Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[mattingly]

1. Moon Knight

2. Hawkeye

3. Loki

4. Miss Marvel

5. She-Hulk

6. WandaVision

7. Falcon and the Winter Soldier

 

If What If counts, I'd put it at 6.5.

 

[Lord Liaden]

My definite favorite among the D+ series is The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, mainly for two reasons. The first and biggest is its unifying theme: the legacy of Steve Rogers, what he symbolized and what he believed in. Almost every character in the series was affected by Steve in some way, and all were motivated either to honor his legacy, or to reject or pervert it. The other reason is that more than any of the other series, this one tied up loose ends from the Avengers movies, showing us more of those past characters and how they've moved on, or not, after those events.

[Lord Liaden]

11 hours ago, Bazza said:

WandaVision is likely second, but can anyone excuse or forgive a hero who violates human rights en mass? This kind of thing would be a crime against humanity, and she should be behind bars. DSMOM just made the situation worse.

 

Yes, she should. But she can't be, because no one on Earth has the power to stop her. However, that reflects Wanda's path from the comics, in the "House of M" story line. WandaVision gives us a classic story of a hero's fall into madness and villainy. Like all the best villains we still have sympathy for her, and her path was unquestionably tragic, but it turns her into a monster, and the monster is who we get in DSMOM. Yet I would argue that DSMOM made the situation better, because Wanda ultimately recognized what she'd become, renounced her twisted dream, and paid the ultimate price for her crimes, by her own hand.

[Ternaugh]

I keep on scanning DSMOM as "Dark Side of the Mom", which I guess would fit the storyline of that movie.

[Starlord]

To me, Hawkeye felt the closest to 80s 4 color comic book writing and also Hawkeye's personality was spot on with he'd been written so far in the MCU.  It also maintained a consistent tone throughout and didn't to waffle between trying to be really funny then really serious.  More and more Marvel projects are not succeeding at this.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Ok, let's do this. 

 

1. Loki
2. Hawkeye
3. Falcon and the Winter Soldier
4. Moon Knight
5. WandaVision
6. She-Hulk

Miss Marvel

 

5 & 6 could flip, depending on mood. 

 

[Dr.Device]

1. WandaVision

2. Ms. Marvel (would have been better if they could have stretched it over two more episodes)

3. Loki & She-Hulk

5. Hawkeye 

6. Falcon & the Winter Soldier

7. What If

 

F&WS & What If being at the bottom doesn't mean I didn't like them. I enjoyed them quite a bit. I just enjoyed the others more.

 

I haven't finished Moon Knight. It just doesn't hold my interest.

 

(ETA - On the BG reboot, it was interesting at first, and there wasn't nearly as much good SF on at the time, so I liked it somewhat. I gave up somewhere during the second to last season, though, and never saw the ending som many have complained about)

 

[Bazza]

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

It is odd to me that they have not jumped on the huge success of the last Spider-Man movie and pushed to get another one out.  I guess they had to get the Eternals and She Hulk done first rather than make more money.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

It is odd to me that they have not jumped on the huge success of the last Spider-Man movie and pushed to get another one out.  I guess they had to get the Eternals and She Hulk done first rather than make more money.

 

Spider-Man is still controlled by Sony, and only loaned back for guest appearances. Sony was busy filming and marketing their recent hit Marvel character film featuring Jared Leto.

[Bazza]

Additionally, TH just signed a new deal to continue playing the character. It’s a massive gamble to pay for a new script and put it into production when you are unsure the lead actor & character is in it. 

[slikmar]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

It is odd to me that they have not jumped on the huge success of the last Spider-Man movie and pushed to get another one out.  I guess they had to get the Eternals and She Hulk done first rather than make more money.

I guess I would ask how fast you expect them to get another movie out? No Way Home came out in 2021. so basically only a year ago.

[dmjalund]

10 minutes ago, slikmar said:

I guess I would ask how fast you expect them to get another movie out? No Way Home came out in 2021. so basically only a year ago.

And Mr Holland may want to do other rolls besides Spider-man

[Bazza]

Maybe a sausage roll? 

[Joe Walsh]

Not a bad one in the bunch, IMO.

 

1. Moon Knight

2. WandaVision

3. Loki

4. She-Hulk

5. Hawkeye

6. Miss Marvel

7. Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Starlord]

https://www.superherohype.com/movies/521879-black-adam-and-black-panther-2-probably-wont-get-released-in-china

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well the last poster they sent to China with Black Panther in it put a mask on his face...

[Ranxerox]

I went to see Black Panther: Wakanda Forever yesterday.  Excellent performances by all involved and Ryan Coogler is a heck of a director.  Even though the movie clocks in at over two and a half hours, it doesn't have a wasted minute (though on the dark side that does make finding a time to run to the restroom hard).

 

However, the BP2 isn't one Marvel's action comedies, so if you go to MCU movies expecting to laugh this might not be the movie for you.

 

I am curious to hear what a Namor fan thinks about it.  They make some big changes to the character, but in other things they are surprisingly faithful to the original.

[Bazza]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ranxerox said:

I am curious to hear what a Namor fan thinks about it.  They make some big changes to the character, but in other things they are surprisingly faithful to the original.

When you take an existing character and change his ethnicity and culture to something entirely different, but keep said character’s appearance, can it be the same character? At what point do these changes become drastic? 
 

What if: 
Marvel introduced Steve Rogers not as an Irish Catholic from NY, but a Buddhist Mongol from Mongolia—is he still Steve Rogers?

Translocated Wakanda to Siberia with the Tunguska event the source of the Vibraniumn meteorite? Would a Russian Black Panther be the same character if he was named T’Challa?

Thor is not from Norse mythology, but any other pantheon?

Shang-chi was Greek, practicing pankration?

 

So I think Marvel erred with introducing Namor the way they have; he is Namor in-name-only (in-namor-only?). Remember that Namor is “Roman” backwards. They seem to want the name recognition of Namor the character but wants to ditch his ethnicity and its Western culture milieu in favour of their new character.  I would put it in the same category as Fox’s last FF film, as it called its characters by their comic names and kept their appearance accurate – and I saw it – and liked it as a film, but it wasn’t an FF film. Similarly, the MCU’s Grandmaster doesn’t ‘feel’ like the comics Grandmaster.

[Old Man]

Saw BP:WF last night and it didn't disappoint.  It was a little long, and I was underwhelmed by the reveal of "Atlantis".  But the changes to Namor were brilliant, making him much more relatable and culturally interesting*.  It was great to see the actresses from BP take up the baton so effortlessly.  Angela Bassett was badass as always, but Letitia Wright really knocked it out of the park.  The screenplay was solidly written--we all kind of know how BP:WF needs to turn out with respect to Namor, but there's still enough personal tension to carry the film.  I'm glad Coogler didn't go to jail for bank robbery.

 

There is one mid-credits scene which should not be missed, but that's it--no end credits scene.  Run time is 2:40 (plus trailers, including the one for Quantumania), so begin preparing your bladder now.  Also this film is multilingual--Wakandan, French, "Atlantean", and Spanish as well as American, so if you're not literate enough for subtitles, watch out.

 

 

* And not incidentally differentiating him from another underwater movie super-anti-hero.

[Pattern Ghost]

11 hours ago, Bazza said:

When you take an existing character and change his ethnicity and culture to something entirely different

 

So, you're mad because of the erasure of Atlantean culture? "Imperious rex!" isn't a culture. Marvel Atlantis didn't really have a distinctive culture that I've ever noticed. They're just basing Namor on another culture's version of Atlantis. If they do it well, it's fine IMO. As long as he's got a similar personality and little wings on his feet, I don't care too much, personally.

 

 

11 hours ago, Bazza said:

Similarly, the MCU’s Grandmaster doesn’t ‘feel’ like the comics Grandmaster.

 

Yeah, I think they dropped the ball with the Elders in the MCU. They just don't have the same impact, IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

So I think Marvel erred with introducing Namor the way they have; he is Namor in-name-only (in-namor-only?). Remember that Namor is “Roman” backwards. They seem to want the name recognition of Namor the character but wants to ditch his ethnicity and its Western culture milieu in favour of their new character.

 

I am convinced that they saw Aquaman as a hit and realized that if they used Namor's original background and persona, which DC basically ripped off, they'd seem like they were just copying Aquaman.  So they looked down their diversity slate and picked an ethnic group they wasn't being "included" enough, then turned them all blue and got rid of everything that makes them their ethnic group.  I mean, if they do the king of Atlantis who is a half breed human strong guy from the ocean it sounds like they're just stealing from DC even though Namor came out a while before Aquaman in comics history.

 

Another theory is that there are copyright concerns because Fox owns the Namor from the comics, but I am not certain how accurate that is.

[Starlord]

For me - changing race/ethnicity matters less than personality.  The only exception being if the characters whole background is tied up into a race/culture/ethnicity.  This why you can't significantly change a Thor or a Captain America.

 

Also, how important is the character to each one of us?  I enjoy certain stories about Namor but I'm not overly invested in him.  I dont care if you change Atlantis but I think I would be irritated if you removed Namor's arrogance and self-righteousness.  Those are his key personality traits.

[Lord Liaden]

11 hours ago, Bazza said:

When you take an existing character and change his ethnicity and culture to something entirely different, but keep said character’s appearance, can it be the same character? At what point do these changes become drastic? 
 

 

Keep in mind that the great majority of moviegoers aren't comic readers and will not know who Namor is, so for them, the version they get in this movie will be who they think of whenever Namor comes up.

 

Some of your examples of other character changes are, with respect, misleading. Steve Rogers is a product of America's New Deal and WW II. That particular brand of idealism shapes who he is and what he stands for, and without that background he isn't Captain America. The Black Panther is a symbol of African culture and aspirations, and drawing him from another milieu greatly alters his impact. Namor's Atlantis is a sketchy comic-book background for a particular character, and outside of echoes of literary Atlantis, and the "threat from the sea" trope, has little relevance except as the place Namor comes from. Changing the land's cultural reference to Meso-American doesn't alter that role for Namor, but it does add a dimension rarely seen in comics.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

This why you can't significantly change a Thor or a Captain America.

 

But changing Heimdall, perfectly reasonable!