and resolve the questions by multiform.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fyi there are some builds of both She-Hulk and Wonder Woman on the Great Netbook of Heroes. They are built in 4th ed.

[Comic]

So I've pilfered from Sam Bell and Mitchel Santorineos and adapted to 6E an approximation of Wonder Woman as she existed in 2000.

 

She weighs in at a respectable 1,000 CP, as a defining top-level speed brick martial artist. 

 

There may be more efficient ways to get the same build, but on the whole I hope I've done justice to Sam Bell's and Mitchell Santorineos' vision of this DC icon.

 

VAL CHA  CP Base Price END Roll Notes

 95 STR  85  10    1   [4]  28- 19d6 HTH [4]

 38 DEX  56  10    2        17-  

 43 CON  33  10    1        18-  

 23 INT  13  10    1        14- PER Roll 14-

 17 EGO   7  10    1        12-  

 30 PRE  20  10    1        15- PRE Attack: 6d6; 18-, 9d6 w/Striking Appearance 

 13 OCV  50   3    5      

 13 DCV  50   3    5      

  6 OMCV  9   3    3      

  6 DMCV  9   3    3      

  9 SPD  70   2   10            Phases: 12, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11

 30 PD   28   2    1            33(3r) PD

 30 ED   28   2    1            33(3r) ED

 28 REC  24   4    1      

 90 END  14  20   1/5      

 20 BODY 10  10    1      

 90 STUN 35  20   1/2      

Meters Move            

 60 FLY   -   -    -   [0]      X2 Ncbt; Gliding Only

 38 LEAP 17   4   0.5  [3]      up to half upward; 98m x16 w/Multipower

 12 RUN   0  12    1   [2]      X2 Noncombat; 50m w/Multipower

  4 SWIM  0   4   0.5  [1]      X2 Noncombat

558 Characteristics & Movement Total

 

  CP Powers Notes [END]

Powers Champion of Themascyra

  24 1/2 END Strength

  56 Mobility Multipower

   6 f +60m Leap (98m) x16 Ncbt -1/2 END (+1/4) 56 AP [2] 3 f 60m Flight 60 AP Gliding Only (-1) [0]

   5 f +38m Running, 1/2 END (+1/4) [2]

   9 +3 Enhanced Perception [0]

   3 3 levels Telescopic Vision [0]

  30 1/4 Physical & Energy Damage Reduction [0]

  13 +10 OCV to Block 20 AP OIF Aegis Bracers (-1/2) [0]

  40 4d6 RKA 0 END (+1/2) OAF Tiara (-1) Range Based on Throwing (-1/4) [0]

   4 10m Stretch 0 END (+1/2) OAF Golden Lasso (-1) Limited To Lasso (-1/2)

     Cannot Do Damage (-1/2) No Ncbt (-1/4) [0]

  28 6d6 Mind Control Cumulative x16 (+1.5) 0 END (+1/2) 90 AP OAF Golden Lasso (-1)

     Only vs Grabbed Opponents (-1/2) Only to Tell the Truth (-1/2) Physical Manifestation (-1/4) [0]

Talents  

   6 3 PD/3 ED Combat Luck

   9 3d6 Striking Appearance, Unearthly Beauty

Perks  

   5 Diplomatic Immunity

   5 Princess

   2 Justice League Member

   9 Vehicle: Invisible Jet

Skills  

   5 Themascyran Martial Arts Usable with Tiara/Lasso/Bracers/Sword/Staff

   5 Jab +1 / +3 Strike 25d6

   4 Punch +0 / +2 Strike +2d6 = 27d6

   5 Kick -2 / +1 Strike +4d6 = 29d6

   4 Block +2 / +2 Block, Abort

   4 Dodge - / +5 Abort

   3 M Grab -1 / -1 Grab, +10 Str

   4 Escape +0 / +0 +15 Str vs Grab

  24 6 Damage Classes Themascyran Martial Arts

   2 Animal Handler 11-

   3 Acrobatics 17-

   3 AK: Paradise Island 14-

   1 AK: Gateway City 8-

   3 Breakfall 17-

   3 Bureaucratics 15-

   3 Climbing 28-

   3 Combat Sense 14-

   3 Combat Pilot 17-

   1 High Society 8-

   3 KS: Greek Heroes, Gods & Monsters 14-

   2 Knowledge Skill: Ancient History 11-

   3 Linguist (Ancient Greek literate)

   6 Languages: English, Turkish (native)

   3 Oratory 15-

   3 Paramedics 14-

   2 Prof Skill: Military Administration 11-

   3 Riding (Horse) 17-

   3 Stealth 17-

   2 Survival 11-

   1 Tactics 8-

   3 Tracking 14-

  20 2 Overall levels

  48 6 Combat levels

 442 Total Powers, Perks & Skills

1000 Total CP

[Comic]

And again based mostly on Sam Bell, She Hulk updated to reflect the story line where Jennifer Walters trained by the Avengers to the pinnacle of human ability. To simplify, the OHID/Growth-linked/Hulk-form limitation was applied sparingly. We know Jennifer Walters doesn't have She Hulk physical characteristics in Jennifer form, but we know she can get them easily, so it isn't worth a limitation.

 

She Hulk comes in at substantially lower points, and while she has added martial arts due her intensive training with Captain America, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Beast, and the rest of the Avengers, she's unmistakeably a hard core brick.

 

 

VAL CHA   CP Base Price END Roll Notes

 80 STR  70  10    1   [4]  25- 16d6 HTH; 95 STR w/Growth

 18 DEX  16  10    2              13-

  53 CON  43  10    1              20- 58 CON w/Growth

 18 INT   8  10    1              13- PER Roll 14-

  13 EGO   3  10    1              12-

  25 PRE   15  10    1              14- PRE Attack: 5d6; 6d6 w/growth, 9d6 w/striking appearance

  8 OCV  25   3    5    

    8 DCV  25   3    5

    4 OMCV   3   3    3

    4 DMCV   3   3    3    

    5 SPD  30   2   10            Phases: 12, 3, 5, 8, 10

 13  PD  11   2    1                    33(20r) PD; 36(20r) PD w/Growth

 13  ED    11   2    1                    33(20r) ED; 36(20r) ED w/Growth

 33  REC  29   4    1      

100 END   16  20   1/5    

  20 BODY 10  10    1                    23 BODY w/Growth

 84 STUN 32  20   1/2                  90 STUN w/Growth

Meters Move             

 32 LEAP 14    4   0.5  [3]         up to half upward; 52m Accurate, 2km Megascale

 18 RUN   6  12       1    [2]        X2 Noncombat; 30m w/Growth

  4 SWIM   0  4   0.5   [1]       X2 Noncombat

370  Characteristics & Movement Total

 

 CP Powers Notes [END]

Powers Gamma Hulk

 24  1/2 END on 95 STR [4]

 15 +20m Leap Accurate (+5 AP) [1]

  6  Bare Adder Megascale (+1) on 2 km Accurate Leap [1]

 11  1d6 Aid to STR 6 AP Cumulative (+1/2) x256 (+2) 0 END (+1/2) Persistent (+1/2)

     Triggered by Annoyance or Radiation, Activating Trigger Takes No Time (+1/2)

     Reset Immediately (+1/2) 33 AP Only to Aid Self (-1), Always On (-1/2),

     Side Effect Personality Loss (-1/2)

 50 1 level Growth (+15 STR, +5 CON, +5 PRE, +3 PD/+3 ED, +3 BODY, +6 STUN, -6m KB, +1m Reach,

     8x Mass +12m Run) 0 END Persistent [0]

 48  20 rPD/20 rED Resistant Protection Linked to Growth (-1/4) [0]

 24  Full Life Support (Adaptive -0) Linked to Growth* (-1/4) [0]

    (*Immunity to Radiation not affected by this limitation)

 48  1/2 Physical & Energy Damage Reduction Linked to Growth (-1/4) [0]

 21  Regeneration 1 BODY/Turn 16 AP Can Heal Limbs (+5 AP) [0]

Talents

    3  Double Jointed

  9  3d6 Striking Appearance, Jade Giantess

Perks

    1  License to Practice Law

  2  Avengers Member

Skills

    1  Avengers Martial Arts Training, Usable Empty-Handed & With Car-sized or larger objects

  5   Defensive Strike +1 OCV +3 DCV Strike, 19d6

  4   Martial Strike +0 +2 Strike, 21d6

  5   Offensive Strike -2 +1 Strike, 23d6

  4   Block +2 +2 Block, Abort

  4   Dodge - +5 Abort

  5   Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab, 2d6 NND

  4   Martial Escape +0 +0 +15 Str vs Grab

  3   Martial Grab -1 -1 +10 Str to Hold

 12  4 Combat Skill Levels Avengers Martial Arts Training

  2  AK: Campaign City 11-

  3  AK: Hometown 14-

  3  Breakfall 13-

  3  Bureaucratics 14-

  3  Criminology 13-

  3  Deduction 13-

  3  KS: Criminal Law 13-

  3  Oratory 14-

  3  Paramedics 14-

  3  Prof Skill: Lawyer 13-

 10  2 HTH Combat levels

 16  2 Overall Combat levels

330 Total Powers, Perks & Skills

700 Total CP - (Note: edited to correct math error and add a splash of Shulky fun.)

[wcw43921]

Excellent jobs on the builds--but where are the Complications?

[Comic]

Excellent jobs on the builds--but where are the Complications?

 

Complications in 6E seem to me to be more campaign-world oriented than previously; both characters have well-known backstories to draw complications suited to the GM's world from. If I had listed them, likely they'd be listed as floating DNPC, floating rival, floating hunter/watcher, etc.

 

Complications for both of these characters have surprisingly little relevance to a simple conflict between them, I think. She Hulk doesn't use magic; Wonder Woman doesn't use radiation.

 

So I've left them off for the sake of this comparison, but would be glad to see others' take on the characters, including complications.

 

Some notes: as built, it's clear Wonder Woman at 1,000 CP ought easily, with almost double the SPD and at least 5 OCV and DCV advantage, defeat She Hulk before even the improved Jennifer Walters lays a gamma-fueled finger on Diana in a stand-up fight. That said, at their strength and mobility levels, this is almost sure to degenerate to a war of throwing buildings at each other until nothing big enough to toss is left, and being buried in terrain or underwater.. and She Hulk's disadvantages decrease some in that kind of fight, though I still expect Wonder Woman to win at least three times in four in a gloves-off battle royale.

[Mister E]

Even one vote means that in at least one alternate reality somebody [at least one person] won.

[Jazzidemus]

So going by those sheets your looking at a paragon vs a classic brick, if you go by numbers it's Diana, factor in dice rolls , environment, and what not, it still leans towards our Amazon, but I wouldn't count Jen out. Maybe Shulky gets the lasso from Diana and uses it on her. (assuming that still works?)

[assault]

And then it turns into fan service... everyone wins.

 

So going by those sheets your looking at a paragon vs a classic brick, if you go by numbers it's Diana, factor in dice rolls , environment, and what not, it still leans towards our Amazon, but I wouldn't count Jen out. Maybe Shulky gets the lasso from Diana and uses it on her. (assuming that still works?)

[Echo3Niner]

[Comic]

Even knowing cover art is often, if not always, misleading (Wonder Woman whimpering in tears on the ground? She Hulk needing to call herself a 'New Wonder Woman'? I don't think so.).. Stan Lee's Facebook page has a link to a fan vs. fan She Hulk vs. Wonder Woman debate-off, with a unanimous She Hulk win.

 

Though let's put that into some perspective. Of the two, which do you think in her own continuity has been shown standing on the wing of her invisible plane towing the Sun back to the solar system with her golden lasso, after it was stolen?

 

You could gamma irradiate and anger any Hulk forever, and that level of unPhysics still would not be an outcome.

 

Even though that feat is entirely within Wonder Woman's concept and story and entirely outside She Hulk's, because it's a better story, She Hulk should beat Wonder Woman at some point when Wonder Woman is in the wrong, in a match surpassing Gilgamesh and Enkidu. That win -- not some purposeless throwdown -- is conceivable, and would be worth reading.

[Greywind]

...yeah. Ranks right up there with Hercules towing Manhattan Island back into place.

[Echo3Niner]

Pay attention to the price/age...

[assault]

Sweet photoshopping.

[bigbywolfe]

Even knowing cover art is often, if not always, misleading (Wonder Woman whimpering in tears on the ground? She Hulk needing to call herself a 'New Wonder Woman'? I don't think so.).. Stan Lee's Facebook page has a link to a fan vs. fan She Hulk vs. Wonder Woman debate-off, with a unanimous She Hulk win.

 

Though let's put that into some perspective. Of the two, which do you think in her own continuity has been shown standing on the wing of her invisible plane towing the Sun back to the solar system with her golden lasso, after it was stolen?

 

To put it into even more perspective, Stan Lee's Facebook page is going to have a lot more Marvel fanboys than DC ones.

[Comic]

To put it into even more perspective, Stan Lee's Facebook page is going to have a lot more Marvel fanboys than DC ones.

 

Yes, a list of improbabilities of dubious credibility.. about the same scale as Wonder Woman towing the Sun using her lasso from the wing of her plane, flipped to show how entirely credible by comparison She Hulk winning some sort of fight under some sort of circumstance might be.

 

Though the event was recorded live as a bit of LARPtertainment.. also packed with Marvel fanboys.. and a Wonder Woman who seems to have never actually read an issue of any DC comic, ever.

 

However, there is one thing Stan Lee did say, directly in the introduction to this presentation: She Hulk is "by far the strongest female in the Marvel Universe." Period.

 

Taking Stan Lee at his word, that's stronger than goddesses, heralds of Galactus (which she has been), Entities, Phoenix.. we have to ask, is the strongest female in the Marvel Universe weaker than the strongest female on Earth in the DC Universe?