ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For all those who keep asking for it: there are already rules for Segmented Movement in print. See APG 160. It's certainly possible there's more that could be said, or different ways things could be done, but that's all I intend to write about the subject.

[Steve Long]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about different hit location charts for different creature types and/or different size targets?

 

Already exist in the HSB; have been available for years. If you want some odd-shaped thing that's not covered by what's in the HSB, I leave the creation of said table as an exercise for the student.

 

Those tables don't really go into size or what have you, but I don't really think that's needed.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to add my vote for mental martial arts.

What exaclty do you want? The only thing you would need with mental attacks (all those "mind" powers) would be block. All other martial Maneuvers can be copied with Telekinesis-Attacks.

[Steve]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What exaclty do you want? The only thing you would need with mental attacks (all those "mind" powers) would be block. All other martial Maneuvers can be copied with Telekinesis-Attacks.

 

They existed in the Ultimate Mentalist for 5th edition. I'd like to see some discussion of them for 6th and brought forward into the current edition.

[megaplayboy]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I like the idea of a Reality Alteration power, perhaps with limited subsets like "Alter Time" or "reshape matter", etc. This seems more like a Power Framework to me, but perhaps the writeup could expand a bit or make trickier effects simpler to effect. Alternatively, it could be a variant of Transform.

Super-skills and extreme skill penalties--some examples of what you could do with a super-skill(breakfall, stealth, oratory, charm, computer programming, deduction might all be good examples).

Optional characteristics, as mentioned up thread: GRACE(for social situations), SAN, MANA, etc.

Mentalist Martial Arts, priced appropriately

Diceless options for Hero. Also, ways to resolve powers that involve large amounts of dice, without having to roll large amounts of dice(most dice box sets don't exceed 36 dice).

A simplified version of multi-stat AID called "Power Up".

The blowing up big stuff sections sounds like a keeper to me, as does the extended STR chart. IIRC, the mass of the universe is somewhere in the 800s. It'd be nice to know the BODY stats of large objects like mountains, asteroids, moons, planets and stars, not just for purposes of destruction, but also for things like Transform and Healing.

Speed Zone, Mind Zone, Macroverse/Microverse...bring these back, please.

Perhaps an extension on the "stat ranges" chart to reflect "superhuman", "godlike" and "cosmic" stats, or just some verbiage indicating what, for example, a 100 INT or PRE might actually represent. (This could include some discussion of "minor benefits" of such stats, which don't cost extra points or alternatively can be had at a discount under the "Unified Power" limitation). What are the stat ranges for Striking Appearance?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For all those who keep asking for it: there are already rules for Segmented Movement in print. See APG 160. It's certainly possible there's more that could be said' date=' or different ways things could be done, but that's all I intend to write about the subject. [/quote']

 

Hey, could somebody pass me a towel? I seem to have some egg on my face.

[brionl]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

7. Maybe reprint/update the Speed Zone from Ultimate Speedster. That's worth keeping in print, even if only as a theoretical exercise.

 

Other people have mentioned the mental zone from Ultimate Mentalist, and there are also the micro-zone and macro-zone from Ultimate Metamorph.

 

Not to mention the Danger Zone from Ultimate Kenny Loggins.

 

If you left out all of the "X energy has no special interaction with Y special effect" entries you could probably fit all the energy types from Ultimate Energy Projector into a half-dozen pages.

[Steve Long]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If you left out all of the "X energy has no special interaction with Y special effect" entries you could probably fit all the energy types from Ultimate Energy Projector into a half-dozen pages.

 

I've actually thought about including all those interaction rules in an APG (if not this one, then some theoretical later one, or similar book), though I think I would want to tweak 'em a bit. They're good but could be better I think. Anyhow it's something to ponder upon.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Other people have mentioned the mental zone from Ultimate Mentalist' date=' and there are also the micro-zone and macro-zone from Ultimate Metamorph.[/quote']One of the Zones I've proposed is the Light Zone, for light-based energy projectors. I suppose one could also have an Electric Zone, or a large number of Zones (however many the GM wants).

 

What I'm getting at is that Zone Travel should be generic, with properties determined by the nature of the Zone. In the Speed Zone one can do things to the regular world; in the Mind Zone, generally one cannot. In the Light Zone, one's interaction would be limited to light-based attacks (blasts, lasers, Sight Group Flashes, and similar effects).

 

Not to mention the Danger Zone from Ultimate Kenny Loggins.

And now we're entering the Twilight Zone. Or the No Parking Zone. (As long as it isn't the Korta Zone.)

[dmjalund]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

And now we're entering the Twilight Zone. Or the No Parking Zone. (As long as it isn't the Korta Zone.)

or THE Zone, where skills suddenly become easier.

[Steve]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In the social combat rules, would it be possible to present some sort of mechanics for social standing within an organization like a royal court or a government agency? I'm thinking of the Brownie Point rules from the the old Super Agents supplement written by Mr. Alston for 3rd edition Champions. Brownie Points would make for a nice way to keep track of how the higher ups (the King, the Agency Director, etc) feel about the character. I'd like to see this.

[Armitage]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I realize it's somewhat of a bugaboo, but I would love to see an alternate system for creating light. The current system using Images seems problematic, particularly in a fantasy setting where, for example, a character's "Rank" determines the maximum Active Points of his spells.

It's often depicted that creating light equal to a torch is something the lowliest novice wizard can do, but recreating a torch using Images costs 27 Active Points, costing END every Phase. Making the light self sustaining with Reduced Endurance or Time Limit increases the cost even more, until it's comparable in cost to an attack spell that can leave an average human dying with one shot. The Only To Create Light Limitation works fine for the Real Points, but the Active Point cost seems too high for the effect.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I realize it's somewhat of a bugaboo, but I would love to see an alternate system for creating light. The current system using Images seems problematic, particularly in a fantasy setting where, for example, a character's "Rank" determines the maximum Active Points of his spells.

It's often depicted that creating light equal to a torch is something the lowliest novice wizard can do, but recreating a torch using Images costs 27 Active Points, costing END every Phase. Making the light self sustaining with Reduced Endurance or Time Limit increases the cost even more, until it's comparable in cost to an attack spell that can leave an average human dying with one shot. The Only To Create Light Limitation works fine for the Real Points, but the Active Point cost seems too high for the effect.

It might qualify for the Perceivable Limitation, seeing as anybody within several miles will likely know where you are on a dark night.

[DreadDomain]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

1. Social Combat rules: A section discussing rules for modeling various forms of competitive social interaction with rules, just like physical and mental combat are modeled. Rather than presenting a "one true way," I'm going to discuss the general considerations you should take into account if you want to use Social Combat in your campaign, and then present two or three different systems for Social Combat. Thus you can pick to preference, or "roll your own."

 

8. Possibly some rules that rejigger the Skill system to work more like combat, with an "OCV" versus a "DCV." This has been mentioned here and there (in one of the Toolkitting notes in 6E1, IIRC) and is in my notes from when I was working on 6E. Not sure if it's worth pursuing but I am at least considering it.

 

These two will make me buy the book as soon as the bundle is available. I see a few benefits for using CHAR/3 + Skills versus CHAR/+ Skill (or versus a DV) like offering more breakpoint to the characteristics (every 3 instead of every 5) and obviously unifying the mechanics. I'd also like to have some thoughts about dropping the CVs altogether and getting combat on CHAR/3 basis as well.

 

Social combat is long overdue for HERO and I'd like to see :

1. Social Maneuvers
   
2. New characteristics to support Social combat like Offensive and Defensive Social Combat Value and Social Defense
   
3. Ways of avoidind adding more characteristics to support social combat like folding it in with mental combat in a replacement CV (Offensive and Defensive Influence Value?) at 5 points per +1
   
4. Also an integration Of Presence Attacks in social combat. I always thought damage should be based on PRE for social combat and that Presence Attack (as we know them and taking no time) should only use casual PRE.
   
5. Social Combat using only Interaction skills instead of CV (would mesh out well with the point made above about dropping CVs)
   
6. Interaction with reputation, wealth and status
   
7. I'd also like to see a worked out Personality / Passion system à la Pendragon. This would mesh nicely with Social Combat.
   

 

While we are at it, I'd like to see the return of Mental Maneuvers.

 

2. Advanced rules for Foci, allowing you to vary their durability, size, and so on.

 

3. Rules for giving powers or gadgets their own DEX, SPD, etc. so that you can model Omega Beams, homing missiles, and what-all without having to write them up as full character sheets and buy 'em as Followers.

 

4. Expansions of the STR Chart (so you'll know what you can lift with 400 STR!) and Adding Damage tables, etc. I have whipped up things like this for my own occasional use, so I might as well let you use 'em too.

 

5. Discussion of, and suggested rules for, destroying Really Big Objects -- mountains, asteroids, planets, ringworlds, stars....

 

6. I am considering putting in some optional variant rules for "Time Stop" and "Time Replay" type powers (possibly expanding them into some sort of general "Reality Alteration" power). I am going to end up doing something like that for Time Travel Hero anyway, so might as well get it done early.

 

7. Maybe reprint/update the Speed Zone from Ultimate Speedster. That's worth keeping in print, even if only as a theoretical exercise.

 

9. Possibly a new optional take on Regeneration.

 

I see potential in all of these even though I do not have as much interest in them as for the two above. I am glad to see the Speed Zone making a come back but please don't forget the other "zones", like the Mind Zone, in your treatment.

[The Main Man]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Rules for modifying the Recoveries chart (ie instead of 0 to -9' date=' 10 to -19, 20 to -29, -30 or worse, allowing a character to purchase or sell back increments - so this character gets REC every phase at 0 - -14 STUN, 1/turn at -15 to -29, and 1/minute at -30 to -44, GM option at -45 or lower). The danger is combat that goes on forever - characters that are impossible to keep down. But the benefit is being able to design characters who are - you guessed it - harder to keep down.[/quote']

I had a house rule that used CON to determine a character's Recovery rate. May as well lay it out here:

 

Standard Rules:

1. Characters start with CON 10 for free.

2. Characters may take Recoveries every Phase they are knocked out down to -10 STUN.

3. Every -10 STUN moves said Recovery rate one step down the time chart.

 

My House Rule:

1. The negative end of a character's CON -1 determines the break point for shifting one step down the time chart.{ [-1 (CON +1)]= X}

2. Every -10 STUN moves said Recovery rate one step down the time chart.

 

Examples:

1. Normalman has 10 CON, so he may take Recoveries every Phase he is knocked out down to [-1 (CON 20 +1)] = -11 STUN. Every -10 STUN lowers this down the Time Chart.

 

2. Steelman has 20 CON, so he may take Recoveries every Phase he is knocked out down to [-1 (CON 20 +1)] = -21 STUN. Every -10 STUN lowers this down the Time Chart.

 

3. Kleenexwoman has 5 CON, so she may take Recoveries every Phase she is knocked out down to [-1 (CON 5 +1)] = -6 STUN. Every -10 STUN lowers this down the Time Chart.

A possible additional or alternate rule: What if CON determined the subtractor that lowers the Recovery Rate down the Time Chart?

 

Examples:

1. Normalman has 10 CON, so every -10 STUN lowers his Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

 

2. Steelman has 20 CON, so every -20 STUN lowers his Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

 

3. Kleenexwoman has 5 CON, so every -5 STUN lowers her Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

I think that both of those could be neat, but used together would make some damn hardy characters and would probably be cause to raise the cost of CON to 2pts.

[The Main Man]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As for other thoughts, I second the notion to reprint the Mental Combat Maneuvers from TUM.

 

If the SFX interaction rules are reprinted, maybe save some space by listing SFX that do not meaningfully interact instead of writing out every entry to pad the book.

 

As Hugh Nielsen commented some time ago, maybe some expanded rules for combining Combat Maneuvers? I always thought that Move Through and Move By already naturally add to other Combat Maneuvers rather fluidly. For examle, Grab By is easily disassembled to its individual parts of Grab and Move-By.

 

For Foci, maybe introduce BODY as a characteristic? Perhaps BODY is Active Points/20 for normal Foci, while Durable Foci have a BODY of Active Points/10? Or could there be ranges that can raise or lower the value?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I had a house rule that used CON to determine a character's Recovery rate. May as well lay it out here:

]A possible additional or alternate rule: What if CON determined the subtractor that lowers the Recovery Rate down the Time Chart?

 

Examples:

1. Normalman has 10 CON, so every -10 STUN lowers his Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

 

2. Steelman has 20 CON, so every -20 STUN lowers his Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

 

3. Kleenexwoman has 5 CON, so every -5 STUN lowers her Recovery rate down the Time Chart.

I think that both of those could be neat, but used together would make some damn hardy characters and would probably be cause to raise the cost of CON to 2pts.

 

Or we could just price the subtractor stat separately at 1 point.

 

As for other thoughts' date=' I second the notion to reprint the Mental Combat Maneuvers from TUM.[/quote']

 

Nitpick, but let's not just reprint them if they can be enhanced. Given solcial combat will also be in the book, maneuvers for social combat will presumably also appear.

 

As Hugh Nielsen commented some time ago' date=' maybe some expanded rules for combining Combat Maneuvers? I always thought that Move Through and Move By already naturally add to other Combat Maneuvers rather fluidly. For examle, Grab By is easily disassembled to its individual parts of Grab and Move-By.[/quote']

 

Those are the obvious ones to merge. For that matter, why can't I Move By three thugs and Move Through the boss at the end?

 

Between social combat, requests for mental combat maneuvers and the suggestion of basing physical combat on skills, what about folding this all into a discussion of alternative success/failure resolution? We presently have a very granular physical combat system, a somewhat less granular mental combat system, and other tasks resolved wth minimal granularity by a single roll, opposed or not. These are largely based on the expectation most games will focus a lot on physical combat, so we go action by action, blow by blow, through combat, but we can resolve a trial, medical treatment or a social situation in more abstract fashion with a single opposed roll.

 

But, if my game is based around intrigue at the political level, suddenly social conflict takes a much more central role, so I haul out those APG II social conflict rules. Physical combat is far less important, so perhaps it gets relegated to a skill vs skill roll (Dueling, Brawling, Fencing, what have you) rather than being played out in detail.

 

If I want to play a courtroom drama type game, social conflict remains pretty important, but I'll want special maneuvers influenced by legal knowledge, expertise with court procedures, etc. As well, where PS: Law pretty much did the trick in both my Superheroes and Royal Court games, now I want to break that down into specialized legal PS and KS to provide a wider variety (or maybe Legal Skill Levels replace Combat Skill Levels, since combat is just another skill roll - so one lawyer may have +3 levels with Law overall for 30 points, and another might have +10 levels with Criminal Law Court Procedures for the same 30 points - "All Law" vs "Tight Group").

 

I'd suggest an overall discussion, various "naked mechanics", and the examples of relegating combat to skill vs skill, and the several social skill methodologies proposed in Steve's original post. Any other detailed resolution systems can wait for APG III, which will give some time for demand to rise.

[dsatow]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Oh, that reminds me, something I haven't seen since Robot Warriors.

 

I would love to see the Officer Ranks system again for going up in military ranks.

 

Maybe even something similar for something like Media Star in this day and age. Going from local hero to internet phenom to world class famous figure. Again, just an idea.

[The Main Man]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Nitpick' date=' but let's not just reprint them if they can be enhanced. Given solcial combat will also be in the book, maneuvers for social combat will presumably also appear.[/quote']

I'm for either (reprint or expansion).

 

Those are the obvious ones to merge. For that matter, why can't I Move By three thugs and Move Through the boss at the end?

Agreed. And using Multiple Move Bys is just combining Multiple Attack with Move-By. Then there's barrelling through opponents - Move Through + Multiple Attack? I'd like to think so.

 

Between social combat, requests for mental combat maneuvers and the suggestion of basing physical combat on skills, what about folding this all into a discussion of alternative success/failure resolution? We presently have a very granular physical combat system, a somewhat less granular mental combat system, and other tasks resolved wth minimal granularity by a single roll, opposed or not. These are largely based on the expectation most games will focus a lot on physical combat, so we go action by action, blow by blow, through combat, but we can resolve a trial, medical treatment or a social situation in more abstract fashion with a single opposed roll.

 

But, if my game is based around intrigue at the political level, suddenly social conflict takes a much more central role, so I haul out those APG II social conflict rules. Physical combat is far less important, so perhaps it gets relegated to a skill vs skill roll (Dueling, Brawling, Fencing, what have you) rather than being played out in detail.

 

If I want to play a courtroom drama type game, social conflict remains pretty important, but I'll want special maneuvers influenced by legal knowledge, expertise with court procedures, etc. As well, where PS: Law pretty much did the trick in both my Superheroes and Royal Court games, now I want to break that down into specialized legal PS and KS to provide a wider variety (or maybe Legal Skill Levels replace Combat Skill Levels, since combat is just another skill roll - so one lawyer may have +3 levels with Law overall for 30 points, and another might have +10 levels with Criminal Law Court Procedures for the same 30 points - "All Law" vs "Tight Group").

 

I'd suggest an overall discussion, various "naked mechanics", and the examples of relegating combat to skill vs skill, and the several social skill methodologies proposed in Steve's original post. Any other detailed resolution systems can wait for APG III, which will give some time for demand to rise.

Interesting suggestion if I say so myself. That would probe deeper behind the HERO curtain than ever before AFAIK, yet would I be wrong in concluding that that would be perfectly within the spirit of HERO?

 

==========================================================================================

What if there was a big list of Conditional Power and Limited Power examples for each value?

 

What if Conditional Power and Limited Power could be used as a catch-all Power "sub-Modifier" that lowers Advantage values but raises Limitation values (since the Limitation itself is Conditional/Limited - double negative)?

==========================================================================================

Maybe some new Talents? How about updated writeups for Digital HERO's "A Fistful of Talents" and "A Few Talents More?"

[dmjalund]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I have an alternative interpretation for SPEED that shoudl work for more Heroic games.

 

each 1/2 phase takes one second. so ones combat move is how manymeters you can move in 2 1/2 phase seconds.

 

Speed is a measure of combat readiness. So someone of SPD 2 spends 2 seconds in useful action and 4 seconds figuring out what to do.

 

using this interpretation, the maximum SPD would be 6.

 

This would indicate a recalculation of non-combat speed (SPD 2 chars would be x3, SPD 4 => x2, SPD 6 => x1)

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Simpler rules for summoning vehicles or inanimate objects:

Currently these kinds of powers are very hard to build right, mostly because tasks for inanimate objects aren't very well defined and basing the number of them on the object's EGO is hard to do since often they don't have any EGO at all. Also, summoning the same vehicle/object each time is usually more disadvantaged than summoning a different one of the same type every time, but Specific Being (+1) is required in order to do so.

 

Segmented movement for vehicles:

The current interaction between a vehicles speed and its drivers speed is very cumbersome and often doesn't make any sense. Switching vehicles to segmented movement would solve this issue nicely.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Segmented movement for vehicles:

The current interaction between a vehicles speed and its drivers speed is very cumbersome and often doesn't make any sense. Switching vehicles to segmented movement would solve this issue nicely.

 

For all those who keep asking for it: there are already rules for Segmented Movement in print. See APG 160. It's certainly possible there's more that could be said' date=' or different ways things could be done, but that's all I intend to write about the subject. [/quote']

 

Tasks for Cars: Simple, unlimited. No ego Roll means every point counts, a task is at least a day and the summoner can reroll as often as he lives (okay, almost). Or you just skip the roll, after all a car can't act on its own like a demon (if it can, buy it as a normal "Summon KITT").

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How did I miss that post? I could have sworn that I read the entire thread before posting.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Tasks for Cars: Simple' date=' unlimited. No ego Roll means every point counts, a task is at least a day and the summoner can reroll as often as he lives (okay, almost). Or you just skip the roll, after all a car can't act on its own like a demon (if it can, buy it as a normal "Summon KITT").

 

I believe the official ruling is that a vehicle, automaton, etc. which does not act under its own volition must be purchased as "slavishly loyal" when Summoned. Assuming this is still correct, a discussion of tasks for such entities without using the Slavishly... modifier seems reasonable,

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I believe the official ruling is that a vehicle' date=' automaton, etc. which does not act under its own volition must be purchased as "slavishly loyal" when Summoned. Assuming this is still correct, a discussion of tasks for such entities without using the Slavishly... modifier seems reasonable,[/quote']

The rule you describe is for "Inanimate Objects" only. And with slavishly loyal and the fact that they don't even have regular actions (i.e. no will to use any of it's powers), I think it is reseonable to just ignore tasks for them.

A automaton is very much animated so it is a absolutely normal summom, with all the rules for tasks, ego rolls and so on. No matter if it's one of Mechanons Summoned Robots, a zombie or autopiloted car.