Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Lord Liaden]

Difficult to relate to? I guess that depends. But superheroes are supposed to be better than the average deeply flawed human being. They represent the best of what humanity can aspire to. Whether most of us will ever achieve that isn't the point -- they make us want to try to do better, and that effort makes the little corner of the world each of us occupies, better.

 

I remember Chris Evans remarking in an interview years ago that when was feeling down or challenged or facing a quandary, he's gotten in the habit of asking himself, "What would Steve Rogers do?"

[zslane]

Agreed. But by not being anything resembling a flawed, average woman, she doesn't represent the (female) viewership much. And clearly representation in film is a major issue for women and minorities right now. In fact, it seems to be the very promise Black Panther is expected to deliver on in a big way. Let's hope that a preternaturally athletic warrior king with access to the mystical energies of his ancestors, an ultra-tech suit of armor, and the full resources of the most technologically advanced nation on (MCU) Earth is something that will help (black) people feel more represented in film. I can't wait to hear what Spike Lee thinks of it...

 

Depending on whose reviews (or tweets) you read, these movies are checking off all the right socially impactful boxes, but I'm not so sure they really are (or will). I think they hit some of them, but not others, and it feels politically incorrect to even dare to burst some of those bubbles.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 I mean, these reports make it sound as though women and girls are having their minds thrown wide open to the idea of empowerment for the first time or something. And if so, I just don't buy it.

 

 

I think its played up because it fits popular sociologist theories but I've seen no evidence of it in any women I've ever known.  But if people enjoy the films, that's good enough for me.  Entertainment.

[Hermit]

Going with Lord Liaden

I've seen the effect, or more accurately I have a friends who have seen it. 

 

One of them works at a College as an Admin and teacher . She also works with sunday school kids too. 

So she's dealing with everything from tiny tykes to college age young women. And they are JAZZED. I mean, really really jazzed. The movie means more to them than being just a really good superhero film. They are actually inspired. Little girls are playing superheroes more than ever because they feel included more. College Age gals are more interested in superhero stuff (And my friend who is no slouch is happy to fill them in). Now I'm not saying that will translate to more comic book sales. But I know some in ten years some of those college age ladies will be looking to their daughters, and using whatever passes for DVDs by then and going "This movie is one of my favorites and I think it will mean a lot to you too"

 

But I might just be a sap.

 

Look, Patty Jenkins set out to make a movie not for women but just a damn good movie about a superhero! But the point is a segment of the female population has taken it to heart. It means something personal to them that it may not to me and I think LL is right on about it. And that's good. It's GREAT!

 

Now here's hoping the Gambit movie is on so I get a little positive Southerner representation... oh wait, he's a thief and a bit of a jerk. *Sigh* Oh well

[Lord Liaden]

Diana not flawed? She's naive, she's opinionated, she's cocky and stubborn. She gives of herself without reservation, so she gets her heart broken again and again.

 

As for T'challa, from what we've seen so far in the movies he appears to be proud almost to the point of arrogance. But he and his people are African root and branch, and they're great, and they owe nothing to the society of the white man to achieve that greatness. That, I believe, is what will impact black audiences.

[Lord Liaden]

Now here's hoping the Gambit movie is on so I get a little positive Southerner representation... oh wait, he's a thief and a bit of a jerk. *Sigh* Oh well

 

The representation backlog is lengthy, with a lot of entries to check off the list. I'm not sure how high the southern United States is on it, but sadly, I'm sure the recent statuary-related issues didn't move it up.

[Hermit]

The representation backlog is lengthy, with a lot of entries to check off the list. I'm not sure how high the southern United States is on it, but sadly, I'm sure the recent statuary-related issues didn't move it up.

 

 

It's hard, but it could be worse. I could be a Canadia...oh wait, Wolverine. You guys are set.

 

*Sigh*

 

Nah. I'm actually loving everything I'm seeing about the Black Panther movie. And if it has the perk of making folks of African American descent (or for that matter folks IN Africa) inspired and aspiring, hey! Awesome on top of awesome.  

[Lord Liaden]

I hope Marvel has the good sense to include this in the BP movie score, maybe the end credits:

 

 

[Bazza]

If Diana is inspiring then a await Hollywood biopics of the following : Hatshepsut, Cleopatra, Hypatia, Boudica, Brigid of Kildare, Saint Scholastica, Julian of Norwich*, Clare of Assisi, Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I, Mary Queen of Scots, Catherine of Siena, Marie Curie, Mata Hari, Nancy Wake, etc. Some of which have already have been released. (Edit: forgot women authors.)

 

In short: there are lots of historical women who are empowering and make terrific role models & heroes, without referring to fiction.

 

And if the above list is not enough then "Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls" will give you more.

 

*not a lot of biographic information available IIRC.

[Hermit]

It is my regret that I cannot bring Maureen O'Hara from her prime in the past to play the starring role in a Boudica movie with today's resources.

 

An hour and a half of her like that and I'd probably leave the theatre wanting to kill Romans myself

[Lord Liaden]

But how many on that list were genuinely good people?

[Bazza]

It is my regret that I cannot bring Maureen O'Hara from her prime in the past to play the starring role in a Boudica movie with today's resources.

 

An hour and a half of her like that and I'd probably leave the theatre wanting to kill Romans myself

Agree.

[Hermit]

Diana not flawed? She's naive, she's opinionated, she's cocky and stubborn. She gives of herself without reservation, so she gets her heart broken again and again.

 

As for T'challa, from what we've seen so far in the movies he appears to be proud almost to the point of arrogance. But he and his people are African root and branch, and they're great, and they owe nothing to the society of the white man to achieve that greatness. That, I believe, is what will impact black audiences.

 

Yeah, Diana had plenty of flaws imo as well. And she developed as a character beautifully. Arrogant innocence was shattered and in its place grew a more wiser yet still loving resolve.

 

Diana sees that all is not simple, that the people of this world outside her island are flawed and messed up, and she decides they're worth caring about anyway. They're worth fighting for anyway.  She doesn't become Jaded and bitter, rather she realizes that the fact they try so hard to rise above their worst makes them even more precious.

 

And yes, she'll give too much of herself again and again.

[Bazza]

 

But how many on that list were genuinely good people?

Good question. Some on my list were fighting for their country/nation/people and did so with admittedly greyish political reasons.

 

Hatshepsut Is the first major women Pharoh of Egypt. Look at her mortuary complex for the sheer magnificence of what she accomplished as pharaoh. She also led an trade expedition to Puut to expand Egypt's resources IIRC.

 

Cleopatra seduced Roman generals to ensure independence for Egypt. She also got rid of her siblings. She is also the heir of the cultural Egypt tradition stretching back milliennia.

 

Hypatia was a recognised pagan Alexandrian scholar, and teacher. She was a Neoplatonist, as well as wrote books on the sciences (mathematics, and likely astronomy as well. IIRC). It is clear from her students* testimonials that they regarded her in high esteem, the equivalent of a 'pagan saint'. *one who converted to Christianity and became Bishop of Caesarea.

 

Boudica led her people in revolt and killed Romans.

 

Joan of Arc likewise led her people and killed in battle.

 

Brigid of Kildare, Scholastica, Julian of Norwich*, Clare of Assisi, Joan of Arc, and Catherine of Siena are all saints.

 

Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots fought tooth and nail against each other for the English crown. The Elizabethan Renaissance is named after Elizabeth I who fought the Spanish Amarda and triumphed.

 

Marie Curie was radiant, a pioneering scientist who won the Nobel Prize, twice, in two seperate fields, physics & chemistry. Her award in physics, Marie made her the first woman to win the Nobel Prize.

 

Mata Hari, a double agent, and the original femme fatale.

 

Nancy Wake was a spy and resistance fighter. She fought Nazis.

[Lord Liaden]

I recognized all of them. I'm not saying they weren't great, that they aren't worthy of a cinematic biography. As you pointed out, several of them already have one or more.

 

But you have to keep in mind that Diana of Themiscyra, and T'challa of Wakanda, aren't just people, even just great people. They're Wonder Woman and the Black Panther. They're superheroes, and superheroes are living symbols. With their code-names, their costumes, their abilities, the principles they stand for, they are the immediately recognizable, larger-than-life embodiment of ideas. They impact people on an emotional level, in a way most real people, even exceptional ones, can't.

[Bazza]

Good points LL. I didn't consider the filmic embodiment of an ideal. After wasting the video you posted with a slideshow of tweets this point becomes obvious.

 

And I'm with you that the Black community will similarly embrace Black Panther. Well I hope they do.

 

 

However I do wonder from time to time if people embodying ideals & acting as living symbols can survive in a postmodern society. It seems that the very universal ideals like heroism, truth & justice are being denied by the postmodernists. But that is a discussion for another day, or tomorrow.

[zslane]

I think there is a wide gulf between not being absolutely perfect (e.g., Diana Prince) and being seriously flawed with lots of baggage (e.g., Sarah Connor). So wide that just because Diana isn't perfect doesn't mean she is "flawed", at least not in the sense that James Cameron was talking about. Diana Prince does not suffer from any kind of inner trauma the way Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, or Jessica Jones do. Diana has some growing and experiencing to do, but she is hardly flawed by any stretch of the imagination, not unless you want to expand the definition of flawed beyond a useful point of differentiation.

 

Like I said, I get why Wonder Woman is inspirational, and even aspirational. But there's no way any woman could relate to her, as in be able to say to herself, "Yeah, she's just like me and has had so many of the same experiences I did!" any more than 99.99% of men could say the same thing about Thor. These characters are fun to watch, they get us excited when they fight for a righteous cause, but demi-god superheroes are not even remotely relatable.

 

I think it is a very different thing for a movie to make a segment of viewers squee over a sentiment like, "They made this movie just for me," which Patty Jenkins' movie clearly has. That's a very meta observation that has nothing to do with Diana's character per se, or her impact on viewers. The WW movie is certainly a minor victory in the ongoing war to include everyone (girls in this case) in the power-fantasy wish-fulfillment experience of superhero films, but I'd like to see it have lasting positive impact (on Hollywood's movie slate) in that regard before I get too excited about it. That war is far from won, and I just feel that all the celebrating and glad-handing over it is a bit premature.

[Lord Liaden]

I'd take James Cameron's comments with several grains of salt. I smell more than a whiff of sour grapes that people are embracing Wonder Woman and not still fawning over the women from his past movies.

[Starlord]

 But he and his people are African root and branch, and they're great, and they owe nothing to the society of the white man to achieve that greatness.

 

This.  This is the sentiment I've heard echoed most from my black friends, and from some folks online.

 

 

[Starlord]

I think there is a wide gulf between not being absolutely perfect (e.g., Diana Prince) and being seriously flawed with lots of baggage (e.g., Sarah Connor). So wide that just because Diana isn't perfect doesn't mean she is "flawed", at least not in the sense that James Cameron was talking about. Diana Prince does not suffer from any kind of inner trauma the way Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, or Jessica Jones do. Diana has some growing and experiencing to do, but she is hardly flawed by any stretch of the imagination, not unless you want to expand the definition of flawed beyond a useful point of differentiation.

 

Like I said, I get why Wonder Woman is inspirational, and even aspirational. But there's no way any woman could relate to her, as in be able to say to herself, "Yeah, she's just like me and has had so many of the same experiences I did!" any more than 99.99% of men could say the same thing about Thor. These characters are fun to watch, they get us excited when they fight for a righteous cause, but demi-god superheroes are not even remotely relatable.

 

Disagree...this is only true in a technical sense.  WW does amazing and powerful things, remains strong when faced with chauvinism and proves women CAN do things as well as or better than man, but no, girls cannot relate to blocking bullets or lifting tanks.  However, women also can't relate to fighting artificially intelligent super machines, overcoming future apocalypses, single-handedly destroying super-aliens, defeating mind controllers and lifting cars...but yes, do understand rape trauma, mental illness, being single moms, etc.  All 4 women performed superheroic feats and all four overcame relatable difficulties.

[zslane]

What obstacles did Diana face during her 800 years on Themyscira? Diana Prince didn't grow up in a culture that made her feel inferior to another gender. She didn't spend the better part of her life facing chauvinism or persecution or marginalization. She had nothing to overcome except her mother's over-protectiveness. The so-called obstacles she faced when she reached "Man's World" were hardly a challenge, either emotionally or physically. It wasn't decades of reinforced notions of gender inequality that stayed her hand when she was about to do something impulsive or aggressive (basically anything traditionally allowed for males of that era), it was her desire to maintain Steve's approval and not make things difficult for him. If it weren't for that she'd have had no difficulty exerting her will upon any man (or situation) at any time.

 

So no, I don't think very many women or girls in the real world can relate to that. And those who see Diana defiantly assert herself (with the full knowledge of her own physical indestructibility) and think to emulate that will be in a world of hurt if they do so in similar circumstances. I see lots of reasons to hero worship Wonder Woman, but I see few reasons to emulate her apart from her striving to do what's right even (especially?) when it's hard. She's a great vessel for transmitting powerfully positive ideas/principles, but she is not a relatable character.

[Lord Liaden]

To you. Probably to others. With respect, none of us are in a position to tell people who say they relate to her, that they can't.

[zslane]

No, but I can certainly put rational boundaries between what is plausible and what is hyperbole. Any woman who says, "I can totally relate to Diana Prince!" would have to do a lot of (really cogent) explaining to make sense of what she just said (to me anyway).

 

I am convinced that in the giddy excitement over this movie and its financial success, a lot of hyperbole and misunderstood/misinterpreted exuberance is being proclaimed at 140 characters per tweet, and the actual take-away is getting lost in the noise.

[drunkonduty]

zslane, I agree with you on the point that Diana doesn't have a lot of flaws to overcome. This isn't a flaw in the movie.*

 

But as to what women viewers are taking away from the movie... Clearly a lot. How do women identify with a demi-goddess like Wonder Woman? I dunno, the same way any of the super hero fans on this site identify with any other of the demi-gods (literal or metaphorical) who make up the majority of characters in super hero universes?

 

 

 

*I wouldn't want to see every movie ever adopt this approach. I love me some jaded cynicism and a down beat ending. But sometimes an upbeat, decent, heroic character is just right.

[Lord Liaden]

IMHO when the discussion has reached the point of, "I believe this" vs "I believe that," further resolution is improbable. I believe it's time to -- wait for it -- agree to disagree.