Mental Entangle

[Hugh Neilson]

2d6 makes sense to me for a Heroic game.

 

Two questions I would look at before a special ability exclusively to offset Entangles:

 

First, what was the Dragon's mDCV?  An investment there, making the creature tougher to hit with Mental Paralysis, might go a long way to dealing with the issue.  Of course, a lucky '3' still hits regardless of mDCV, but if the Mental Paralysis is less of an autohit, it seems like that would counter the issue at least somewhat.

 

Second, would mandating "Mental Defense adds to EGO" as a limitation have made a difference?  An effective 40 Ego (say 20 natural and 20 Mental Defense) and Casual Ego of 4d6 will break a 2d6, 2 defense Mental Paralysis on an average roll, before anyone has time to attack.

 

One further possibility - what about allowing a target about to be attacked to Abort to break the entangle?  Given the purpose is to get his DCV back, that feels like a defensive action.  Allowing the Dragon to abort his next phase to immediately get a full attack and shred the Entangle would mean the spell still has some impact (next phase lost) without casually ending the battle.  Coupled with a decent dMCV and casual Ego, this would mean that a lucky strike inconveniences the Big Bad without ending the battle.

 

I think the bigger problem comes if the Big Bad's mDCV is so poor the spell hits 90% of the time, and there's virtually no chance Casual Ego breaks him out.  Boosting his defenses to mental attacks overall (I'm guessing Casual STR would shred a physical entangle) seems like a more natural way to resolve the problem than a 3 charge "get out of entangle free" ability.  As you note, it's not as big a deal when it takes out a single Orc - that's when the AoE spell the Big Bad Guy casually walks through comes into its own.

 

 

[drunkonduty]

Toxxus, congratulations on your 100th post!

 

Gotta say, I do not like the DnD Legendary Resistance thing. (Not played 5th ed but have watched enough Critical Role to think it's balls. Pardon language.)

 

<rant>

I get it why they have the mechanic. DnD is swingy and it's habit of having Boss Fights (in the video game sense of them) means that one unlucky die roll stuffs the BBEG and the whole thing is anti-climactic. I'd rather they just designed the adventures differently and didn't rely exclusively on the One Big Monster fight. Change it up guys!

</end rant>

 

If you don't want targets taken out in one shot then you're better of limiting up front powers that can do that, rather than allowing them while keeping a trump up your sleeve. Being trumped in this way would stick in my craw as a player. I figure it like this: I've earned the points (levels, whatever) to get the cool new power. I've been looking forward to it for  while, I want to use it. Annnnnnnd now the GM has just nerfed it completely.  Even while I understand why the GM did what they did, I'd be unsatisfied.

 

From here I'd ask the player if they'd be willing to redesign the power somewhat and/or redefine how mental entangles work, using any of the helpful suggestions others have included up-thread.

 

Also, I should point out that the Legendary Resistance you've built is actually Legendary Resistance to Entangles. sorry.

[Doc Democracy]

10 hours ago, Toxxus said:

I actually like the Legendary Resistance mechanic because it means you have to wear the creature down with "failed saving throws" before you disable it.  This, imo, isn't terribly different from having to wear it down by doing body/stun damage.  Stopping the creature with several good hits - fine.  Stopping the creature with a single overpowering hit - not cinematic nor dramatic.

 

Might you consider. rather than failed saving throws, that the hold monster spell (for the Boss monster) simply reduces its SPD by one - so the players see a result and know that this is not a useless strategy but one that has to play out rather than one that will win the encounter??

SPD changes RAW are a pain, but I would drop the next action - to show the hesitation - and then run as if the new SPD.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

20 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

The issue really comes down to timing.  Being able to break out of the entangle isn't the issue since it will be re-applied the next round - or at least is likely to be.

 

The boss being DCV 0 while most of the characters take a phase to bash it senseless isn't alleviated by the boss breaking loose and then being paralyzed again for a 2nd phase of bashing.

I often consider Entangle to be a form to "detached Grab". They pretty simialr rules. There is however one diffference:
You get a instant, free Casual STR roll to defend against a Grab (same way you get your DCV). You do not get the same against entangle.

 

Wich is why the APG part mentions the option to allow said instant, casual STR/EGO rolls against entangles as well, should the players abuse it like that

[Toxxus]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Second, would mandating "Mental Defense adds to EGO" as a limitation have made a difference?  An effective 40 Ego (say 20 natural and 20 Mental Defense) and Casual Ego of 4d6 will break a 2d6, 2 defense Mental Paralysis on an average roll, before anyone has time to attack.

 

I might need to re-read the casual breakout timing.  I was under the impression that even a casual breakout roll has to occur on the creatures turn. 

 

If they can try immediately or, as you suggested, defensively abort their next turn to break out then that's something that might work.

[Lucius]

On 2/22/2019 at 2:46 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I think the problem is more the interaction between Mental Paralysis and Hit Locations than Mental Paralysis being blank-room OP. 

Unless it's an extremely powerful Mental Paralysis, it'll only be 2d6, 3d6 maybe.  A character with 15-20 EGO should blow out of that pretty easily, and is explicitly allowed to push their roll which gives a decent shot at doing so using casual EGO. 

 

I don't think Pushing can be "Casual."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Even if the palindromedary casually pushes me aside to take its place in the tagline.....

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 minute ago, Lucius said:

I don't think Pushing can be "Casual."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Even if the palindromedary casually pushes me aside to take its place in the tagline.....

I don't see why it couldn't, Pushing rules say nothing about using it to improve a characteristic for a Casual roll. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Mental Entangle is like almost all mental powers, its either overpowered or nearly useless.  Against targets with high Ego and MD, it does virtually nothing.  Against normals its incredibly powerful.  Another thing to consider is Magic Resistance.  In D&D they routinely give powerful creatures magic resistance, which reduces the power and effect of magic used against them.  IF you don't give it to the monsters in FH, you'll see bad results.

 

There are a couple ways to give creatures magic resistance in the game, but Damage Reduction and Damage Negation are the most obvious and typically used ones.  While the rules don't technically state that you can buy DN against mental attacks (or adjustment powers), its certainly easy to extrapolate.

[dsatow]

General question, if 2d6 mental entangle is devastating at 22.5 pts per 1 def/1d6 body, then would a 9d6 mind control be better? 

 

9d6 would average 31.5 points.  Against an ego of 10, that's a +20 effect.  In combat, you could tell an opponent to always immediately dodge, something they'd might be inclined to do in combat and they would get an ego roll at -4 or a 7 or less.

 

[Toxxus]

4 minutes ago, dsatow said:

General question, if 2d6 mental entangle is devastating at 22.5 pts per 1 def/1d6 body, then would a 9d6 mind control be better? 

 

9d6 would average 31.5 points.  Against an ego of 10, that's a +20 effect.  In combat, you could tell an opponent to always immediately dodge, something they'd might be inclined to do in combat and they would get an ego roll at -4 or a 7 or less.

 

 

In this case the boss monster in question had an EGO of 20+ and 10pts of Mental Defense to ward off other mental powers.  All of which does nothing to stop it from being paralyzed and stabbed in the eye balls repeatedly before it gets a turn.

[dsatow]

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

In this case the boss monster in question had an EGO of 20+ and 10pts of Mental Defense to ward off other mental powers.  All of which does nothing to stop it from being paralyzed and stabbed in the eye balls repeatedly before it gets a turn.

 

Could it not have aborted to break free?

[Toxxus]

1 hour ago, dsatow said:

 

Could it not have aborted to break free?

 

That's not anywhere in the source material that I can find, but I'm thinking I will allow it going forward.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

I might need to re-read the casual breakout timing.  I was under the impression that even a casual breakout roll has to occur on the creatures turn. 

 

If they can try immediately or, as you suggested, defensively abort their next turn to break out then that's something that might work.

 

Casual is instant - he simply shrugs it off.  However, a 20 EGO will only be 2d6 (halved as Casual). 

 

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

I don't think Pushing can be "Casual."

 

Agreed - even in games which are very liberal in when/how often an ability can be pushed, that kind of exertion would logically require an action, and Pushing is not casual in any way.

 

6 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

In this case the boss monster in question had an EGO of 20+ and 10pts of Mental Defense to ward off other mental powers.  All of which does nothing to stop it from being paralyzed and stabbed in the eye balls repeatedly before it gets a turn.

 

If it is permitted to Abort to break free (thereby restoring its standard DCV and full Called Shot penalties), it seems like it would smash through the Mental Paralysis quite easily, especially if we add the "mental defense bumps EGO" limitation.  3d6 Casual is unlikely to break free instantly, but could do so.  4d6 Casual will shrug it off on an average roll, and 3 1/2d6 has a decent chance.  Of course, it could always delay, wait for the Mental Paralysis, use Casual Ego to either shatter or weaken it, then break free with its normal action, likely with a half or full phase action remaining.

 

OK, roll your Called Shots at its usual DCV, with -12 OCV for targeting the eye balls.

 

Oh, and don''t forget a PRE attack when it effortlessly breaks free

[Christopher R Taylor]

Mental Defense reduces the effect of mental powers when used on you, so it should immediately take effect on any mental paralysis effect by lower its effect.  I'd suggest that each 5 points of MD should reduce the body and Defense of the paralysis by 1 each (roughly 1d6 of effect of entangle).  Another option would be for MD to negate its number in defense of the entangle, so its just a matter of tearing the thing apart.

[Doc Democracy]

The other option is for MD to add dice to any attempt to break free from the entangle, every 5 MD adding 1D6 to a break out roll.

[Hugh Neilson]

Doc's approach is currently (6e) an optional -1/2 limitation ("MD adds to EGO").  Requiring this limitation seems like a reasonable house rule/build standard. 

 

Given that virtually every other mental power treats MD and EGO as the same thing (other than Mental Attack), it seems reasonable to apply this without the -1/2, especially as "broken by EGO" is only treated as a +1/4 advantage (just change that to "Damaged by EGO + Mental Defense instead of STR; +1/4), but just requiring the limitation under RAW would work.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I can see having mental defense act differently than it does against other mental powers (since its a straight defense against mental attack and an effect reducer against other mental powers) but I'd prefer it be a simple and straight forward as possible.  And defenses are supposed to work up front; they protect you from the power rather than help you overcome its effects, so I don't really like the "adds to breakout" because as Toxxus points out, its too late once you've been paralyzed.  

 

You know it is odd that this never came up before.  Even in Champions III when the Mental Paralysis power first came out (30 points per d6) there's no mention of what mental defense even does.  You'd have thunk that it would have arisen by now.  Champions III does explain how you can use Ego Attack to blow your way free from mental paralysis though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mental Defense adding to EGO means a better casual EGO to damage or break free without ever being caught, or to weaken the entangle for a subsequent breakout.

 

That's similar to Mind Control et al - harder to get the initial result and an easier breakout roll in later phases.

 

However, the question of whether mental defense should have any impact is a good one.  You have to hit the target's mDCV.  If you do, he is mentally entangled.  This is the same as a normal entangle - if it hits, you are entangled with no defenses against the entangle itself.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

22 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

However, the question of whether mental defense should have any impact is a good one.  You have to hit the target's mDCV.  If you do, he is mentally entangled.  This is the same as a normal entangle - if it hits, you are entangled with no defenses against the entangle itself.

It's an interesting collision between description and mechanics. 

PD and ED are "I am hard to hurt with physical/energy powers".  MD is "I am hard to affect with mental powers". 

And for the most part this holds true, since physical non-damaging powers are rarely made mental and vice versa.  But Mental Entangle "breaks" the rules by being "affect" that isn't "hurt". 

 

I imagine a similar situation in reverse would occur with something like Nerve Override Ray Mind Control Nd6 (Resisted by ED and CON instead of MD and EGO -whatever)

[Asperion]

MD has no direct effect on mental paralysis, unless there is something in the power writeup that states otherwise.  This is similar to normal entangles not being effected by PD/ED.  In addition, most of the time people can break out if mental paralysis only by Ego (plus MD if the power allows).  Standard entangles can be broken out of by normal STR plus any ability that is defined by the power and GM (common sense).  The GM should apply the same rules for mental paralysis as well, only transferring things to the mental realm.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:50 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

There are a couple ways to give creatures magic resistance in the game, but Damage Reduction and Damage Negation are the most obvious and typically used ones.  While the rules don't technically state that you can buy DN against mental attacks (or adjustment powers), its certainly easy to extrapolate.

 

Damage Negation is explicitly allowed against Mental damage, and Drains that target STUN or BODY. It has no effect on Mental powers that do not cause damage (such as the mental entangle that started this thread), or Drains that target other characteristics. 

[BoloOfEarth]

Several PCs in my Champions game have Mental Paralysis or a variation thereof (one is a mental maze that works vs. INT instead of STR or EGO).  Yes, it can be an instant shutdown power, although a few select villains have had a few powers that made it less of a problem.  And most villain teams have a mentalist who can generally blow through a Mental Entangle with a single Mental Blast.

 

My current favorite "Mental Entangle Defense" power is:  Neural Freedom Shield:  Drain BODY 1½d6, AoE (Personal Surface; +¼), ACV (OMCV vs. DMCV; +¼), AVAD (Mental Defense; +0), Constant (+½), AP (+¼), Fully Invisible (+1), 0 END (+½); No Range (-½), Mental Contact Only (-½), Only vs. Mental Entangles (-½).  56 AP, 22 RP.

 

An average roll of 5 BODY, minus the (likely halved) MD on the entangle, leaves 3-4 BODY, which only Drains 2 since BODY is a defense power, but that may be enough to take it down.  And since it's a damage shield, it doesn't take the character's action to do its job.  You can imagine the players' surprise when the villain apparently shrugged off the mental paralysis like it wasn't even there.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd permit a MD DN to reduce the effect of an mental based entangle

[Tech]

The permanent houserule in our campaign is Mental Defense automatically reduces body by 1 for every 10 pts of MD (6 pts of MD rounds up so it's 1 Body reduced).

 

A revision on any monsters DECV and mental spells needs to be reviewed in your campaign. If the Mental Entangle of 2d6 is vs anyone/anything, then enemies need to be prepared for it. However, even in D&D, Hold Person and Hold Monster automatically allow you to save to prevent it from holding. Perhaps the Mental Entangle requires an automatic Ego Roll: if the Ego Roll is made, power has no effect, but if the Ego Roll is failed, then it takes effect. Some D&D monsters are immune to paralyzing spells so maybe ridiculous bonus amounts of Ego (only vs Mental Hold powers) can be added to the monster.

[Toxxus]

37 minutes ago, Tech said:

The permanent houserule in our campaign is Mental Defense automatically reduces body by 1 for every 10 pts of MD (6 pts of MD rounds up so it's 1 Body reduced).

 

A revision on any monsters DECV and mental spells needs to be reviewed in your campaign. If the Mental Entangle of 2d6 is vs anyone/anything, then enemies need to be prepared for it. However, even in D&D, Hold Person and Hold Monster automatically allow you to save to prevent it from holding. Perhaps the Mental Entangle requires an automatic Ego Roll: if the Ego Roll is made, power has no effect, but if the Ego Roll is failed, then it takes effect. Some D&D monsters are immune to paralyzing spells so maybe ridiculous bonus amounts of Ego (only vs Mental Hold powers) can be added to the monster.

 

Great ideas!  Thanks.

 

I want to come up with a mechanic that works for the players as well as the monsters.  It's important to have the mechanics work consistently and fairly for both groups.