BoloOfEarth Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 IMHO when the discussion has reached the point of, "I believe this" vs "I believe that," further resolution is improbable. I believe it's time to -- wait for it -- agree to disagree. Hmmm... I'll have to disagree with you on this. Obviously, what I believe is the truth. All other beliefs are fictitious, wrong, bad-bad stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 IMHO when the discussion has reached the point of, "I believe this" vs "I believe that," further resolution is improbable. Yeah but it started that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 But as to what women viewers are taking away from the movie... Clearly a lot. How do women identify with a demi-goddess like Wonder Woman? I dunno, the same way any of the super hero fans on this site identify with any other of the demi-gods (literal or metaphorical) who make up the majority of characters in super hero universes? Yep, exactly. The same way guys identify with Thor. Which is to say, in ways that have nothing to do with finding similarities in their respective abilities or life experiences. In fact, we don't really identify with them, rather we idolize the values and convictions (and resulting actions) of these characters, whether they are demi-god superheroes or not, and those values and convictions aren't race- or gender-specific. I get excited when I see a heroic character like Wonder Woman fight the good fight, and I get equally excited when I see the same exact values being championed, and the same good fight being fought by a character like Captain America. The gender of the character is immaterial since it is their core values that matter, not the color of their skin or the nature of their reproductive organs. Yet there seems to be this thing where a lot of folks don't find their hearts and minds opened to those values, and the inspirational power of those actions, unless they come packaged in a form that matches what they see in a mirror. And that's just sad. Armory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 The irony of a man telling women they can't relate to a character that has, for nearly a century, been an iconic symbol of perseverance and strength for women in a male-ruled society is not lost on me. This same type of thinking had male writers using WW as the JL secretary for a time. BTW, she is also a symbol of compassion, mercy and peace...but yeah, she has superpowers so what woman could possibly relate to her? drunkonduty, Lord Liaden, Armory and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Another refreshing change with Diana is that so many of those other strong women are also emotionally damaged in some way. A friend also pointed out how many of these other Strong Women are tied in with the concept of motherhood: either explicitly like Sarah Conner, or implicitly as with Ripley. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just as it's nice to see a female character whose identity doesn't revolve around their relationship to their man/men, it's also nice once in awhile to see a female character whose identity doesn't revolve around their relationship to their kids. But how many on that list were genuinely good people? "It's my estimation that every man person ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another." Malcolm Reynolds Diana sees that all is not simple, that the people of this world outside her island are flawed and messed up, and she decides they're worth caring about anyway. They're worth fighting for anyway. She doesn't become Jaded and bitter, rather she realizes that the fact they try so hard to rise above their worst makes them even more precious. Right. Tho that is one thing that bugged me about the end of the movie: because Jenkins was forced to fit her inside the existing DCEU, we're told that Diana decided to fight and protect and inspire humanity...but then she basically hides for the next hundred years until BvS. That's not to say she was completely idle during all that time, obviously. But I still think it undermined the lesson Jenkins wanted us to take away from the ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 The irony of a man telling women they can't relate to a character that has, for nearly a century, been an iconic symbol of perseverance and strength for women in a male-ruled society is not lost on me. This tells me that we aren't using "relate to" in the same way. You seem to be using it to mean "be inspired by, be impressed with, wish to be like," and I use it to mean, "find common life experiences (beyond the most abstract, general kind)." Consequently, the irony you detect has nothing to do with anything I've been saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 I was watching an online review of the Wonder Woman movie, and heard one woman reviewer remark on how little Diana aping the training movements of the adult Amazons, trying to be like them, was so much like what she and her friends did when they were children. I remember adult Diana training with Antiope, and how she keeps looking to her mother, obviously seeking her approval. I remember her grief when her aunt and mentor, who'd been behind her her whole life, died in her arms. I remember the pain on Diana's and Hippolyta's faces when she left her home for the first time, for an uncertain future. I remember Diana's joy on seeing a baby, which I've heard many women remark was so how a woman would respond. I saw her reacting with compassion to people hurt and suffering all around her, and her frustration at being told there was nothing she could do. These are not difficult things for most women, or people in general, to relate to. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 I identify with Thor, he's a friend from work. Hermit, Pattern Ghost and Lord Liaden 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 This tells me that we aren't using "relate to" in the same way. You seem to be using it to mean "be inspired by, be impressed with, wish to be like," and I use it to mean, "find common life experiences (beyond the most abstract, general kind)." Consequently, the irony you detect has nothing to do with anything I've been saying. Well, that tells me you're using 'relate to' incorrectly, or at least in a very narrow, specific manner that fits your own narrative. My wife is Brazilian. She relates to WW because she had to leave her parents for a frightening journey into a foreign land. You're saying, "no, you don't relate because, yes, you did all that but didn't do it exactly the way Diana did. ???? There are a hundred different ways to relate to this character. Relate transitive verb 1 :to give an account of :tell 2 :to show or establish logical or causal connection between seeks to relate crime to poverty intransitive verb 1 :to apply or take effect retroactively —usually used with back the law relates back to the initial date of decision 2 :to have relationship or connection the readings relate to his lectures 3 :to have or establish a relationship :interact the way a child relates to a teacher 4 a :to respond especially favorably can't relate to that kind of music b :to understand and like or have sympathy for someone or something Those who have experienced the same hardship can relate.characters the reader can easily relate to bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Just to get back to the thread topic for a moment , early reviews for Thor: Ragnarok are out, and so far they're strongly positive. Most interesting is the reassurance to fans of director Taika Waititi, who might have been afraid the Marvel studio vision would stifle his distinctive style, that this is very much a Waititi movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Thor Ragnarok, currently 98% on RT when I looked an hour ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Okay, yes, you're right. Girls and women can identify with Diana Prince because she was a girl and became a woman. Fair enough. However, Diana Prince did not embark on a frightening journey. At least it wasn't frightening for Diana. She was on a mission, a crusade if you will, and filled to the brim with laser-focused determination. I didn't see a single moment of fear, doubt, or uncertainty in her the entire time she was away from Themyscira. Moreover, she was perfectly capable of speaking whatever language(s) were required and had no difficulty acquiring the friends, allies, and resources needed to carry out her mission. She faced no real struggle as a result of being a foreigner. All the Fish Out of Water stuff was played strictly for comedy. I see no meaningful similarity between her quest and the canonical immigrant narrative. I totally agree with you about one thing, LL, I shouldn't be perpetuating this line of discussion in an MCU thread. Apologies to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 The Critic Reviews For 'Thor: Ragnarok' Are Now Here https://mcuexchange.com/thor-ragnarok-reviews/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 The one real complaint about Wonder Woman that resonates is that she never was in any real danger or challenged, but I don't mind that so much. If anything, its refreshing after films that pile misery and burden and awful despair over and over on the main characters. Its an introductory film, show the character being triumphant and capable. Too often writers seem to not understand that you have to establish the character and their abilities, how capable they are and what they do before you put them in a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I am continually impressed by Chris Hemsworth as an actor. His comedic timing is brilliant, it seems he could probably play any role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 It was a smart move to give Hemsworth a vehicle which continues to capitalize on his established leading man/ action hero credentials, but also exploits his comedic talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 The reviews sound like Thor 3 is just a big setup to Ragnarok, which maybe so but if its entertaining enough, it can work. Hemsworth really is a pretty funny guy as he proved in the first Thor film, and I have always enjoyed his confident, fearless take on the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 The reviews sound like Thor 3 is just a big setup to Ragnarok, Do you mean to Infinity War? Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I am continually impressed by Chris Hemsworth as an actor. His comedic timing is brilliant, it seems he could probably play any role. Well he was certainly the better Captain Kirk of the new Star Trek. DasBroot, Christopher R Taylor and zslane 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Well he was certainly the better Captain Kirk of the new Star Trek. Dude, truer words were never spoke. Nolgroth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 New Kirk is bad because they write him as an immature d-bag, not because of the actor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 New Kirk is bad because they write him as an immature d-bag, not because of the actor. I concur. The actor has some good moments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted October 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 I got my ticket to Thor Ragnarok for next Thursday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 New Kirk is bad because they write him as an immature d-bag, not because of the actor. I concur. The actor has some good moments If Chris Pine's Jim Kirk was written closer to his Steve Trevor, I think many people would change their opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 New Kirk is bad because they write him as an immature d-bag, not because of the actor. Yeah I think they are trying to make him dynamic and risk-taking like Kirk was, but younger. But instead he comes across as an jerk and a child. Pine is a pretty capable actor but they're not giving him much to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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