Duke Bushido Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 34 minutes ago, Spence said: Original Batman (1939 pulp) showed little or no remorse for killing or maiming criminals, bad guys caught in the act and violent were routinely dispatched. And I remember he actually carried and used 45's for a while. Original Batman carried a pair of 45's from day one. But he's also invalid for any comparison to modern superheroes: the need to refer to him specifically as "Original" Batman admits that we are talking essentially talking about a different character. When we speak of "Flash," no one thinks "Gordon" unless prompted to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said: Original Batman carried a pair of 45's from day one. But he's also invalid for any comparison to modern superheroes: the need to refer to him specifically as "Original" Batman admits that we are talking essentially talking about a different character. When we speak of "Flash," no one thinks "Gordon" unless prompted to do so. Invalid? Where in this thread did it say anything about "only current/modern comic versions" or anything close to that? The title is about TV shows failing and there was mention of Batman and then Pattern Ghost made the assertion that Batman has never been a casual killer to which I replied. So.... Batman is not invalid. And yes, Batman was fairly casual in using lethal force during his early publication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Spence said: Original Batman (1939 pulp) showed little or no remorse for killing or maiming criminals, bad guys caught in the act and violent were routinely dispatched. And I remember he actually carried and used 45's for a while. But he wasn't a casual killer. Arrow was. There's a difference between no CVK and Casual Killer. Bats was shown killing (or at least shooting) in the same context as a police officer might, in the course of apprehending bad guys. In Season 1 of Arrow, he was killing guards left and right without any indication that they were actually criminals, and not simply a paid guard service. And since the target was a guy who was a legit businessman on the surface, logically he'd be using a legit guard service at his high rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said: But he wasn't a casual killer. Arrow was. There's a difference between no CVK and Casual Killer. Bats was shown killing (or at least shooting) in the same context as a police officer might, in the course of apprehending bad guys. In Season 1 of Arrow, he was killing guards left and right without any indication that they were actually criminals, and not simply a paid guard service. And since the target was a guy who was a legit businessman on the surface, logically he'd be using a legit guard service at his high rise. Point taken. Casual to me, but definitely not to the extent of Arrow in the TV show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 And to come full circle. My comments regarding season 1 of arrow is specifically a cynical take on it. The allusion between Robin Hood & Batman was meant to be derisive of season 1 like The Hood was cosplaying Robin Hood/Batman. Spence 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjack Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 This thread seems to have drifted off the stated topic. “Jumping the Shark” generally means a particular point in a long running series where you can point to and say “this is where the trouble started”. Like the shark jump on Happy Days or the birth of the character Meath that Jonathon Winters played on Mork & Mindy etc. Here we seem to be complaining about stuff in the first season of a show we personally didn’t happen to like. Pariah, bigbywolfe, Armory and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 I'd say that most of the comments in the thread don't count as jumping the shark moments. Nonetheless, sorry for contributing to the thread drift. Tjack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 I'm sorry too I have always had a hard time picking up on text only nuances. I prefer to speak face to face so I can pick up on cues. Anyway, I'll bow out now. Tjack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjack Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, Spence said: Me sorry too I have always had a hard time picking up on text only nuances. I prefer to speak face to face so I can pick up on cues. Anyway, I'll bow out now. I’m the one who’s sorry, I didn’t mean to spoil the party. I was just looking to get back to what everyone thought were the biggest mistakes in TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Yeah, original way back pulpy Batman was actually kinda lethal but he got over it in a few years and turned more good guy. By the Silver Age he was all non violence and more like the TV show Batman after a while. Personally I like the "won't kill" heroes better because they have to find the tough answers and face the moral quandary rather than taking the short cut. Something the writers of "Man of Steel" did not grok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 s1 of Arrow Oliver was on a mission and fresh out of five years in Hell. The people he killed were those that could out him, his targets, or people between him and his target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Battlestar Galactica (new series) It jumped hard and far when Starbuck came back. Although it started lagging from... Whenever it was the Cylons showed up on and took over the new colony. Start of season 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Legends of Tomorrow went with the whole magic creature thing and became very silly. Tjack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, starblaze said: Legends of Tomorrow went with the whole magic creature thing and became very silly. Yet strangely, I'm good with that. It's one of two CW DC shows that I still watch when they hit Netflix (the other is Black Lightning). I stopped watching Arrow a few years back when they had yet another archer as the big bad. I stopped watching the Flash when they decided to do the Savitar stuff at about the same time. Neither show had a lot of forward motion, and in fact, I kept on missing episodes of Arrow that season, and I found that nothing really happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 8 hours ago, Ternaugh said: I stopped watching Arrow a few years back when they had yet another archer as the big bad. I stopped watching the Flash when they decided to do the Savitar stuff at about the same time. Neither show had a lot of forward motion, and in fact, I kept on missing episodes of Arrow that season, and I found that nothing really happened. Flash season 4 when they introduce The Thinker was really good. I found season 3 with Savitar was a bit disappointing. But having a hero who goes out of his way not to kill is one of the things that makes Flash still watchable. As no-one else has mentioned it yet I will. Once David Duchovny left it could be argued that the X-Files jumped the shark. Alternately it might be claimed when they moved production from Canada to America at the start of season 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 12 hours ago, Greywind said: people between him and his target Like generic security who he never identified as actually being villainous. They could have been Pinkertons for all he knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Congress brought in a law specifically against the Pinkertons so killing them is not a problem for Law Enforcement Officials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Star Trek The Next Generation Wesley Crusher. Nothing that came after on the show could ever make up for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Arrow Killing Laurel Lance. Arrow began with an interesting premise of a Billionaire returning to his home city after five years and becoming an arrow wielding vigilante trying to make up for his Father's crimes. We then get flashbacks from the five missing years explaining my someone who was supposed to be on an island was also in the Russian mob. He's a true vigilante, killing rather then turning over the criminals for justice. Then he starts building a team, with a pretty blonde computer geek and his body guard. Soon his one time girlfriend and his sister get into the act. Then he gets a sidekick. Some DC characters show up like Huntress, and Deathstroke. Things get better. Then the show gets into superhero territory with Flash becoming part of this universe, and even though Arrow's times is what Duke in Doonesbury called his staff at Rolling Stone "An Elite Core of Raving Idiots" with superheroes from the bargain bin, we were forgiving. Finally he had a villain from the comics named Damian Darke, with actual powers, played by the excellent Neal McDonough, and the team had to find a way to defeat him. Then because Katie Cassidy, who played Laurel Lance, wanted to leave the show they killed her. I mean, could she just quit the team, get another job, move away, or anything else that wouldn't have caused the cliche of her having an evil twin so the actress could come back. Arrow rides a motorcycle, and jumped King Shark after this decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjack Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 46 minutes ago, Cassandra said: Star Trek The Next Generation Wesley Crusher. Nothing that came after on the show could ever make up for that. I’m going to take a stand that can get me killed on the internet.....Wesley Crusher was not such a bad character. He was however badly used and written. Every writer who came in had an idea for a script where Wesley notices some thing wrong but can’t get anyone to listen. Unfortunately the backstage situation was in such disarray at the time (William Shatner does a very good 1hr. documentary about it all for PBS) that no one seemed to notice the overlap. For the first season and a half the ship would have been in safer hands if you fired the whole bridge crew and put Wes & Data in charge. “Shut up Jean-Luc!” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Cassandra said: Star Trek The Next Generation Wesley Crusher. Nothing that came after on the show could ever make up for that. Au contraire some of the best episodes came after he left r was not present. For example Best of Both Worlds which is the Borg two parter. But Wil Wheaton recognises that his role was divisive and is a trope of annoying kid. Now if you were to tell me that the 2nd Season where gates McFadden was replaced by Diana Muldaur was a shark jumping moment and a script strike shortened the season, then no contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Cassandra said: Snipped obviously Arrow Killing Laurel Lance. Or underwriting the part. Laurel is Black Canary who is a big part of Green Arrow's life so killing her would be a mistake. Why not recast the part ? Otherwise I agree wit you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 Regarding Wil Wheaton, I think his best work was on Tabletop, but I didn't really believe his performance on that show either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 How about we go to the 60s ? Batman. Season 3 definitely the show had jumped the shark but the episode that solidified this more than any other was when they had women take over and they are rendered useless by mice. Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. the first season was fine but that was in black and white. Then when it goes to colour it goes downhill. Irwin Allen's penny pinching ways are to blame for this. Similarly his Lost in Space series which started out strong but faded when it became more Will Robinson and Dr Smith. And Land of the Giants which also went downhill rapidly. Scott Ruggels and Cassandra 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, death tribble said: How about we go to the 60s ? Batman. Season 3 definitely the show had jumped the shark but the episode that solidified this more than any other was when they had women take over and they are rendered useless by mice. Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. the first season was fine but that was in black and white. Then when it goes to colour it goes downhill. Irwin Allen's penny pinching ways are to blame for this. Similarly his Lost in Space series which started out strong but faded when it became more Will Robinson and Dr Smith. And Land of the Giants which also went downhill rapidly. I completely agree with you on Voyages to the Bottom of the Sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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