Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[BoloOfEarth]

11 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

Next election we'll get president Kool-Ade Man?

 

And will still be markedly better than the one we have now.

[Hermit]

Anyone else find it interesting we have this 

 

"Investigations continue ..."

"Tax plan for the rich!"

"Net Neutrality"

Then as eyes start to notice.. 

 

"Look, Jerusalem" 

[Lord Liaden]

Hermit, that's a pretty insightful observation. Don't know whether it actually applies or not, but it would fit Trump's pattern of distraction from domestic controversies. Of course doing that by stirring up a hornet's nest of international controversy isn't smart policy; but Trump has always let his neighbors' houses burn if that helps keep his own safe.

[BoloOfEarth]

31 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Of course doing that by stirring up a hornet's nest of international controversy isn't smart policy; but Trump has always let his neighbors' houses burn if that helps keep his own safe.

 

Yes, thank God that turmoil in the Middle East never, ever, ever spills over onto American soil. 

[Tech priest support]

Check this out:  http://news.groopspeak.com/germany-denounces-the-united-states-under-trumps-leadership-releases-historic-statement/

 

You know, I never thought icd say this and it took a thing like trump to get me to say this, but I think Germany needs to look at developing a nuclear arsenal. Possibly as a defense against an American/Russian/Chinese alliance. As it I would honestly suggest that Europe create a significant nuclear arsenal to make it impossible for them to be militarily coerced and dominated by Russia and/or china, possibly even america.

[BoloOfEarth]

 

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Sociotard said:

Obama's invasion of Libya didn't go any better than Bush II's invasion of Iraq. Libya was less costly to the US, in treasure and lives, but the end state of both was a dysfunctional state embroiled in civil war, refugees, and better recruitment for terrorists.

Except Lybia was a proper NATO Mandate, not some custom American action without International approval. So was the ending of the Mandate. There was never even a ground invasion, only air support:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

 

And even despite all taht, Trump somehow manages to make it worse:

 

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

Anyone else find it interesting we have this 

 

"Investigations continue ..."

"Tax plan for the rich!"

"Net Neutrality"

Then as eyes start to notice.. 

 

"Look, Jerusalem" 

Trump is a Troll. Distraction is Troll tactic 101. This action was expected.

 

29 minutes ago, Tech priest support said:

Check this out:  http://news.groopspeak.com/germany-denounces-the-united-states-under-trumps-leadership-releases-historic-statement/

 

You know, I never thought icd say this and it took a thing like trump to get me to say this, but I think Germany needs to look at developing a nuclear arsenal. Possibly as a defense against an American/Russian/Chinese alliance. As it I would honestly suggest that Europe create a significant nuclear arsenal to make it impossible for them to be militarily coerced and dominated by Russia and/or china, possibly even america.

I would prefer a Euroean Nuclear Arsenal. France already has a decent one (people often forget that).

[Tech priest support]

You know people still think about the holocaust wen Germany is mentioned but look at what the united states did to the  indigenous population of both America. We committed atrocities on the Aboriginals here. We deliberately infected them with smallpox. We deliberately destroyed their food sources, like the buffalo, to cause mass starvation to get he mm out of our way. We committed massacres on a large scale. It was a common viewpoint tat extermination would be the most effective way to deal with them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hardeman_Burnett

 

So can we acknowledge we had our horrible past too and stop making out like Germany did something Americans would never possibly have done?

 

[Tech priest support]

7 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Except Lybia was a proper NATO Mandate, not some custom American action without International approval. So was the ending of the Mandate. There was never even a ground invasion, only air support:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

 

And even despite all taht, Trump somehow manages to make it worse:

 

Trump is a Troll. Distraction is Troll tactic 101. This action was expected.

 

I would prefer a Euroean Nuclear Arsenal. France already has a decent one (people often forget that).

I mm OK with that, even if Europe becomes the last bastion of true democracy and liberty on earth and must aim some of it's nuclear weapons at America to protect itself.

[Simon]

Histrionics are reaching actionable levels, folks.  Tone it down.

[Christopher]

23 minutes ago, Tech priest support said:

I mm OK with that, even if Europe becomes the last bastion of true democracy and liberty on earth and must aim some of it's nuclear weapons at America to protect itself.

Back when Bush was President some german commedian remarked:

"Once America saved us from Facism. Now might be the time to return the favor." Looks like he was "too soon".

 

Honestly, Trump is gambling with the future of his country. They are way over debt, but they can afford it because their currency is the "world reserve currency" against all others are pegged. That gives them a unique Economic position.

We Europeans only allowed to that persist, because they were defenders of Democracy and Sanity in the world. That was the one reason we let the US do stuff like Guantanmo bay or the Irak War. If they stop being that, all that will change. And I highly doubt those changes will be to the benefit of the US.

 

 

As for salvery in Lybia, the Fake News Thing is well known. And the connection to Trumps tweets explicitly stated by the one network bringing it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/28/libya-slave-trade-cnn-report-trump-fake-news

https://globalnews.ca/news/3886572/libya-tv-donald-trump-cnn-fake-news/

https://rollingout.com/2017/11/29/libya-says-african-slave-trade-not-real-trumps-fake-news-claims/

 

[Tech priest support]

Given trump's ties to putin, I would say Europe should not depend on america to defend it from Russian aggression now. Also I have no doubt if Putin saw military threats or action against Europe as advantageous to him he would in initiate  same. Germany might need to develop a few high energy deterrents to Russian aggression.

 

[Sociotard]

Actually authorizing air support to help topple a guy we'd promised not to topple if he stopped sponsoring terror and never developed nukes (and he complied with both, making the US feckless)

vs.

A narrative that maybe helps question the legitimacy of a CNN report.

 

Nope. I don't see the equivalency. I'm just sorry I'll never get to vote for a humble foreign policy that seeks stability and peace.

[Christopher]

2 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

Nope. I don't see the equivalency. I'm just sorry I'll never get to vote for a humble foreign policy that seeks stability and peace.

Peace and Stability are by nature mutually exclusive. In order to maintain stability, sometimes military intervention is the only option.

 

Mind you, war is becomming less and elss common despite all that. But still, sometimes you have to crack some eggs to make sure none that are toxic are reaching the market.

[Ranxerox]

44 minutes ago, Sociotard said:

Actually authorizing air support to help topple a guy we'd promised not to topple if he stopped sponsoring terror and never developed nukes (and he complied with both, making the US feckless)

vs.

A narrative that maybe helps question the legitimacy of a CNN report.

 

Nope. I don't see the equivalency. I'm just sorry I'll never get to vote for a humble foreign policy that seeks stability and peace.

 

At the time Qaddafi was talking about exterminating, his Arab Spring uprisers  like cockroaches.  The massacres in Burundi taught the Clintons that inaction could have consequences just as dire as those of action.  That is why she advocated for the US to take an active role in the struggle.  Ultimately, it turned out very badly, but a good case can be made that the fault was in the US doing too little rather than doing too much. 

[Ragitsu]

8 hours ago, Hermit said:

"Look, Jerusalem" 

 

Over a month ago, it was "Look, i'm banning those icky transgendered people from our armed forces."

 

These gestures are, in my estimation, roughly 40% red meat thrown to his base (and "base" is definitely the correct term, in this instance) and 60% general distraction from his other disastrous policies.

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

At the time Qaddafi was talking about exterminating, his Arab Spring uprisers  like cockroaches.  The massacres in Burundi taught the Clintons that inaction could have consequences just as dire as those of action.  That is why she advocated for the US to take an active role in the struggle.  Ultimately, it turned out very badly, but a good case can be made that the fault was in the US doing too little rather than doing too much. 

Exactly that.

Why do people love to blame progessives for completely reasonable Decisions? Libya was based on a Mandate of the UN Security council. That is not a trivial thing to get. A lot of people had to agree with this. And unlike Irak, they did agree.

 

Unless they are willing to claim "a Republican President would not have done the same thing", people are not even trying to say anything. And that claim could be taken appart in a heartbeat.

 

If anything the costly Irak war and general weariness of the US for foreign intervention thanks to it, lead to Obama not comitting more resources afterwards. You can give Bush Jr. and his Republicans 25-50% of the Credit for how Lybia turned out too. But I guess the Democrats have not enough real crisis, so americans have to invent issues this way?

[CrosshairCollie]

7 hours ago, Tech priest support said:

You know people still think about the holocaust wen Germany is mentioned but look at what the united states did to the  indigenous population of both America.

 

I have often been flamed for referring to the WW2 Holocaust has the second biggest attempted genocide in world history, as IIRC we slaughtered far more Native Americans as Germany did the Jewish.

 

In an unrelated note, Al Franken is resigning.  While I agree that what he did was terrible, I don't think he should have resigned while Trump, who publicly confessed to the far worse crime of child rape, is still in office.

 

And I firmly agree with the above, that Germany and other European countries need to prepare themselves against potential American aggression.  I don't think we're going to get out of this one ... it wasn't even a slippery slope into fascism, it was more like walking off a cliff but, in true Wile E. Coyote style, most people didn't realize it until we actually looked down.  I'm earnestly ashamed to be American right now (and a white male, for that matter).  The 'American Experiment' is over, and it failed.

[Pattern Ghost]

2 hours ago, CrosshairCollie said:

Trump, who publicly confessed to the far worse crime of child rape

 

I haven't heard this one. When did he do this? Do you have a cite? Seems hyperbolic.

[csyphrett]

2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I haven't heard this one. When did he do this? Do you have a cite? Seems hyperbolic.

Snopes has the coverage for it here

CES 

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, csyphrett said:

Snopes has the coverage for it here

CES 

 

I knew about his relationship with Epstein, but when did Trump admit to child rape?

 

I didn't see anything in that article to support the assertion that Trump confessed to child rape. In fact, it looks like his statement was exactly the opposite.

 

So, absent any actual quote other than the one in the Snopes article, I'm going to assume that the original comment was hyperbole.

 

I'm not going to count the quote about Epstein being a great guy who likes his ladies young as a confession. 

 

This isn't to defend Trump, but this thread is supposed to stick to facts, AFAICT. (Edit: Obviously, we're allowed to give our opinions, or the thread would be utterly pointless, but declarative statements should be factual, I think.)

 

 

[Christopher]

9 hours ago, CrosshairCollie said:

I have often been flamed for referring to the WW2 Holocaust has the second biggest attempted genocide in world history, as IIRC we slaughtered far more Native Americans as Germany did the Jewish.

As you can see with Turkey, it really is a issue if you do not own up to the Genocides in your History.

 

But I would not sell us germans short. People often say that "Stalin killed almost as many people". But he did so over much longer time, it does not compare. Hitler did all his murdering in 12 years. And he would have done a lot more had he won. Jews were just one of the target groups. Once they had outlived their usefullness, even Japan would have become a target.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Christopher said:

As you can see with Turkey, it really is a issue if you do not own up to the Genocides in your History.

 

But I would not sell us germans short. People often say that "Stalin killed almost as many people". But he did so over much longer time, it does not compare. Hitler did all his murdering in 12 years. And he would have done a lot more had he won. Jews were just one of the target groups. Once they had outlived their usefullness, even Japan would have become a target.

 

One of the more disturbing elements of the Holocaust was how it applied technology and the principles of industrial mass production to mass murder. There was an amoral, dispassionate efficiency to it which the world had never seen before.

[Christopher]

You know how US Republicans are against "big government" and for state rights? Well, I do not know why you would still think that, their actions are pretty clearly the opposite:

https://nypost.com/2017/12/06/house-passes-gop-bill-allowing-concealed-carry-across-state-lines/

In short: If you have a Conceal Carry Licenses in any one state, this one is automatically applied in any state that also allows Concealed Carry - regardless how different the rules for it are there.

[Pattern Ghost]

So, the liberal side of the press doesn't like the concealed carry reciprocity part of the bill, and the conservative side of the press doesn't like the fix NICS part of the bill. Seems like it's ticking off people on both sides. I'm still looking for an article that just has some facts about the content of the bill in it, rather than Chicken Little screams over the assumed consequences of the bill.

 

But I know our Congress: I suspect it's not a very good bill. Both sides are probably right in that.