Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[mattingly]

[slikmar]

I still love the fact that none of them mailed in their performances. NWH was a very fun movie.

[Christopher R Taylor]

All the leads in No Way Home really delivered, great acting.  The story was a messed up jumble, and they made Dr Strange look like an idiot, but the performances and the last half really made it work.

[slikmar]

The problem they have with Strange, and to a slightly lesser degree Stark, was that they need to show their ridiculous level of arrogance in addition to being more intelligent then the people he interacts with. So how do you show this, by making him do something that anyone with a modicum of common sense would know was stupid. It reminds me of a variant of Wolverine is a great fighter - Iron Fist level fighter, but the only way to show his healing factor and adamantium skeleton is for him to constantly get his butt kicked. If you actually showed how good a fighter he was, then his healing factor and toughness wouldn't come into play most of the time as he wouldn't get hit. For Strange and Stark, you have to show their arrogance by having them assuming that they know all the variables and therefore can use their superior intelligence to control the situation.

Edited November 4, 2023 by slikmar

[Christopher R Taylor]

But Dr Strange's arrogance was gone (at least in the comics) when he studied with the Ancient One.  He became, for lack of a better term, enlightened by learning the secrets of the universe, which made him more humble.  Stark in the movies is pretty well defined by his arrogance, selfishness, and lack of concern for others, which he sort of learns to get past eventually, by the time he dies.  But Dr Strange isn't.  And in both No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness, he's mostly shown to be an idiot, which is just bizarre to me.

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, slikmar said:

The problem they have with Strange, and to a slightly lesser degree Stark, was that they need to show their ridiculous level of arrogance in addition to being more intelligent then the people he interacts with. So how do you show this, by making him do something that anyone with a modicum of common sense would know was stupid. It reminds me of a variant of Wolverine is a great fighter - Iron Fist level fighter, but the only way to show his healing factor and adamantium skeleton is for him to constantly get his butt kicked. If you actually showed how good a fighter he was, then his healing factor and toughness wouldn't come into play most of the time as he wouldn't get hit. For Strange and Stark, you have to show their arrogance by having them assuming that they know all the variables and therefore can use their superior intelligence to control the situation.

 

This is a pretty good roundup.  Even in the comics, Strange had a tendency to make unilateral fate-of-the-world decisions with no regard for input of others.

 

 

[Bazza]

In part, that was the responsibility he has a Sorcerer Supreme. It is a title for one person, not a committee. 

[Lord Liaden]

 

[Bazza]

Tony started becoming less egotistical and more looking out for others from the first Avengers film, after he went through the black hole and saw the alien fleet. That combined with Thor’s earlier comment about “big fish, small pond” would have been the motivation for Tony to:

fund the Avengers(Avengers),

build his remote control suits (IM3),

design the Project Insight Helicarriers (CA:TWS),

the Ultron project as an AI coordinator for the Iron Legion (A:AoU),

keeping the Avengers together as SHIELD was dismantled and the Avengers were the only global security & peacekeeping defence capability (Civil War). 
 

Tony didn’t have to do any of that, but he did, as he knew another interplanetary threat was headed to Earth. Even though he didn’t know it’s name, then, he later came to know its name: Thanos. 
 

Since the Battle of New York, in multiple times, as demonstrated above, Tony Stark, put the planets defence & security above his own personal needs (and to be fair, as an inhabitant of Earth, it was also selfish, as well as selfless). Tony gave the 7-8 billion people of Earth some hope that there was someone looking out for their interests. 

[slikmar]

All True Bazza, but in doing almost all of those, his EGO got in the way of common sense. Putting an unknown AI from off world into Ultron, an ultimate weapon. Not listening to Steve's argument and assuming he could control any government interference in the Avengers, then, again, not really investigating Winter Soldier's attack, but following "orders" and attacking Steve and the others. Not following up on what was going on with SHIELD and Project Insight, but instead effectively handing the 3 most technological weapons to a Bureaucracy run organization, despite his earlier run-ins with them, including butting heads with the leader of SHIELD over their secret weapon projects.

So, again, I wasn't saying Tony's reasons for doing things weren't, in some ways, altruistic, but that his own arrogance made him think that it was better for everyone and that he could keep control of it.

[Grailknight]

Just got in from seeing The Marvels. It's a solid entry, not their greatest work, but nothing to be ashamed of.

 

The action is good although Carol's power level isn't as consistent as I'd like.

 

Kamala and Monica are excellent, Carol and Fury are good, Kamala's family feels very real and the villain actually has a valid motivation if somewhat extreme methods.

 

I'll score it a 7.5 out of 10.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I understand that the girl playing Kamala does a good job, but sadly her character doesn't grow beyond squeeing fan girl.

[Grailknight]

The movie takes place over a short time period and in that time, she gets teleported at random across the universe, meets aliens for the first time and has to save the world. She goes from not doing anything more serious than the events of Ms. Marvel to having to make hard choices with the lives of thousands of people and face off against a villain with the power to break reality. In the aftermath, she begins to form her own super team. So, no, her basic personality doesn't change, but she goes through plenty of growth. The movie isn't flawless but the characters are on point.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I'm wondering if the end of Loki season two was done in an effort to cover all their bases in case they decide to veer away from Kang as their big bad.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Dr. MID-Nite

[Hermit]

1 minute ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I'm wondering if the end of Loki season two was done in an event to cover all their bases in case they decide to veer away from Kang as their big bad.

I wondered the same. It would work as an excellent way to excuse why that big bad is neutralized

[Christopher R Taylor]

There are rumbles that they are moving away from Kang as the big enemy.  He's always sucked in the comics, I cannot figure out why they wanted him as the villain for this sweep.  All of their movies and TV shows have either been canceled or delayed, my guess is they are doing a lot of retooling and rethinking after the poor performance of the last bunch of efforts.

[csyphrett]

It probably didn't help that the guy playing Kang is in legal trouble. That probably forced the production part to sit down and say we are going to need someone new and move away from the time travel parts for a while until we can get the FF up and running

CES 

[Bazza]

Rumour is that Marvel has not changed any plans regarding Kang. 

[Bazza]

 

[mattingly]

9 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I'm wondering if the end of Loki season two was done in an effort to cover all their bases in case they decide to veer away from Kang as their big bad.

 

As well-constructed as the two-seasons were, I don't think they rewrote anything to get rid of Kang. 

[Bazza]

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Rumour is that Marvel has not changed any plans regarding Kang. 

 

Time will tell which rumors are correct.  If I were in charge of MCU I'd dump him because he's a lame character.  They blew their chance on the Kree-Skrull war by making Skrull basically good guys and turning the entire thing into a slight backstory for The Marvels, so you can't really do that one.

[Lord Liaden]

IMO whether Kang is "lame" depends on the version of him we consider. I found the Kang used in the animated Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes to be impressive and a credible threat to the team. The interactions in comics between the various identities Kang used over the course of his life -- Rama-Tut, the Scarlet Centurion, Immortus -- were intriguing, and the post-credit scene of Quantumania hinted that those identities would be brought into the MCU. However, the vast number of Kang variants appearing at the end of that scene echoed the "Kang Collective," something of a joke in the comics. It also looked like a joke in the movie, with all those John Majors (and less recognizable things) jumping and screaming like baboons.

 

However, I could see that scene being a setup and springboard to the comic-book "Council of Kangs" story line, in which a group of the most capable alternate Kangs set out to eliminate all the less competent and more embarrassing versions of themselves, in order to take over their time line empires.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

I found the Kang used in the animated Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes to be impressive and a credible threat to the team.

That was the best portrayal of him I've seen but he still was a weak villain, a huge letdown from Thanos.  I mean, they shouldn't have freaking STARTED with Thanos to begin with, but still.  Kang is pretty pathetic in the MCU so far as well.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I honestly thought the MCU did a pretty piss poor job with Thanos overall. Introduced in 2012, they had 6 years to build him up as the big bad...and all they do is a brief throwaway scene in GOTG. The thrown together backstory and motivation is so poorly thought out that it makes Thanos come off as a complete idiot for not seeing the obvious flaws in his "50% plan". He's an impressive foe in Endgame, but as a character still a bit lacking. I know he was never going to be as good as in the comics, but it was still disappointing. I mean...even the cameo version from GOTG felt more like Thanos than what ended up being the final version in Infinity War.