Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Old Man]

[薔薇語]

Truely the most powerful force in any comic-verse.

 

Foreign Orchid

[Lord Liaden]

And on that note (specifically at 1:00):

 

 

[Bazza]

I thought, for the most part, McGuire was the better Parker, and Garfield was the better Spider-Man

 

I have only seen the Raimi Spider-Man films...so far. I plan to watch the other two, just haven't got around to it yet. 

 

After seeing both films within a week. I agree with you Herm. Garfield's Spider-Man was a blast. Specifically liked his banter and the mechanical web shooters are back! 

 

Makes me look forward to the new version. 

[slikmar]

One thing they have talked about is the Spider-Man/Captain America fight. I really hope they use it to have Cap change Spidey's side, as he sort of did in the original storyline.

[Bazza]

Watching Age of Ultron again last night, Cap should be for registration, Tony, against it.

[薔薇語]

Watching Age of Ultron again last night, Cap should be for registration, Tony, against it.

I think it could still go eitherway, assuming that is what the 'civil war' is all about. Cap, from his second movie, seems very distrusting of the government have massive amounts of power and has seen first hand that even good folks he trusted can be corrupted. Tony from AoU, however, showed a 'at all costs' mentality.

 

 

it can go either way but I think the classic situation is still possible.

 

Foreign Orchid.

[slikmar]

I also think the infiltration of Hydra is a very big factor. I don;t think Cap believes they got everyone in the government.

[Lord Liaden]

I think it will all come down to the events that precipitate this conflict. The plot synopsis for the Civil War movie sounds substantially different from the comic-book version, so we'll need to see how it shakes out.

 

Yes, Steve Rogers has been given reason to distrust the present-day American government. But he's always wanted to be of service to something greater than himself, and anyone setting themselves above accountability smacks of what he fought a war to stop. Yes, Tony's experiences have led him to develop a "whatever it takes" mentality. But he's been suspicious of and rebellious toward authority all his life, and believes he knows what it takes better than everyone else.

[Bazza]

Watching Age of Ultron again last night, Cap should be for registration, Tony, against it.

To expand a bit: Tony was the cause and reason for both the problem and the solution. He created Ultron to provide a first line of defence against another alien invasion ('the end game' according to Tony) and owned the role of mad scientist in the co-creation of Vision. He may be portrayed as reckless, but he is also the only one (except maybe Thor) who sees the bigger picture. And near the end of Avengers 1 he literally saw the "bigger picture" as he went through the wormhole. 

 

The attack by Hulk in South Africa could be considered as the moment civil war began. To me that event more than anything showed just how out of control the Avengers can be, not to mention the property damage. The events in Slovaka with the city rising above the clouds is another example. Governments would have taken notice and the need to do something. Presumably the event (if there is one) is the straw that breaks the camels back and is the reason the US Government (presumably other governments as well) writes the Superhero Registration Act. 

 

Throughout the film, Cap is seen to be against Tony's recklessness (the "Yin" to Tony's "Yang"). Steve is really the person Tony wanted to hide Ultron from (Thor also was very annoyed too, but came around), and remember that Steve stopped the upload of Jarvis into Vision before Thor completed the process. Also in the end, Steve referred to the New Avengers facility as "home".

 

Thus to me it seems reasonable that if superhero registration were to occur Steve would be for it, for the reason to stop/hinder the kind of recklessness Tony did with both Ultron & Vision. Ultron was a BIG mistake, yet Vision was a success. Vision is what the Ultron program was envisioned to be. Steve is still very much a "government man", i.e. still part of Avengers, working with SHIELD & US Military figures like Fury, Nat, War Machine & Falcon. Tony would be against registration as he would see it as a way of the government trying to own his technology was he was shown to be against all the way back in Iron Man 2.

 

Thus to simplify my reasoning to the main points:

• Steve: "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die. Every time."
• Tony sees the big picture, tried to "win" the war before it starts. 
• Steve still associates with SHIELD & US Military personnel. It is fair that Falcon & War Machine could have resigned their military commissions to be with Avengers full time. 
• Tony is presumably is funding the New Avengers Facility as the warehouse was owned by his dad.  
• Thus Steve would be fore registration, as he still believes in law and order, while Tony would be against it, as he see it as another way the Govt trying to own his tech. 

[Bazza]

AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR Buildup & Infinity Stones Explained In New AGE OF ULTRON Featurette

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/?a=124909

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGhOW_Gums4

 

(the youtube video is skewed but when i download the video it is in proper dimensions. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, in all honesty, if I lived in that world, I'd want superbeings to be registered too.

[Hermit]

The thing is, in all honesty, if I lived in that world, I'd want superbeings to be registered too.

 

A lot would depend. If the superheroes had a better track record than the government for fighting supervillains, I might go full Libertarian instead. Nevermind the idea I might have a mutant kid in my family who got attacked by a giant robot in the name of 'national security'.

 

One of my problems with the CW series in the comics (Besides it being awful) was that suddenly the entire population seemed mind wiped from all the times the superheroes had saved the world 

[Lord Liaden]

In the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the phenomenon of public, truly super-powered people is only a few years old. Captain America and the Red Skull were high-profile, but both were presumed dead for seven decades. Ant-Man and Wasp were active for SHIELD during the later years of the Cold War, but their activities were apparently classified secrets; likewise the Winter Soldier's missions for HYDRA. Asgardians were centuries-old legends as far as most people were concerned.

 

In that context, it makes sense for global societies to currently be wrestling with legal, political, and social frameworks to deal with superhumans. Like Nick Fury said in Avengers the movie: "The world is filling up with people who can't be matched -- can't be controlled."

[薔薇語]

One of my problems with the CW series in the comics (Besides it being awful) was that suddenly the entire population seemed mind wiped from all the times the superheroes had saved the world 

 

 

So quickly you seem to forget the effects of even a single tragedy on a populace's psyche. And so close to the anniversary of 9/11. One truly horrid display of Heroes messing up along with a constant hate message from anti-mutants and attacks by Super Villains can drive a society to quickly turn on its 'meta' population. And the CW wasn't something restricted to just the Captain American and Iron Man corners of the Marvel-verse but also included the verse with a raging Hulk monster, the Brotherhood of Evil mutants, teenagers going berserk with powers and no way to control them. 

 

And lets not forget that the US already has an internal struggle with restricting mundane weapons. And while we tend to be more open than most every other nation in the world, that isn't because we lack strong advocates of Gun Control. Now add to their ranks all the racist who hate Metas. Add to their ranks all the folks naturally afraid of being attacked by vigilante mutants like the Brotherhood. Add to that all those who are reasonably concerned by folks like Prof. X mind wiping them. Add to that all the folks afraid of total strangers who show no outward signs of being special all of a sudden exploding in a nuclear blast. That fine line the US rides in keeping Gun Control laws from getting passed would disappear overnight. Especially if we can derive a jingoistic call to do so after some major tragedy like occurred in the actual Marvel CW. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

[Hermit]

I have not forgotten, and your accusation that I have offends me.

 

That's the nicest thing I can say about that right now.

 

I'm going to step out of this thread and cool off or try to.

[薔薇語]

I have not forgotten, and your accusation that I have offends me.

 

That's the nicest thing I can say about that right now.

 

I'm going to step out of this thread and cool off or try to.

 

woh woh woh. Slow down a sec. I think you are taking offense to a comment that was, I thought, rather clearly not meant to be offensive. The fact that it has been is surprising to me. But if it has been, I do apologize for that. It was by no means meant to be. I brought up the event as a bit of a topical reference to how moods can change very quickly and backed it up with how it wouldn't even be that much of a change for the actual marvel-verse. 

 

Again, I am sorry it came across offensive. It was by no means meant to. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

[Hermit]

woh woh woh. Slow down a sec. I think you are taking offense to a comment that was, I thought, rather clearly not meant to be offensive. The fact that it has been is surprising to me. But if it has been, I do apologize for that. It was by no means meant to be. I brought up the event as a bit of a topical reference to how moods can change very quickly and backed it up with how it wouldn't even be that much of a change for the actual marvel-verse. 

 

Again, I am sorry it came across offensive. It was by no means meant to. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

Sorry, you mentioned that I had forgotten about tragedy, and on a day after 9/11's anniversary ... which I will admit, I may have knee jerk taken to mean I had forgotten about nearly 3000 souls dying in a terrorist attack

 

I'm glad that's not the way it was intended. And I suppose I owe you something of an apology for my own negative take and putting meaning in what you said that was never intended. Apologies back at you.

 

Now, as for what you were trying to say, yes, the public in the real world often over reacts.... but MU isn't the real world. In the comic verse, it was time and time again saved by superheroes who stopped alien invasions, attacks by Atlantis, and my personal favorite.... Galactus about to eat the ####ing planet. But the event decided no, no, that was all under the rug, yeah, that's the ticket. ONLY the bad stuff was remembered. It was a retcon used to make the story fit, and  damn continuity, oh, and damn characterization to. Had Captain America gone on the news and given one of his super speeches (The guy has like an Oratory of 21-), the public probably would have wanted to elect him president... again. 

 

In the real world, the gun control debate has the public on both sides.... but in MU? There was no real attempt to balance things out when it came to supers. The superheroes were split (And in ways that made no sense.... Reed Richards actually gave a speech against registration once, but suddenly he was like a third Reich mad scientist.... Tony was the ultimate authoritarian tool, etc) but the public? It was one frothing stupid torch and pitchfork horde. If we want to use the gun control analogy, it would be as if suddenly the US woke up and 95% of the populace didn't just demand gun registration, they demanded that anyone with a gun be sent to a gulag without trial. Which is pretty insulting to both sides of the debate

 

Seriously, the MU Public in the comics was portrayed as the worst only, when in the real world, you actually have folks who, even if they're outnumbered against a social tide, try to urge calm and talking things out.  In the MU? The average Joe Public guy was portrayed so mindlessly hateful that I almost wanted to cheer Galactus on.

 

When your writing is so ham handed, when the story requires  more anvils than any twenty bugs bunny cartoons, when it turns into a parody of Oprah shouting "You get an idiot ball to carry, you get an idiot ball to carry, billions of you all get an idiot ball to carry"  and when you ignore characterization built up just to 'make it fit' like the writers of CW did, there's a severe problem.

 

It is my hope that the movies can polish off this turd and make something worthwhile out of it

 

YMMV, of course.

[Grailknight]

You forgot the part where the comic MU forms Hit Squads of convicted murderers and terrorists whenever the heroes step out of line.

[Lord Mhoram]

 

Thus to simplify my reasoning to the main points:

• Steve: "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die. Every time."
• Tony sees the big picture, tried to "win" the war before it starts. 
• Steve still associates with SHIELD & US Military personnel. It is fair that Falcon & War Machine could have resigned their military commissions to be with Avengers full time. 
• Tony is presumably is funding the New Avengers Facility as the warehouse was owned by his dad.  
• Thus Steve would be fore registration, as he still believes in law and order, while Tony would be against it, as he see it as another way the Govt trying to own his tech. 

 

 

Good points, but he is also (from his perspective) only a few years away from a war with evil, that started with the evil registering then labeling a part of the population. It may be 70 year old history for the rest, for for Cap it's very fresh - and the symbolism of registering people, for whatever reason, could be very Nazi in his mind - and a solid reason he would be anti-reg. "the last time someone said people needed to be registered, we had a disagreement too" to modify a quote.

[slikmar]

I would point out that in most promo pictures, War Machine is shown as on Tony's side, as is Widow I believe. I always thought that it made more sense for Cap to be pro registration, as I mentioned when CW first appeared, had they done it more like his original era private investigators having a license and working with the DA's office often. Also, a lot of Steve's problem with registration was "Who controls the secret IDs?". Remember, his worst fears came to light when Tony, who he respected but didn't believe it would stop with, was replaced by Norman Osborne. Tony did set a trap for Norman, basically plugging in a massive delete if he ever tried to access Spiderman's ID. I can see Steve, having seen the most paranoid, smartest and careful spy in the world have his entire organization taken out from under him, that leaving these secret IDs (not something the MCU has really dealt with, other then Clint's family) in whoever ends in charge of them.

[slikmar]

deleted for double post

[Bazza]

Good points, but he is also (from his perspective) only a few years away from a war with evil, that started with the evil registering then labeling a part of the population. It may be 70 year old history for the rest, for for Cap it's very fresh - and the symbolism of registering people, for whatever reason, could be very Nazi in his mind - and a solid reason he would be anti-reg. "the last time someone said people needed to be registered, we had a disagreement too" to modify a quote.

 

 

I would point out that in most promo pictures, War Machine is shown as on Tony's side, as is Widow I believe. I always thought that it made more sense for Cap to be pro registration, as I mentioned when CW first appeared, had they done it more like his original era private investigators having a license and working with the DA's office often. Also, a lot of Steve's problem with registration was "Who controls the secret IDs?". Remember, his worst fears came to light when Tony, who he respected but didn't believe it would stop with, was replaced by Norman Osborne. Tony did set a trap for Norman, basically plugging in a massive delete if he ever tried to access Spiderman's ID. I can see Steve, having seen the most paranoid, smartest and careful spy in the world have his entire organization taken out from under him, that leaving these secret IDs (not something the MCU has really dealt with, other then Clint's family) in whoever ends in charge of them.

 

Good points both. Which ever the motivation for civil war, my hope is that it is justified and in character. 

[Bazza]

Various bits of news and stuff

 

There’s a Huge ‘Guardians of the Galaxy’ Easter Egg No One Has Found Yet

http://screencrush.com/guardians-of-the-galaxy-easter-egg-undiscovered/

 

Doctor Strange Has Officially Found Its Leading Lady

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Doctor-Strange-Has-Officially-Found-Its-Leading-Lady-82487.html

 

How Sebastian Stan Feels About Possibly Becoming Captain America

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-Sebastian-Stan-Feels-About-Possibly-Becoming-Captain-America-82517.html

 

When And Why Josh Brolin Decided To Play Thanos

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Josh-Brolin-Decided-Play-Thanos-82457.html

 

Elizabeth Olsen Shares Information About Her Role in 'Civil War'

http://www.latino-review.com/news/elizabeth-olsen-shares-information-about-her-role-in-civil-war

[Pattern Ghost]

Ugh, that last one.

 

 

 

It's "per se"!!!!!!!!!!! NOT EVER "per say."

 

 

 

I fear for the future of Americanish.