Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[DShomshak]

An interesting editorial here. The pundit makes a good point about how the new Republican party is in some senses making Congress more "democratic," which doesn't sound "authoritarian." But I think the writer misses the point that one can be anti-institutional and still be rabidly authoritarian. The question is where the authority lies. Part of what makes fascism fascist is the lack of due process: Institutions operate by the whim of the leader, the party, or the mob. And from what I can see, the core grievance of MAGATs is that the formal machinery of law and government denies them the cultural dominance they seek, in which people like them can wield arbitrary power over everyone else. In which case, offices stripped of power and institutions in chaos suit them very well.

 

The Kevin McCarthy speaker debacle has a silver lining (msn.com)

 

Dean Shomshak

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

An interesting editorial here. The pundit makes a good point about how the new Republican party is in some senses making Congress more "democratic," which doesn't sound "authoritarian." But I think the writer misses the point that one can be anti-institutional and still be rabidly authoritarian. The question is where the authority lies. Part of what makes fascism fascist is the lack of due process: Institutions operate by the whim of the leader, the party, or the mob. And from what I can see, the core grievance of MAGATs is that the formal machinery of law and government denies them the cultural dominance they seek, in which people like them can wield arbitrary power over everyone else. In which case, offices stripped of power and institutions in chaos suit them very well.

 

The Kevin McCarthy speaker debacle has a silver lining (msn.com)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

His is one take but it reads like the writer's a Republican apologist.  The effort by the holdouts wasn't to make anything more democratic, it was a demand for power to be moved.  If they want due process, they'll support the ethics committee, not crush it.  A motion to vacate is good for accountability...but even 5 is a ridiculously low number.  (See the speaker voting, round 14.  6 continued the mess.)  But 1?  And there's little or no consequences for doing so.  At this point, the nominal leader is completely subject to the whims of its most radical single member.

 

Actions matter, to be sure, but the motives behind them often matter much more.  

 

So, yes, I think we mostly agree.

[Old Man]

It's been pointed out that the Republicans cannot afford to have more than 6 of their number out of the chamber at any time, lest a Democrat force a new vote for a Speaker who will immediately undo all the ridiculous rules.

[wcw43921]

15 hours ago, Pariah said:

What is the old bit from Douglas Adams? Something about how nobody who actually wants to be the President should, under any circumstances, be allowed to do the job?

 

Maybe we're looking at the same thing here.

 

The rebuttal to that, I think, is Czar Nicholas II.  As I understand it, he didn't particularly want to be Czar, he wasn't trained very well for the job, and consequently wasn't very good at it, to the point that he crashed the entire Czarist regime.  Maybe it would have survived without the First World War, but with an heir who would have to beat very long odds to live into his twenties, that doesn't seem likely.

 

I do think that to be a good leader, one must want the job and work for the job.  But what is more important is that one must care enough about the people and the community they wish to serve to be an effective leader and act in their best interest.  And it is important that leaders think of themselves as servants, rather than masters, to have the humility to think of themselves as still one of the people, rather than set themselves above them.  I don't believe Trump had that humility, or that he cared enough about the nation and her people--and I think Melania expressed that lack of humility in that particular choice of outerwear.  And I'm mostly certain that none of the more vocal Republicans care enough about the nation and her people, either.  They just care about being in charge.

[Armitage]

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

His is one take but it reads like the writer's a Republican apologist.  The effort by the holdouts wasn't to make anything more democratic, it was a demand for power to be moved. 

 

 

See also, for example, the times recently that a Republican state legislature has passed laws to strip power from their state's Governor and give it to themselves in the period between a Democrat getting elected Governor and taking office.

[Cancer]

On 1/6/2023 at 4:30 PM, death tribble said:

And I thought that last year's mess with the Conservative Party was bad. The Republican Party did not need to one up it.

 

You misunderstand current US politics.  Way too much of the moron segment of the country wants to be entertained, not governed.

[Pariah]

...as evidenced by the fact that we, collectively, recently elected a reality show host to the Oval Office. 

[Starlord]

Brazil is experiencing their own Jan 6th right now....

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protesters-storm-brazils-congress-support-former-brazilian-president-j-rcna64816

[Cygnia]

57 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Brazil is experiencing their own Jan 6th right now....

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protesters-storm-brazils-congress-support-former-brazilian-president-j-rcna64816

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612164421974986763

[Pariah]

Yet another unfortunate export of our country, I suppose.

[Starlord]

Looks like they also got into the Presidential Palace - my wife's sister-in-law works there, but not at work today.

 

FYI - they even have their own 'QAnon shamans'

 

[DShomshak]

<wince> Of course  they do. Stupid and Crazy are more contagious than Covid.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

It seems that even when a democracy succeeds at turfing out a would-be autocrat, the damage they've done lingers. It remains to be seen for how long.

[unclevlad]

Brazil also has serious corruption problems, which always raises the specter that those who benefit from the old regime will seek its return, by any means.

 

https://freedomhouse.org/country/brazil/freedom-world/2022

[MrWolf]

I heard on NPR that there have been fairly few elections of Speaker of the House that had to have multiple votes... but hey... plus/minus maybe?... at least it wasn't MONTHS like one time.

 

The House last struggled to elect a speaker 100 years ago. Here's what happened : NPR

 

The Longest and Most Contentious Speaker Election in House History | US House of Representatives: History, Art & Archives

 

1856 - two MONTHS.

[Pariah]

Now that they have a Speaker (for now), the next order of business for the House is to approve a rules package for the session. Some of the proposals include:

 

Requiring that new spending has to be offset with cuts elsewhere in the budget.

I'm not philosophically opposed to this, but I mistrust how the GOP will do it. Social programs and education, most likely, instead of pork projects that could legitimately use trimming. 

Requiring that lawmakers get 72 hours to read a bill before it's brought to the floor.

I'm on board with this.

Allowing the House to vote to create a select subcommittee focused on investigating the origins of the pandemic and the "weaponization of the federal government.”

QAnon conspiracy theorist bullplop. 

Gutting the Office of Congressional Ethics, the nonpartisan, independent office that investigates lawmakers.

Wow, didn't see this one coming. 

 

In short, business as usual for the Party of Trump & Co.

[unclevlad]

The comment about 72 hours is that it's an attempt to slow down all deliberations...thereby getting less done.  There have been reports, too, about unlimited amendments on appropriations bills, and another reinstating a rule that allows notions of salary reductions, specific programs cuts, or firing specific personnel, as part of appropriations bills.  Would the 72 hour rule apply to amendments?

 

The 20 who voted against McCarthy for so long have shown they don't care if the government does nothing...that would, in their view, even be a good thing.  So you have to consider that rule in this light.

 

 

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Holy crap, Ohio. 

 

With stroke of his pen, Gov. Mike DeWine defines natural gas as green energy

 

[unclevlad]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:47 PM, Pariah said:

Allowing the House to vote to create a select subcommittee focused on investigating the origins of the pandemic and the "weaponization of the federal government.”

QAnon conspiracy theorist bullplop. 

 

 

Well, they wasted no time, did they?
The weaponization committee has been created.  

 

Yeah, this darn sure looks more like the House Un-American Activities Committee than anything legit...

[assault]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Well, they wasted no time, did they?
The weaponization committee has been created.  

 

Yeah, this darn sure looks more like the House Un-American Activities Committee than anything legit...

 

Bi-partisan, or totally GOP? If the former, which Democrats are going to be... willing to be part of it.

Actually, if it can't be stopped from existing, AOC and other members of the squad should be on it. Just for fun.

[unclevlad]

I assume it'll have Democrats on it...but yes, as you say, whether they're anything more than pro forma seems unlikely.  This is *probably* going to be a very toxic committee, with some rabid election deniers.  And the entire premise of the committee is witch hunting.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

The choice of words in the committee's stated purpose declares that as far as Republicans are concerned, its findings have already been decided.

 

Lavrentiy Beria, Josef Stalin's deputy premier and chief of the secret police from 1941 to 1953, is famous for having said, "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime."

[Pariah]

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The choice of words in the committee's stated purpose declares that as far as Republicans are concerned, its findings have already been decided.

 

To me, this represents the opposite of the scientific method: Start with the conclusion, and work backwards to find supporting evidence. 

 

Is it any wonder that so many of the GQP are science deniers? 

[Pariah]

NY Republicans call for George Santos to resign, DC GOP leaders silent

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

To me, this represents the opposite of the scientific method: Start with the conclusion, and work backwards to find supporting evidence. 

 

Is it any wonder that so many of the GQP are science deniers? 

 

IME that isn't completely opposed to actual research. Scientists will create a theory -- inspired by observed phenomena, granted -- then look for experimental evidence to support it. Experiments are designed for the purpose of testing that theory.

 

But that isn't what the GOP in the House are doing. The smarter ones already know they won't find anything, but almost none of them care. This is a circus intended to make them look to their supporters like they're actually doing something, to distract and embarrass the Democrats as much as possible, and for some of them, because they have Trumpian levels of craving attention.