Nekkidcarpenter

Hail again,
 
I have an opportunity to run a game session for beginning players next month, and I'm pondering whether to use Hero with an established setting or just go with the beginner sets I have accumulated (to gather dust) over the years.
 
Hero is such an opportunity for different genres, despite having lots of crunch. I'm wondering whether a Skyrim game or wild west stuff would go well with a new group.
 
Would you run Hero for complete beginners? 

Can you play D&D or Pathfinder with an intro set in just a few minutes?  Sure.
 
But you will be playing a pre-fab character.  You will not roll or point-buy your stats, chose a race and a class, select from an array of archetypes within that class, choose variant racial abilities, pick traits and feats, assign skill points and favoured class bonuses, buy gear, select spells, etc. etc. etc.  And that's all for a first-level character.
 
You will select from 6 or 8 pre-fab characters and start the game.
 
Then you will stop to figure out how AC and to hit rolls work.  And how that spell functions.  And what this skill does, and what you need to roll.  You won't likely be using combat maneuvers and, of course, you will have no high level options.
 
And you will make mistakes along the way - just like we all did when we learned to play.  Sometimes, those mistakes were handed down the play group.
 
What Hero needs, first, is Games Powered by Hero.  Pull the curtain over the mechanics.  A Game Powered by Hero could easily have an introductory pack with half a dozen pre-fab characters (a sample of the choices in the game, and a tiny fraction of what you could make with the full system) and a short adventure to introduce this Game Powered by Hero.  They don't even need to know a Dwarven Wizard is possible in your fantasy Game Powered by Hero when all they do is start with the StarterPack.  They certainly don't need to know Hero would let them design other races, abilities, spells and monsters, much less that they could use it to build a sci-fi, post-apocalypse, spies, supers or pulp game.

*Thanks, at least someone said it all outright.*   
    I’d be proud and happy to contribute to an effort to save this game that’s given me so much. Friends, some of my most heartfelt memories, my Godchildren.  
    But I never had the number crunch skills the game requires, and currently health issues keep me from tasks that require long, sustained concentration. If someone ever asked me to contribute to such an effort I could write up histories and background for characters and help write/edit instructional sections. A look at my past posts show I’m still pretty good at putting together this kind of material.
    I am willing to put my money where my Grand Canyon sized mouth is but someone else would have to take the lead on any project. Just let me know what’s needed.

Out of rep at the moment, 
 
but I agree: a GURPS-style "lite" model can't work so well for HERO because-- well, let's face it:  the system is all there is.
 
And at the risk of going over a path so well-worn that it threatens to become a gorge, a simple "intro to HERO" could include a small number of pregen characters (of whatever genre), the builds completely hidden, and rules on how to use what's on those sheets, and of course: combat and skill checks.
 
An appendix that breaks the builds down-- only those presented, and I'd suggest simple builds to keep it attractive-- and a map or two, each with a scenario, preferably that could be chained together into a short adventure.
 
That's probably the biggest reason I push for "one thin book" models of HERO: you don't have to display the builds, etc, in all their meticulous glory, for an intro product.  You're after the delivery of that first crack rock; they don't need the details of your supply chain until they are ready to set up their own, and history has demonstrated that dumping the whole chain on them and declaring "now put it together" has had less-than-desirable results.
 
 

I am working on Champions Lite. It is deliberately missing many elements of the Hero System (Adjustment Powers, Mental Powers, many Modifiers, Vehicles, many skills, etc), but the intent is that every Lite character will be mostly viable in a standard Champions game of the same power level. It will contain basic character templates, sample characters (built from the templates), and a short adventure.
 
The plan is that it will give potential players a free taste of the Hero System's potential, but also encourage them to upgrade to the full version.

Where's the love for Prince Humperdink?
 

I guess you didn't catch any of the preceding:
 
 
 
 

Yeesh, it was his day off, can't we give him a break?

Lobo and Deadpool. Or better yet, the two of them can punch each other in the face... for eternity.  😡

Oh, please let me watch. I loathe those characters.
 
(Not meant as criticism of people who like them. Well, okay, I guess it is.)

Yeah, i never quite grasped the Deadpool fandom.

Why did character and villain write-ups get so much longer from 4th to 6 th...and can they be simplified without much trouble?

I started with 1st edition, actually, but I noticed that in 6th edition rulebooks and supplements, villain and other write-ups can take up two or three pages, whereas in the Olympians book, even Zeus (1100 points) can be explained on a single page?  Is the amount of detail necessary?  Can 6th edition characters be written up without that much detail?  

Back by popular demand! This file, which is also available for free from the Hero Games Online Store, contains all the errata known to me as of today.
 
If you find an errata in the core rulebook which isn't listed here, please PM me to inform me about it. Please don't post it here, because I may not see it. Sending it to me directly ensures that I won't overlook it.
6E Errata 2020-02-09.pdf

Is it ethically wrong to work your character in a way that takes the most advantage of the system? I'm not talking about spending 1 point to mega scale kill a planet, I mean Like spiderman having a IIF for his multipower webs with tons of charges? Is it wrong to use the system to avoid endurance costs and getting a discount on his MP with something that only rarely comes up ? 
 
In my case my DM asked me if getting screeching ( reach weapon) while being invisible was gaming the system or not. I felt it was not, but as I'm the guy planning on it, maybe I'm biased. This character would by no means be unbalanced for the table. Other players would for example have area attacks, or extra senses that would allow them to ignore my invisibility...So I assume our opponents would also have equal access. What do you guys think?

Exactly

Yeah to me powergaming is an attitude and approach more than gritty numbers and definitions.  They're out to break the system and dominate, not to have fun or build an efficient character.  I know a guy who without meaning to always found the most efficient and best way to build something in a game.  He just had the knack for it even with games he just learned about.  It wasn't an attempt to pwn the game, he just managed to do well building characters.  If he played Skyrim, he'd build a stealth bow sniper.  He's not a powergamer, because he doesn't build to dominate or break the game, or "win" he just likes to build characters well.

I thought the definition was; if I do it , it’s fine. If the GM does it and it’s used against me then it’s Powergaming! 😁

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Building inefficient characters is a mortal sin.  It offends the gods of Champions.

Theres no way Im going to read thru the 5 gazillion posts on this thread -- I gave up after the 20th or so
 
However, in the interests of responding to the original question, and all heavily IMO:
 
I like to use ECs for characters that have 1 basic "POWER" -- and I mean a Power in the comic book sense rather than the Hero Games sense -- like Fire Control, or Force Field Generation, or Telekinesis, with many different "stunts" conceivably usable concurrently -- like Flight, FF, EB etc.
 
The HERO System classifies each "stunt" as 1 or more Power Constructs, but conceptually all of the EC slots stem from 1 actual "Power". If you take down one Power Construct with an adjustment, you are in effect taking down their 1 big Power and all the Power Constructs attached to it. Thus the EC adjustment double jeopardy.
 
Mechanically, Im not real happy about the obvious illogic of Armor not being a legal slot while 0 END FF is at the same point cost, (although Armor is also Persistent and Invisible, and thus obviously superior aside from the fact that many NND's define FF as a defense), but Im not so unhappy that I worry about it
 
Another big plus to an EC is that unlike VPPs and MPs which are Active Point sensitive, EC powers have no upper end AP issues. In fact, you have a direct motivation to have all the slots in the EC to have a certain AP level as the point rebate is a halving of the lowest AP in the EC. In campaigns with AP caps this isnt noticable so much, but in campaigns without AP caps, a character with an EC can be quite powerful. What a MPP character gets in expandibility and flexibility, the EC character makes up for with well-roundedness.
 
As a complete aside I think its interesting that arguments aside, when looked at as a whole, characters based on all 3 frameworks and without can compete with each other at the same point level, based more upon the design skills of the characters creator than the strengths or weaknesses of the frameworks themselves. IME, of course YMMV

The Key thing to remember is that with a Mulltipower you have one power, EC you have one special effect
 
With an EC I can activate a Force Field, Fly, and Energy Blast at full effect the whole day long (Back in the day probably about 10 end a phase)
 
If I have a MP I have the pool and as I weaken my blast to raise my flight, my end stays the same
 
Example: So let's say I have 100 points for powers
 
25 Light EC 
25 25/25 Force Field  (5)
25 25" Flight               (5)
25 10d6 EB                 (5)
Total END                   15
 
70  Light Manipulation MP
10m 25/25 Force Field  (5)
10m 25 25" Flight               (5)
10m 25 10d6 EB                 (5)
Total END                             7 (As no more than 70 Active Points can be used)
 

I have to wonder if 2e hadn't changed things if we'd even be having this discussion.  😕
 
The original 1e Elemental Control:
 
Create a Reserve (the listed example was 60 pts; we'll run with that for now).
 
Pick _three_ powers (mandatory) that operate at at 1/2 the reserve level (30 pts).  Note that since the text states that the AP doesn't have to be the same for the three powers, we are safe to assume that the whole thing is working with Real Cost (RP).  Powers can be modified individually; only Endurance modifiers can be applied to the Reserve (and they will affect all powers in the EC)
 
So you've got kind of a "buy two, get one free" sort of thing going on right off the bat.  I've got 90 pts of unmodified powers for 60 pts.  That's equivalent to a .... what?  -1/2 Limitation?
 
Let's do it with a Multipower:
 
Control Cost: 30
Power 1:  5 pts
Power 2: 5 pts
Power 3: 5 pts
 
For a total of 55 pts.
 
The difference?  If my END allows it, I can use all three EC powers at full STR; my MP is on a sliding scale (related digression:  suggesting that Multiform is more suitable for most of the late-model Adjustment Powers problems that were assigned to EC than EC actually is: MP appears to be based on the idea of one source of power that gets shifted and re-allocated than EC does.  However, that's one lunatic's opinion, and not a popular one).
 
I intentionally did not go with Ultras (which would re-value the MP at 33 pts vs the EC's 60) because you can't use "all the power" in all the powers....
 
_unless_ you've capped these powers lower than the Control allows, of course.  I think we can all agree that it's a bit foolish, at least early-on, because you end up with things like:
 
Control: 90
Ultra Power 1 capped at 30: 3
Ultra Power 2 capped at 30: 3
Ultra Power 2 capped at 30: 3
 
Obviously, it's just cheaper to buy the 90 points of Powers for 90 pts instead of 99.
 
But you can cap them at 40.  That still let's you use the MP, all three powers at once, even, and two at max; one at at 10 pts.  That costs you 102 points, but you're still only getting, at best, 90 pts worth of Powers in play.
 
 
It's when you start adding the other stuff into an MP-- remember the old "Movement Multipower?"
 
Control: 40
Flight Ultra: 4
Running Ultra: 4
Swimming Ultra: 4
 
You truly have no Limitation here (unless a player manages to sneak "lock out" past you, of course), since you're not going to fly and swim at the same time.  (Take a look at "useable as another form of movement" if you're one of the "I shout down Movement Multipowers every time I see them!" crowd.  They are alive and well, and are now an officially-endorsed Power Advantage.  Not a whole lot more expensive, either.)
 
Anyway, you have 120 pts of movement powers for 54 pts.  That's just the tiniest hair under a -1.5 Limitation.  Versus doing it with an EC, with its massive giveaway of the -1/2 Limitation value.
 
You might have seen Movement Multipowers back in the day, but you never saw a Movement Elemental Control from anyone who could do math.  Why is that?  Obviously, because Elemental Controls were the bomb for freebies.  Or, in this case, totally bombed at Movement.
 
There were two places where ECs _rocked_:  You had three really, really big powers (and lots of END)-- possibly even four, if you didn't want and skills, levels, or too many boosted Characteristics, _or_ you wanted a pile of little tiny parlor tricks.
 
Why?
 
Because the big "bonus" came after the third purchase.  Sure, the -1/2 for deciding to play a "theme" character was nice (and hey-- other than Superman fans, who doesn't like a Theme Character?.  You know what?  I liked the Sony Spiderman better than all other versions of Spiderman for one simple reason:  the webs were his own power.  It kept to the "Spider Powers" theme better than the mechanical web makers.  Yeah; they were on-theme, but it just felt more right.  Again: single lone lunatic.  Sue me for an opinion).
 
Anyway, after you bought the first three powers with the equivalent of a -1/2 Limitation for 2/3 their normal price, then you got into the good stuff:
 
Your fourth and subsequent powers were at 1/5 the cost!  _Massive_ discount, since today you'd either have to load up on Limitations (to the tune of -4, if you were wondering) _or_ do a book-legal Multiform.  You know:  Don't worry!  Captain Statsoveight will save you!   Using his power-- Instant Change, purchased with the rebate he got lowering his Characteristics by two points each (he spent the balance on a professional skill or two)-- Captain Statsoveight becomes the super-mighty Element Man, into which all his free points and his Disadplication profits were poured, and rushes off to save the day! 
 
This is even easier, now that the most expensive character doesn't have to be the full-price character.
 
Take that Element Man form, load it up with a Mutlipower or two, and you can really see why Elemental Control was so horrible.  It just reeks of points shaving and cost-cutting and powergaming and whatever else is so clearly unbalancing about it.
 
 
But to get back on track, you really didn't get a huge bonus for having an EC until your forth power (originally; remember that 2e simplified it a bit:  First Power was full price; all others were half-price.  It kept the stipulation that you had to pay the same points for each power, so even if you found a way to shave the cost further, you were obligated to buy more.  The end result is, particularly with the 1e version, you _either_ had a small selection of decent powers (smaller than you could fit in a Multipower, in most cases I remember) _or_ you had that terrifying container load of really useless special-circumstance power ("Boy, just _wait_ until that 2d6 Energy Blast is the perfect thing to save the day!").
 
What killed EC wasn't EC: it was the way the game has changed, particularly the "free" points going through the roof and the required Disadplications threshold getting lower and lower.  The fact that to build a seriously powerful one required a buttload of Disadvantages to buy is no longer an issue: _No one_ has to buy a buttload of Disadvantages any more.  No one has to _grow_ a character; they can buy it fully-formed and toss on three Disads to buy some skills and a car.
 
 
And one final thought, going to the "it was so unfair because they got that -1/2 on three whole powers just because they were playing a theme character; what a rip!" mindset:
 
The single, most wonderful thing about EC was _not_ that.  It was that they could use those three powers (or four, possibly five if they were homeless and unemployable) at full value, all the time (assuming END is covered).  _That_ was the wonderful thing.
 
The other "points saving for no real reason" option was Multipower.
 
Multipower and its endless sliding of weights and counterweights to keep a scale balanced.  Every other Phase, six people barking "I make adjustment x to my multipower!" and the GM keeping track of all of it, segment by segment, checking and rechecking to make sure no one screwed up or, if you had your own Davien, that no one was blatantly cheating....
 
You could turn a thirty-minute combat into an entire game session, easily.
 
I'd give Superman an EC bonus for his Super-ventriloquism if it made that crap stop.
 
Anyway, I'm not here to change anyone's mind (which is _good_!  We all know that only works on non-Americans anyway     ).  I've just kept schtum  during all the complaints for decades, and I had to get that off my chest.
 
Just remember that any "horror" you can do with Elemental Control can be done at least two other ways: you _cannot_ accept that "there is more than one way to do anything with HERO!" without accepting that, too.
 
 
Peace, my friends!
 

 
 
 
 
 

Skorts is the word you're seeking.
 

Truth