DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Starlord]

10 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

And gods forbid they make something actually lighthearted like Big with superheroes.  Then it's pitchforks and torches!

 

What if it's 13 Going on 30 with superheroes?

[RDU Neil]

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think DC hits the tone just right in their older animated stuff, but I'm a comic book fan, so I accept certain tropes and assumptions that the regular moviegoer might find silly or unacceptable.  I doubt it, not just because of my personal preference, but because its been demonstrated over and over that if you deliver a concept entertainingly and professionally it doesn't even matter how weird or illogical it is.  People will accept a movie about an animate tree and a talking raccoon, or a wizard and a couple little people with a ring of doom, or space wizards with light swords.  If you do it right.

 

It feels to me that Supergirl and Flash (if the writing were better) and Black Lighting seem to hit closer to the tone you at talking about. I mean, I really enjoyed Young Justice a lot, but that is because it used animation to bring to life a comic book tone. There is no way, without massive budget, that they could provide the seemless action and character bits that are easy in animation, but would cost a bajillion dollars of SFX and physical trainers and choreographers, etc. So much of what works in animation is how the characters move and casually use their powers, and they can jet off into space or the bottom of the ocean and back to their Volcano HQ easily... they can leap in and out of trees while quipping and so common stunts that would be insane to try to produce live, that are just throwaway moments in animation.

The medium is REALLY important in capturing "superheroes brought to life" and the medium of live action TV or movies just will never do that. To me, the reason the Marvel movies work so well, is that they understood this from the beginning. They understood "Make a good action movie, but turn it up a notch," and this works. As much as I enjoyed Ragnarok, or hated Infinity War, the more they move into the cosmic, wild, colorful sturm und drang... the more the Marvel movies start to crack. The fight scenes in Civil War are a great example. The Bucky capture and then escape scenes were amazing, well acted, dramatic... and very grounded. The giant airport fight was awesome, which was impressive, because the weightlessness of the CGI began to show a little. The more they escalate that, the more the movies become un-relatable and just big light shows.

 

I think there needs to be realistic expectations for what can be translated from the comic book and animation, which still require a lot of investment and imagination by the viewer, to any kind of "live action" medium.

 

Edit: And if DC chose to bring PIXAR level of animation and writing to a movie universe (DCAMU?) then maybe we'd have something. I think viewers would be very negative about trying to expand The Incredibles into a "universe" that was to be taken serially and seriously... but if there was sophisticated writing and direction with sophisticated animation... maybe you could get your DCAMU that you envision. I just can't see it working with live action.

[RDU Neil]

5 hours ago, Starlord said:

 

What if it's 13 Going on 30 with superheroes?

 

I think my wife just swooned.

 

 

 

 

Heck, I enjoyed that movie myself, so I'd totally support that.

[zslane]

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think its a mistake to consider it a binary choice: Grimdark or Marvel.  Marvel movies are basically action movies with super powers, they didn't invent anything new in terms of tone and content.  Its Die Hard or Transformers, just with Thor instead of giant robots or John McLane.    So using that kind of tone doesn't make it a "Marvel movie" it just makes it more of a standard action movie which isn't that great a leap but is better than grinding, perpetual misery.

 

You're right, it doesn't have to be a binary choice. But WB/DC seems to think it does. They seem to think they only have two choices: Snyder-esque grimdark or Marvel-esque light(er) action fare. They seem to have forgotten that other options exist as exemplified by movies like Burton's Batman films, Sin City, Kick-Ass, and The Incredibles. Just because "generic action movies amped up a notch" has turned out to be a popular stylistic choice (for Marvel) doesn't mean it is the only, or even best choice. WB/DC does not have to take the same stylistic path, but it is clear they believe they must in order to salvage what they can from the crumbling ruins of the DCEU.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

There is no way, without massive budget, that they could provide the seemless action and character bits that are easy in animation, but would cost a bajillion dollars of SFX and physical trainers and choreographers, etc. So much of what works in animation is how the characters move and casually use their powers, and they can jet off into space or the bottom of the ocean and back to their Volcano HQ easily... they can leap in and out of trees while quipping and so common stunts that would be insane to try to produce live, that are just throwaway moments in animation.

 

There are a lot of good points here and you're probably right at present.  As CGI gets better that might be less of an issue but honestly I think an all-animated version of at least some stories or characters would be best.  I mean Fantastic Four seems really simple but three of the characters have tremendously effects-heavy abilities

[slikmar]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

There are a lot of good points here and you're probably right at present.  As CGI gets better that might be less of an issue but honestly I think an all-animated version of at least some stories or characters would be best.  I mean Fantastic Four seems really simple but three of the characters have tremendously effects-heavy abilities

And the fourth requires opposing actors to be really good mimes.

[Ranxerox]

A gift for Hermit

 

 

[Starlord]

Despite the fact that Aquaman sucks, that video was actually pretty great.

[Hermit]

On 7/29/2018 at 2:45 AM, Starlord said:

Despite the fact that Aquaman sucks, that video was actually pretty great.

 

At least he doesn't have dorky little wings on his feet

 

 

[zslane]

Yeah, the winged feet were a very bizarre design choice for Namor. It's not like he's an avatar for Hermes, so what's up with that?

[Christopher R Taylor]

How else is he gonna fly??

[RDU Neil]

1 minute ago, zslane said:

Yeah, the winged feet were a very bizarre design choice for Namor. It's not like he's an avatar for Hermes, so what's up with that?

 

He can fly, and the wings have something to do with that (as wasn't there a time when they were cut off and he couldn't fly? The Byrne Namor run?

 

I honestly think it was old school 4 color simplicity of a way to show that he could fly.

[zslane]

40 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

How else is he gonna fly??

 

Atlantian magic?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Keep in mind that Namor used to look really weird, alien.  He didn't start out the stud that makes Sue Storm's heart go all a-flutter.  The wings were just one more oddity

 

And that wasn't the art style, he was just odd looking compared to everyone else in the comics.

[Bazza]

18 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

At least he doesn't have dorky little wings on his feet

 

 

 

He has dorky wings on his helmet instead?  

 

Those feet-wings are cool. Namor all the way! 

[Starlord]

Matt Reeves says next Batman movie will be a noir-style, investigation story

 

This sounds interesting as I don't think they've ever focused enough on him being 'the world's greatest detective'.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, the fact that Batman is first and foremost a detective has been largely forgotten, turning him into a thug with a plan instead.  Or replacing "detective" with "has a bitchen computer"  A noir detective story with Batman sounds exactly right for the character.

[Hermit]

4 hours ago, Starlord said:

Matt Reeves says next Batman movie will be a noir-style, investigation story

 

This sounds interesting as I don't think they've ever focused enough on him being 'the world's greatest detective'.

 

This is one of those situations where, if the movie does it right, fans who aren't aware of his detective side might STILL grumble because they were expecting only explosions and fisticuffs...and I'm gonna wanna smack the audience members who gripe how it was a 'thinky' movie

 

 

[zslane]

I too would love to see the Sherlock Holmes side of Batman and less of the brawling ninja crap. This would be the exact opposite of the Batman we got in The Dark Knight Rises, and I for one am all in favor of it.

[slikmar]

Sadly, the 2 best known villains that this would have been great for have kind of been made a joke of in the movies - Riddler and Scarecrow. I don't want to see one about Rach. Maybe Calendar Man or Hush might be good. Even Black Mask might work, bringing a noir detective vs the gangs into it.

[Spence]

This is the first supers news that genuinely has me looking forward to it in years.  I have liked several of the supers movies so far (Marvel, with a few grudging likes in DC's movieverse) but the thought of Batman the Detective is just awesome.  

 

I am fully aware that I will be severely disappointed and my enthusiasm will be ruthlessly crushed.  But I will enjoy the moment.....

 

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, Spence said:

 

 

I am fully aware that I will be severely disappointed and my enthusiasm will be ruthlessly crushed.  But I will enjoy the moment.....

 

 

Ha! I have lived there myself

[Christopher R Taylor]

My guess is noir means "even grimdarker" and detective means "the villain's plan is tougher to figure out than the previous films" but we'll see. Who the villain might be is a puzzler, Batman has one of the best and most varied rogue's galleries in comics with even goofy bad guys being remade into interesting ones by later writers.  I mean, I'd really rather they not do the Penguin because he's best used as a mob boss rather than an antagonist, but one way to go would be just the Falcone mob and then mercs hired by them.  Most of the opponents Batman fights are regular people anyway, even Ra's Al-Gul's agents were just trained thugs.  There are a lot of other ways to challenge Bats other than physical combat.

[zslane]

A lot probably depends on how much Reeves plans to "reimagine" Batman's villains. For instance, he might turn the Riddler into a serial killer who leaves behind cryptic riddles instead of sending pages of ciphertext to newspapers. Two-Face could be written as a Gotham judge with split personality disorder, where the other personality is a crime boss whose face is self-contorted ala James Nesbitt's Jekyll. The Scarecrow could be changed into a biochemist working on a weaponized fear agent for the military who goes rogue (though that would better fit an action thriller than a noir detective piece).

[slikmar]

One of the things I liked about the original Schumacher Batman with Michael Keaton was that Bruce had to figure out what the Joker's plan was, especially the mixing of the chemicals. As you said, many of Batman's rogues started as normals with elaborate plans. It's why he had to do detective work and became so good at it. Like I said, wouldn't mind seeing someone like Black Mask in this. Head of a mob gang and a plotter in his own right. Or maybe a serial killer like Professor Pyg or Zaszz. Something where Bruce had to figure out what is going on and why. Sounds funny, but I wonder if the Leto Joker wouldn't be a good villain for this, but I am tired of the Joker.