Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[zslane]

Sorry, but I am not about to subject myself to eight and half minutes of tweets. Twitter has become a way of filling the 24-hour news cycle, not a vehicle for insightful discourse. The medium, in this case, undermines any potential message.

 

At best, the movie gave the subject of "female empowerment" a brief, albeit brightly lit, spot on stage in the public consciousness. But like all things fueled by social media, as soon as something else more salacious came along, it became just another fading blip on the massive radar screen of pop culture.

 

I loved the movie. I loved that it gave us a strong, idealistic woman with the power to back up her convictions, and that the film's weaknesses didn't overshadow its strengths. But I would be very cautious about getting all giddy over any enduring, wider social impact.

[slikmar]

Still haven't had a chance to see the Gifted, but I find it interesting the comparison I now am making to the first season of Heroes. Cute, blonde teenager with powers (Claire?) whose father is the person rounding up people with powers and putting them in "prison"(HRG). I hadn't even realized it before, but was looking at trailers from comic con.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think Liaden is greatly overstating the effect but it does exist, it can affect people's perceptions somewhat.  And maybe that can happen with Black Panther. Even though its fantasy, sometimes fantasy can help lift people up or teach lessons they might not otherwise learn; CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien wrote extensively on this effect (they called it "fairy stories" since the fantasy category wasn't really a thing in the early 20th century).

 

To that extent, I hope it works.  Its just going to take some hefty work to get Wakanda to seem like good guys despite their lack of assistance to... anyone, really.  "Yeah we cured cancer a century ago.  Kept it to ourselves."

[Lord Liaden]

Sorry, but I am not about to subject myself to eight and half minutes of tweets. Twitter has become a way of filling the 24-hour news cycle, not a vehicle for insightful discourse. The medium, in this case, undermines any potential message.

 

As opposed to time devoted to discussions on a gaming forum?

 

That video is the most concentrated primary-source evidence I've found illustrating my point -- superficial, yes, but I got the impression you weren't interested in digging deeper. If you want to dismiss it without even reviewing it, there's nothing more I can say on the matter.

[drunkonduty]

Actually I don't think Lord Liaden is overstating anything. When I was coming out of the theatre every woman coming out was just vibrating with energy and excitement.

 

The internet was also bursting with excitement. Don't go disregarding people's feelings because they are being shared on facebook/twitter/whatever. We might be a bunch of grumpy middle aged men who find social media truly annoying. But plenty of folks use it to express their feelings.

 

As one of the tweets that is in the link above says, "Representation Matters." Now as white, heterosexual, men (as I suspect most posters here are) we don't get it. Because we've always seen people with whom we can identify on the screen/in books. Try, just try, to imagine what it might be like to have spent your whole life almost never seeing someone who could be you as the hero. If you're a woman you get to be the damsel in distress. Second banana who is just a macguffin to be saved. Then you watch Wonder Woman.

 

So yes, people can and do get excited by a good movie (or other piece of art). So they should. I could go on at essay length about how important stories are. How they shape us, define us, are things we cling to to define ourselves. But as role play gamers I suspect most people here already know this.

 

I suspect there will be a similar reaction to Black Panther. I doubt I'll see this first hand. Not a lot of folks of African ancestry in my neck of the woods. I'm curious to know how Indigenous Australians will react to it. Probably very well.

[Lord Liaden]

Thank you, D.O.D. You expressed what I was thinking most articulately.

 

When I talk to black people about BP, or hear them discussing it online, I feel the same electric anticipation as I felt from women preparatory to seeing Wonder Woman. In both cases, these are the kinds of heroes that the groups they represent have never seen presented this way before. As another grumpy middle-aged white guy, I don't really "get it" either, but I can recognize it in people who do.

[Lord Liaden]

As one of the tweets that is in the link above says, "Representation Matters." Now as white, heterosexual, men (as I suspect most posters here are) we don't get it. Because we've always seen people with whom we can identify on the screen/in books. Try, just try, to imagine what it might be like to have spent your whole life almost never seeing someone who could be you as the hero. If you're a woman you get to be the damsel in distress. Second banana who is just a macguffin to be saved. Then you watch Wonder Woman.

 

As another of those tweets said, "No wonder white men are so obscenely confident all the time I saw one woman hero movie and I'm ready to fight a thousand dudes bare handed."

[drunkonduty]

Yeah, I liked that one too.

[zslane]

As opposed to time devoted to discussions on a gaming forum?

 

That video is the most concentrated primary-source evidence I've found illustrating my point -- superficial, yes, but I got the impression you weren't interested in digging deeper. If you want to dismiss it without even reviewing it, there's nothing more I can say on the matter.

 

Sorry, but anyone who uses Twitter as the primary source for anything has lost me right from the start.

 

The discussions that happen in these forums exhibit orders of magnitude more knowledge, articulation, and reasoned thought than 99.99% of the tweets ever sent.

 

Actually I don't think Lord Liaden is overstating anything. When I was coming out of the theatre every woman coming out was just vibrating with energy and excitement.

 

No one denies the thrill that a well-made, exciting movie provides, or the endorphin rush that lingers when you leave the theatre. The more salient question is what enduring effect the movie has on society. I would argue that it is still too early to tell in this case, but typically even a really good movie doesn't have much impact on the masses after the year of its initial success. Gal Gadot's version of Wonder Woman will surely enter the halls of pop culture icon-hood (like Lynda Carter's), but that does not typically translate into deeply penetrating social change. Hollywood seems very eager to pat itself on the back for making a huge leap of social progress or something, but I'm not convinced they achieved anything but a movie franchise that will do well financially and then fade into affectionate memory like, say, the Christopher Reeve Superman.

[Bazza]

Sorry, but anyone who uses Twitter as the primary source for anything has lost me right from the start.

 

The discussions that happen in these forums exhibit orders of magnitude more knowledge, articulation, and reasoned thought than 99.99% of the tweets ever sent.

Adorable, and misguided that reasoned discussion doesn't go on Twitter. There have been many things in the MCU that have been confirmed from Tweets. Two off the top of my head, is that the macguffin in GotG is the power infinity stone, and the galaxy setting for GotG is Andromeda. In both cases, fans asked these questions and James Gunn replied.

[zslane]

The transmission of simple information, the kind that can be squeezed into 140 characters, is not the same thing as deep, insightful discourse. James Gunn could just as easily have provided that information on a Marvel/GotG website. Twitter is not remarkable for being anything except easily accessible to people who are tethered to their mobile devices like astronauts are tethered to their life support systems.

[Starlord]

Hm, we'll see I guess.  Hard to beleive explorers could be so wrong they missed El Dorado by an entire continent and thousands of miles though, that was a goofball reach.

 

*cough*  Chris Columbus was looking for India  *cough* 

[Lord Liaden]

zslane, what I was describing from the start, which I thought you were disputing, was the powerful and often unique emotional response that many women described experiencing on seeing the Wonder Woman movie and how the character was portrayed. I was extrapolating that to what I'm already hearing and reading from many black people in anticipation of the Black Panther film. I never made any claims that Wonder Woman was going to lead to lasting social change.

 

If I misinterpreted the argument you were trying to make, I apologize.

[drunkonduty]

I didn't say that deep, academic discussion was happening on twitter et.al. I said people were sharing their feelings. Genuine, deep felt feelings. Also, a lot can be said with a few words and an image.

 

To address a more salient point you made: I agree. One movie isn't going to change the world. Shame about that. But if the first movie is never made, then the second cannot be made, nor the third, etc. There has to be a starting  point.

 

And yes, you bring up a good point about movies (not) changing the world. Another essay length question. Does culture, in the form of art, impact society and societal values, or do societal values impact art? Short answer: both. Can one movie by itself have a lasting impact on broader society? Probably not. But see my paragraph above about having to start somewhere.

 

A single movie, book, tv show can, however, have a very deep impact on an individual. Impact enough individuals and you do see the beginnings of broader change. Follow up with more movies, books, shows, etc. and this will have enough lasting impact on enough people that they will go out and effect meaningful change, as protestors, lobbyists, law makers, whatever. Inspiration comes from many places. Movies is one of them.

[Starlord]

I have three golfing buddies who are black.  They know I love superhero movies...they go see them because of their kids.  They've had more to say with more excitement about 1 Black Panther trailer (haven't talked to them since the new trailer) than they've had to say about all the last 10 years of superhero movies combined.

[drunkonduty]

I have three golfing buddies who are black.  They know I love superhero movies...they go see them because of their kids.  They've had more to say with more excitement about 1 Black Panther trailer (haven't talked to them since the new trailer) than they've had to say about all the last 10 years of superhero movies combined.

 

Representation matters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And yes, you bring up a good point about movies (not) changing the world. Another essay length question. Does culture, in the form of art, impact society and societal values, or do societal values impact art? Short answer: both. Can one movie by itself have a lasting impact on broader society? Probably not. But see my paragraph above about having to start somewhere.

 

Well I mean Wonder Woman was hardly the first strong female character portrayed in movies.  Ripley comes to mind, beating up on the alien queen hand to hand combat, using her brains and skill.  Its just now we're in the social media age, so people's first gut reaction gets thrown out for the world to see and forgotten in a week.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Well I mean Wonder Woman was hardly the first strong female character portrayed in movies.  Ripley comes to mind, beating up on the alien queen hand to hand combat, using her brains and skill.  Its just now we're in the social media age, so people's first gut reaction gets thrown out for the world to see and forgotten in a week.

 

 

To some extent I have to disagree with you. What I've heard and read from a number of women discussing Wonder Woman and female action characters in general, is that in the past women seemed to need to behave like their male counterparts to be taken seriously. Qualities which have traditionally been seen as "female" -- warmth, compassion, supportiveness -- have often been viewed as weaknesses, making women "unable to make tough choices." As a result strong women have most often been portrayed as hard, stoic, even ruthless, the way men have been. Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is one recent example.

 

The Wonder Woman film is a game changer because Diana is none of that. She wears her heart on her sleeve all the time. She doesn't sacrifice her compassion in order to be strong; in fact it's the source of her strength, the motivation for her heroism. Essentially it's telling women that if they want to be heroes, they should embrace what makes them who they are, not give it up.

[Lord Liaden]

Another refreshing change with Diana is that so many of those other strong women are also emotionally damaged in some way. James Cameron's female protagonists, like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, are notable examples -- filled with and driven by grief, anger, fear. In contrast Diana is positive, idealistic, hopeful. She wants the best for everyone and is relentlessly determined to make that happen. If innocent people need help, you help them, no question or doubt. In the movie you see that attitude and determination inspire the people around her, which is what makes it so inspiring for the audience. And when her beliefs are challenged and shaken, she comes through to an understanding that has matured and deepened, but is no less positive.

[bigdamnhero]

Well put, LL. (Ima out of rep...)

[zslane]

I agree with all that you say there, LL.

 

I guess I'm trying to understand the nature of women's (and girls') reaction beyond the expected, "Diana was awesome!" I mean, these reports make it sound as though women and girls are having their minds thrown wide open to the idea of empowerment for the first time or something. And if so, I just don't buy it. That idea has been growing in western society ever since it was first planted a hundred years ago by the suffragettes.

 

On the other hand, if they are giddy with the hope that the success of this movie will change the way women are portrayed in all the Hollywood movies still to come, I think they are in for a rude awakening. That sort of cultural shift is glacial at best, especially when money is involved and men are still in control of most of it.

[Lord Liaden]

It pains me to say it because it's such a tired cliche, but I believe there's a level on which those of us who are men will never really understand what the WW movie means to a woman. I also think the upcoming Black Panther movie will reach black people on a level those of us who aren't among societal minorities will never really understand.

[drunkonduty]

Well put, LL. (Ima out of rep...)

 

Got him for you.

[Hermit]

Another refreshing change with Diana is that so many of those other strong women are also emotionally damaged in some way. James Cameron's female protagonists, like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, are notable examples -- filled with and driven by grief, anger, fear. In contrast Diana is positive, idealistic, hopeful. She wants the best for everyone and is relentlessly determined to make that happen. If innocent people need help, you help them, no question or doubt. In the movie you see that attitude and determination inspire the people around her, which is what makes it so inspiring for the audience. And when her beliefs are challenged and shaken, she comes through to an understanding that has matured and deepened, but is no less positive.

 

I'll agree with that one for certain.

[zslane]

Another refreshing change with Diana is that so many of those other strong women are also emotionally damaged in some way. James Cameron's female protagonists, like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor, are notable examples -- filled with and driven by grief, anger, fear. In contrast Diana is positive, idealistic, hopeful. She wants the best for everyone and is relentlessly determined to make that happen. If innocent people need help, you help them, no question or doubt. In the movie you see that attitude and determination inspire the people around her, which is what makes it so inspiring for the audience. And when her beliefs are challenged and shaken, she comes through to an understanding that has matured and deepened, but is no less positive.

 

Diana is notably less realistic than the James Cameron heroines, something we can chalk up to her being a near-perfect demi-goddess rather than a deeply flawed human. That makes her tremendously inspirational and difficult to relate to in equal measure.