Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, slikmar said: You forgot Silver Surfer was part of that. I have always joked when people start talking about most powerful teams that the original defenders were pretty much it. Ultimate energy blaster, Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Mental/Magic. Namor is specialty, but as we all know, a power unto his own. Silver Surfer did show up briefly on more than one occasion, but I can confirm that the original three Defenders were Strange, Hulk, and Namor. Personally, I'd have preferred the Surfer in the original group myself, for exactly the reasons you mention. Edited November 18, 2023 by Lord Liaden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 I loved the Defenders, but they were a really weird group, with a gigantically powerful core and then random dudes the writers liked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Then again, you could say the same about the Avengers. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Marvel Studios already has a non-team series similar to the Defenders concept: What If. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 What If? is completely non-canonical by definition tho. Defenders was canon, I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Since Uncle Impaler completely missed my mention of Marvel Studios aka the MCU, not the comics I guess I have to remind him that What If season 2 starts December 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Silver Surfer did show up briefly on more than one occasion, but I can confirm that the original three Defenders were Strange, Hulk, and Namor. Personally, I'd have preferred the Surfer in the original group myself, for exactly the reasons you mention. Actually...the Defenders got their start in Sub-Mariner, and three issues of Marvel Feature, before getting their own title. Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange were back & forth early on. Edited November 18, 2023 by Hugh Neilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Sure, but they didn't call themselves the Defenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 True. And there is also a predecessor in Dr. Strange 183/Sub-Mariner 22/Hulk 126 before the Sub-Mariner group. The Defenders name started in Marvel Feature, with Doc, Namor and Hulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 16 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: Ms. Marvel was popular with comics readers, and although I never read her book I thought it was one of the better Disney+ shows. I recommend it! The show really captured the feel of the comic. Starlord 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 20 hours ago, unclevlad said: Escalation, escalation, escalation. Once you upscale, going back down to smaller scale becomes unsatisfying to the audience. Hey, they beat Thanos, why is the Green Goblin now a threat??? Well, there's this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Anyone who watched Spider-Man: No Way Home can imagine the Green Goblin being a threat. That Goblin is a super-powered Joker, a cunning technical genius who's also a homicidal psychopathic megalomaniac. He exists to spread chaos, terror, death and destruction, and to infect other supers with his delusions of godhood. slikmar and mattingly 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Quote Anyone who watched Spider-Man: No Way Home can imagine the Green Goblin being a threat. But is he going to beat up the Hulk and kill half the universe? He's right, by comparison having Thanos almost right out the gate makes other threats seem pathetic. If the Avengers struggle to defeat, say, Kang, they look pathetic and inconsistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) Why does he have to beat up the Hulk and kill half the universe? Zemo couldn't, but look what he did to the Avengers. Green Goblin nearly triggered a multiversal invasion. Killmonger was about to start a racial world war. Why aren't those things big enough? Edited November 18, 2023 by Lord Liaden Old Man, Ternaugh, Grailknight and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 If the Goblin can almost trigger a multiversal invasion, then...the writers lose me. Totally. Suspension of disbelief gets destroyed. The writers stopped caring about anything like that ages ago. Plots have been absurd and obscenely contrived for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: But is he going to beat up the Hulk and kill half the universe? He's right, by comparison having Thanos almost right out the gate makes other threats seem pathetic. If the Avengers struggle to defeat, say, Kang, they look pathetic and inconsistent. true, to some extent, except its an Avengers without Steve or Tony and maybe Thor or the full powered Hulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, unclevlad said: If the Goblin can almost trigger a multiversal invasion, then...the writers lose me. Totally. Suspension of disbelief gets destroyed. The writers stopped caring about anything like that ages ago. Plots have been absurd and obscenely contrived for years. *Sigh* That was an incident at the end of No Way Home, Green Goblin sabotaging what Dr. Strange was doing. Goblin probably didn't even know that was what would happen, although I doubt he'd act differently if he did. But that wasn't the point of the movie, the point is that to stop it Peter Parker would have to sacrifice his whole life. That completed his hero's journey, which is what this trilogy of movies is really about. Edited November 18, 2023 by Lord Liaden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Quote Green Goblin nearly triggered a multiversal invasion. Killmonger was about to start a racial world war. Why aren't those things big enough? Its not that they are not big events, its that they are a letdown after the two movie climax of the Thanos story. They are a throwback to Loki's alien invasion and Ultron... doing whatever the hell that was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said: *Sigh* That was an incident at the end of No Way Home, Green Goblin sabotaging what Dr. Strange was doing. Goblin probably didn't even know that was what would happen, although I doubt he'd act differently if he did. But that wasn't the point of the movie, the point is that to stop it Peter Parker would have to sacrifice his whole life. That completed his hero's journey, which is what this trilogy of movies is really about. Then it's not GG, and it doesn't represent the actual threat he represents. And it shifts it to just another (near) deus ex machina. It doesn't matter that it's part of Peter's hero journey because it's too contrived in the first place. It's bad writing, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Its not that they are not big events, its that they are a letdown after the two movie climax of the Thanos story. They are a throwback to Loki's alien invasion and Ultron... doing whatever the hell that was. I guess I just don't see story events as having to be cumulative, as long as each story is distinctive and well done. I don't consider the Secret Invasion a letdown just because it followed the Kree-Skrull War. I never saw Thanos as a step down from Galactus. 3 minutes ago, unclevlad said: Then it's not GG, and it doesn't represent the actual threat he represents. And it shifts it to just another (near) deus ex machina. It doesn't matter that it's part of Peter's hero journey because it's too contrived in the first place. It's bad writing, IMO. I guess we're at that "agree to disagree" stage. Edited November 18, 2023 by Lord Liaden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Quote I guess I just don't see story events as having to be cumulative, as long as each story is distinctive and well done. In comics, sure. But movies each have to be bigger and better than the previous one or at least as big as the last one or it feels like a letdown. You don't get a movie every month to continue the storyline, each movie is like... its an annual, or a special edition one-shot, or a limited series. The rules are different, and audience expectations are different. And Galactus is a letdown after Thanos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 *Shrug* The James Bond series? Sixty years, twenty-five films, how many times has Bond saved the world? But here too, this discussion has reached an impasse, so I don't think anyone will benefit from my continuing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Sorry LL, I've got to agree that the setup to No Way Home was pure bad writing. If you're going to rewrite the universe, you should get your start and end points finalized before you begin the spell. If Strange isn't an arrogant idiot the movie doesn't happen. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) But MCU Strange is an arrogant idiot. His whole origin was him being an arrogant idiot. He always thinks he's the smartest person in the room (most of the time, he is), and there's nothing he can't control. Multiverse of Madness was the start of him learning some genuine humility. Tony Stark was an arrogant idiot, until near the end of his life. Thor was an arrogant idiot until he lost his godhood. Strange did have the start and end points finalized, Peter kept wanting him to change the terms, and distracting him. That doesn't change that Strange was too cocky by half to attempt the spell and ignore Wong's warnings. Yet that's consistent with how the MCU has portrayed him. Edited November 18, 2023 by Lord Liaden Old Man and slikmar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) He didn't have the endpoints. Doing it properly would have entailed a long conversation with Peter before they started to finalize the details and instructions to not speak up and change things. If a typical group of players can discuss how to use a wish for 10-15 minutes before giving the GM the final version, a supposed Sorcerer Supreme candidate should be able to plan one out also. I like the Strange appearances as a whole but you'd think that he could apply "First do no harm." to magic. He's supposed to be arrogant, extremely so, but not idiotic to the point of being the problem instead of the solution. Edited November 18, 2023 by Grailknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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