Haymaker with bow

[ghost-angel]

If we're talking 6E; this entire discussion of SFX aside: perfectly legal by the book, no question.

[Narf the Mouse]

...Does the bow have Real Weapon?

 

That's the only game mechanics problem I can think of.

[bigdamnhero]

...Does the bow have Real Weapon?

 

That's the only game mechanics problem I can think of.

Per 6e2 p206, yes. Good point - that means under RAW the Haymaker can't do more than double the bow's base damage.

 

Edit: ...or at least not without potentially damaging the bow.

[Doc Democracy]

Of course I observe DC maximums so a 1d6k arrow will never do more than 2d6k.

In my next game I intend to try something different. I am going to allow the number of dice rolled to increase as far as a player can push it but limit damage to the maximum that could be achieved by that weapon.

 

You will never do more than 6 BODY and 30 STUN with a 1D6 killing attack. More dice just means a greater chance of hitting that maximum.

 

If it is a gritty campaign, then damage rolled above the maximum will damage the weapon as it has been pushed beyond design tolerances.

 

Doc

[pinecone]

In my next game I intend to try something different. I am going to allow the number of dice rolled to increase as far as a player can push it but limit damage to the maximum that could be achieved by that weapon.

 

You will never do more than 6 BODY and 30 STUN with a 1D6 killing attack. More dice just means a greater chance of hitting that maximum.

 

If it is a gritty campaign, then damage rolled above the maximum will damage the weapon as it has been pushed beyond design tolerances.

 

Doc

That sounds like a sound plan...if you can, I'd like to hear how it "plays" out.

[Christopher]

In your fantasy game in general would you let a archer use haymaker with a bow.

Gm discretion ? Or totally illegal ?

 

Ty guys

steph

While the word Haymaker implies using extra Strenght/Windup, it can totally include extra carefull aiming.

Nobody would argue that a Headshot is deadlier then a Torso shoot. Or in case of a attack vs the Head Hit Location, hitting the eye socket being much more viable then hitting the skull at the side. The skull is the original sloped armor after all.

There is even the optional "Offensive Haymaker", wich adds to OCV rather then damage.

 

Yes, it is totally possible to haymaker with a Bow. Or a Firearm for that mater.

The only real requirement is that the player must be able to suffer from the DCV penalty and extra phase. You can't just Haymaker everything out of combat*.

Wich ironically means you might be able to heal more during combat then outside of it (because during you can Haymaker the heal).

 

Haymakering Ranged attacks from a Ambush position would be a tricky thematic:

You could just rule it is allowed. Allowing to Haymaker without retaliation is part of the Weapon Range and Situation (having ambush), more then the Maneuver being used.

I might not allow it if it is the first phase of the ambush. Simply because there is no way a surprised foe can retaliate.

Alternatively I would rule the target is not surprised against the Haymaker and can even take active dodge maneuvers.

Or they at least get a 2nd Roll to detect the sniper (because he needs two phases). Stuff like someone noticing the Laserpointer or seeing a reflection from the aiming sight.

 

 

*Allowing this might make some feats easier, however. Like breaking through walls/Pulling vaults out of thier buildings as a Superheroic Bricks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

While the word Haymaker implies using extra Strenght/Windup, it can totally include extra carefull aiming.

..

Yes, it is totally possible to haymaker with a Bow. Or a Firearm for that mater.

 

But in a Fantasy game its almost certainly also going to be using hit locations, which is what you're describing, so I'd suggest choosing between either option: haymaker to simulate a head hit or hit locations.  Using both would turn the bow into a howitzer: x2 +4DC attack.

[Outsider]

"Extra careful aiming" is what "Set" combat maneuver is.

 

"Putting more oompf" into something is what "haymaker" is.

 

I don't know that one can "put more oompf" into an attack that is not directly powered by the character, that has an intermediary mechanical stage, if that makes sense.  As others have said, there is only so much draw available in a bow before it breaks, and there is definitely only so much propellant behind the bullet in a gun. 

 

On the other hand, it seems unfair to tell player 1 that his character "Captain Cannon" can't haymaker his 4D6 RKA, while telling player 2 that he totally can haymaker the 4d6 RKA on his character "Ensign Eyeblast" because of the special effects chosen.

 

Perhaps "Can't Be Haymakered" should be a limitation on some powers.  I don't know if it would come up often enough to rate a full -1/4 though.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perhaps "Can't Be Haymakered" should be a limitation on some powers.  I don't know if it would come up often enough to rate a full -1/4 though.

 

Probably not, but "fixed" or something like that would cover it - must be used at full power, cannot be pushed or haymakered, etc.

[Outsider]

Probably not, but "fixed" or something like that would cover it - must be used at full power, cannot be pushed or haymakered, etc.

 

Or just add those to "Beam".  But then people would complain about additional restrictions for the same old -1/4.

[Lucius]

 

And one could assume that "normal" bowfire is underfiring, not using the full draw of the bow in the interest of getting the shots off faster. Haymaker is taking the time and effort to draw the bow ALL the way before loosing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says some things bear repeating

[Outsider]

And one could assume that "normal" bowfire is underfiring, not using the full draw of the bow in the interest of getting the shots off faster. Haymaker is taking the time and effort to draw the bow ALL the way before loosing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says some things bear repeating

 

That works, but doesn't explain how one might Haymaker most firearms.  Unless you say the extra time and DCV loss comes from manually opening the bolt/cylinder/what have you, removing what is already there, and loading a special cartridge with extra powder in the casing, then firing that.   Seems like a stretch though.

[Lucius]

That works, but doesn't explain how one might Haymaker most firearms.  Unless you say the extra time and DCV loss comes from manually opening the bolt/cylinder/what have you, removing what is already there, and loading a special cartridge with extra powder in the casing, then firing that.   Seems like a stretch though.

Good point.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is chewing it over

[massey]

That works, but doesn't explain how one might Haymaker most firearms.  Unless you say the extra time and DCV loss comes from manually opening the bolt/cylinder/what have you, removing what is already there, and loading a special cartridge with extra powder in the casing, then firing that.   Seems like a stretch though.

 

[bigdamnhero]

"Extra careful aiming" is what "Set" combat maneuver is.

 

"Putting more oompf" into something is what "haymaker" is.

 

I don't know that one can "put more oompf" into an attack that is not directly powered by the character, that has an intermediary mechanical stage, if that makes sense.  As others have said, there is only so much draw available in a bow before it breaks, and there is definitely only so much propellant behind the bullet in a gun.

Yes, but that's because in Hero (as in most RPGs) accuracy and damage are completely separate and unrelated functions - if I just barely hit someone's DCV, I have the exact same damage roll as if I hit twice what I needed. But in reality, shot placement is the single biggest variable in how much damage two similar missile weapons do. A shot that hits center mass is going to do a lot more damage than one that just clips the edge of the silhouette, so to speak.

 

Looking at it from the other direction: two identical 9mm bullets hit their target. One rolls 2 Body, while the 2nd rolls 6 Body. Did the 2nd bullet have 3 times as much propellant as the first one? Of course not. So what's the difference? Where the bullet hit. The first one "barely winged him" whereas the second "nailed him right between the eyes."

 

In a perfect simulationist game, exceeding your target's DCV would add to damage to reflect this, and any maneuver/modifier that adds to accuracy (with bows, guns, etc) should also add to damage to reflect a "better" hit. I've played a few games like that, and they're usually a PITA, so I'm not proposing we add that to Hero. But the concept applies here: taking a little extra time etc. to Make Sure This One Counts. The fact that we have one maneuver called Set that adds to OCV, and another called Haymaker that adds to damage is an artificiality of the game mechanics only.

[Christopher R Taylor]

In a perfect simulationist game, exceeding your target's DCV would add to damage to reflect this, and any maneuver/modifier that adds to accuracy (with bows, guns, etc) should also add to damage to reflect a "better" hit. I've played a few games like that, and they're usually a PITA, so I'm not proposing we add that to Hero.

Yeah while intellectually I like that idea, its way too much work and too complicated to be worthwhile.

[Hyper-Man]

I think that a lot of folk's problem with this combo has to do with the actual name "Haymaker".

 

re: Accuracy vs. Damage

It is worth noting that CSL's can be used to affect either and in fact the Deadly Blow and Weapon Master Talents are now actually constructed as CSL's that are limited to only boosting damage in 6e.  This puts them in a similar relationship to martial maneuvers that give a similar damage bonus to Haymaker with better CV and time modifiers. Also, Ranged martial maneuvers exist.

 

I wonder if Haymaker was renamed to something more generic like "Alpha Strike" with the exact same mechanics would everyone still have as much of an objection to its use?

 

HM

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah while intellectually I like that idea, its way too much work and too complicated to be worthwhile.

Agreed.

[IndianaJoe3]

Yes, but that's because in Hero (as in most RPGs) accuracy and damage are completely separate and unrelated functions - if I just barely hit someone's DCV, I have the exact same damage roll as if I hit twice what I needed. But in reality, shot placement is the single biggest variable in how much damage two similar missile weapons do. A shot that hits center mass is going to do a lot more damage than one that just clips the edge of the silhouette, so to speak.

 

I've actually come at this from the other direction, using damage as a proxy for hit location. 1 BODY penetrating means a minor flesh wound, 12 means you ran him through.

[bigdamnhero]

I've actually come at this from the other direction, using damage as a proxy for hit location. 1 BODY penetrating means a minor flesh wound, 12 means you ran him through.

Right, I agree completely and I think that's how many of us handle it. The conceptual disconnect comes when you exceed the target's DCV by a ton, but get a crap damage roll: If my shot was so accurate, why did I get just a minor flesh wound?

 

And again, I'm not necessarily arguing for adding that as a mechanic because I've tried it and find it more trouble than it's worth. But it explains why Haymaker with a bow makes sense IMO.

[massey]

Right, I agree completely and I think that's how many of us handle it. The conceptual disconnect comes when you exceed the target's DCV by a ton, but get a crap damage roll: If my shot was so accurate, why did I get just a minor flesh wound?

 

And again, I'm not necessarily arguing for adding that as a mechanic because I've tried it and find it more trouble than it's worth. But it explains why Haymaker with a bow makes sense IMO.

 

You very accurately shot him in the finger.

 

Hitting by a lot doesn't necessarily mean anything.  It just means you didn't miss.  The damage roll determines how hard you hit him.

[Ndreare]

Which is an absurdity of common game mechanics, not a simulation of reality or fiction.

 

The more skilled you are in real life and in fiction, the better you will land your blows.

 

The amount of force you put behind a blow is 99% technique. 

[bigdamnhero]

Which is an absurdity of common game mechanics, not a simulation of reality or fiction.

 

The more skilled you are in real life and in fiction, the better you will land your blows.

 

The amount of force you put behind a blow is 99% technique. 

Well put.

[Ninja-Bear]

Outsider iirc (@ work at the moment) Set manuever off sets range penalty. So yes in a sense it is csreful aiming but I don't see that as exclusionary for the Haymaker being also careful aiming.

[Kesedrith]

You very accurately shot him in the finger.

 

Hitting by a lot doesn't necessarily mean anything.  It just means you didn't miss.  The damage roll determines how hard you hit him.

I have to agree with this.  From the game mechanics, all the hit roll is setting up, no matter how "well" you hit, is whether you made contact at all.  Making the required hit roll by 9 is no better or different in the least than than just barely making the hit.  Technique, weapon factors, all of that are in the damage roll.  Even a brilliantly executed head shot can just be a glancing blow.  All making OCV higher does is hedge your bet that you even make damagable contact that phase.  It's all in how you view the two steps of the mechanic.  This is why I don't care for the idea of "critical hits" being determined off of a hit roll.  That roll in no way, form, or fashion even suggests the nature of the hit; just that you did indeed hit.