unclevlad Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 The Court was unanimous in the aspect that Congress has to set the rules by which the 14th Amendment could be invoked for a federal election. The states don't have that power. The dissents come in on whether the SC conservatives went too far past that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 According to the ABC News article on my newsfeed, the 9 justices were unanimous in ruling that states can't decide who can appear on ballots for federal office because allowing it would lead to chaos. That's fair. Without a firm definition of insurrection, leaving the states to decide would lead to caprice. Five of the conservatives went further, though, in saying that only Congress can decide 14th Amendment applicability. The three liberals disagreed, saying that SCOTUS should keep its ruling as narrow as possible and leave the door open for other (federal) means of 14th Amendment application. Amy Coney Barret wrote her own concurring opinion similarly arguing for the narrowest possible ruling, but stressing how important it was that all 9 had agreed on the basic issue. Notably, SCOTUS did *not* exonerate Trump. Though the majority ruling would seem to forestall suing in the SCOTUS itself to keep Trump out on 14th Amendment grounds. Dean Shomshak Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 14 minutes ago, DShomshak said: According to the ABC News article on my newsfeed, the 9 justices were unanimous in ruling that states can't decide who can appear on ballots for federal office because allowing it would lead to chaos. As opposed to the current chaos which the decision does nothing to solve. All the SCOTUS needed to do was define insurrection. Anything else, especially this "decision", is a punt at best and a gift to Trump at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 My understanding is that this case was not about defining insurrection, it was about whether states had the right to ban candidates in a federal election from the ballot based on the Fourteenth Amendment. The SCOTUS can't make a ruling on a case they're not presented with. I do have to credit Amy Coney Barret for displaying a modicum of common sense in her opinion. I didn't think she had it in her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said: The SCOTUS can't make a ruling on a case they're not presented with. Didn't stop them this time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, Old Man said: Didn't stop them this time around. Which case are you referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 To be fair, this ruling also bars states like Texas from removing Joe Biden from the ballot because he fomented an "insurrection" at the border by not securing it. Invocation of the Fourteenth Amendment has been established as an exclusive power of the Federal Congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said: To be fair, this ruling also bars states like Texas from removing Joe Biden from the ballot because he fomented an "insurrection" at the border by not securing it. Invocation of the Fourteenth Amendment has been established as an exclusive power of the Federal Congress. That is the flip side, and why, I think, the SC ruled unanimously that the states can't define the grounds on their own. Yeah, we pick on Texas...but hey, look what Tennessee is trying to do, right now. Even if it is only state office holders...where they can. On the flip side, could we really trust, say, Cali or New York to maybe try keeping a DeSantis off the ballot? There's no legal grounds to block him...but that won't be stopping people. It'd be part of the next wave of political polarization, I'm afraid...like the impeachment process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 12 minutes ago, unclevlad said: That is the flip side, and why, I think, the SC ruled unanimously that the states can't define the grounds on their own. Yeah, we pick on Texas...but hey, look what Tennessee is trying to do, right now. Even if it is only state office holders...where they can. On the flip side, could we really trust, say, Cali or New York to maybe try keeping a DeSantis off the ballot? There's no legal grounds to block him...but that won't be stopping people. It'd be part of the next wave of political polarization, I'm afraid...like the impeachment process. But would it even matter? Far right states that wouldn't have gone for Biden anyway take him off the ballot. So? Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 1/3 of states in 1860. On top of that, for all the birtherism that we had to hear in '08 and '12, Obama was never actually removed from any ballots. Because everyone knew that birtherism was BS, and the same would apply to calling Biden an "insurrectionist". But no, the GOP bluffed, and the liberal SCOTUS justices folded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 3 minutes ago, Old Man said: But would it even matter? Far right states that wouldn't have gone for Biden anyway take him off the ballot. So? Lincoln wasn't on the ballot in 1/3 of states in 1860. On top of that, for all the birtherism that we had to hear in '08 and '12, Obama was never actually removed from any ballots. Because everyone knew that birtherism was BS, and the same would apply to calling Biden an "insurrectionist". But no, the GOP bluffed, and the liberal SCOTUS justices folded. That was '08, and Obama didn't start out as the front runner. Heck, I didn't think he could win, because there would be too much racial backlash. By the time Obama had that position, I suspect it would've been too late to try to invoke the birther argument. Plus, the lines of political behavior shifted greatly. They didn't have (or at least, feel they have) the clout to make reprisal threats work. They DARN sure do now. Last, it's plausible they would never try to kick Biden off the ballot.....until the move to kick Trump off. That opened the Pandora's Box, so they can posture about it...even though the grounds for removing Trump are notable, while the grounds they invoke are fatuous. Besides, they don't need to win these sideshows. They think they'll win the general, so as long as there's no major disruption (a serious criminal conviction)...delay is on their side. Lord Liaden and Iuz the Evil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 As far as I'm concerned, we're screwed this year. If Trump wins, that's of course really bad. If he loses, his base will lose their $#@t...possibly even to the point of major civil unrest. And of course the continuing tribalism. I'm honestly lost as to the potential solution right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 There is no short-term solution to the tribalism, because it's been fostered, nurtured, and actively encouraged for a good 30 years now. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 The solution is to not give in to despair. If Trump loses -- and I have great hope that he will -- it could get quite bad. Will it be worse than a decade of civil rights conflicts? Or a decade of great depression? Or four years of civil war? I have faith that America will eventually find its way out of whatever it faces, because it has proven itself resilient time after time. “I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo. “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” tkdguy and Iuz the Evil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 A lot of the problem is that the party of business as usual (Democrats) doesn't have answers for the problems business as usual caused. Even the re-emergence of a business as usual Republican party wouldn't help. They were part of the problem too. Something has to change - but the response to Bernie Sanders showed the obstacles to that. Even if they wanted to, Biden and Co. are incapable of the kind of reforms that could undercut the lunatic right. There is no way to genuinely make America great again. With options to the left precluded, only rightist options are available. --- Please ignore the following. I'm just being mad. The best way to restore the viability of capitalism as a whole would be to have a Really Big War. Nuclear war is still bad though. A war with China might work, but is risky. A war between Russia and the EU (with the US somehow staying out of it!) might be preferable. (Who cares if some Poles and Germans get nuked!) Then the US can swoop in to rebuild the European economies, with their competitors eliminated. So, yeah, the US needs to withdraw from NATO. This is sufficiently idiotic that it would take a Trump to do it. That's how to Make America Great Again. It's OK, I'm taking my pills now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 I've made it a policy not to stress myself over things I can do nothing about. As America's great humorist Will Rogers said, "Worry is like paying interest on a debt you may never owe." We in the rest of the world can do little to influence American politics. You in America who understand what's happening, know what you can do and have to do, and hopefully are motivated to do it. All that remains is to do it, and await the result. Everything else is waste. Iuz the Evil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 (edited) 39 minutes ago, assault said: Something has to change - but the response to Bernie Sanders showed the obstacles to that. Even if they wanted to, Biden and Co. are incapable of the kind of reforms that could undercut the lunatic right. There is no way to genuinely make America great again. Biden and Co. have surprised all of us with how much farther they've already gone than what anyone expected. Some have credited the influence of Bernie Sanders for that. But I don't think we should discount what they may still accomplish, particularly if the Democrats gain control of both houses of Congress. American society is not what it was four years ago, or eight years ago. Perceptions of the urgencies in the world have evolved, perceptions of American society and politics have evolved, and a new generation is entering the voting arena. I've lived through quite a few anticipated crises that never materialized, or were ameliorated when we finally found the wisdom and will to do so. I refuse to throw in the towel over a possibility, because the moment we give up is when we definitively lose. Edited March 5 by Lord Liaden tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 (edited) 12 hours ago, unclevlad said: There is no short-term solution to the tribalism, because it's been fostered, nurtured, and actively encouraged for a good 30 years now. Longer, I'm afraid. At least since the 70's with Nixon. And, unfortunately, I don't have the luxury to not worry. I'm a woman with a frustratingly still active uterus living in a red state. I ask about getting neutered and I'm told (condescendingly) that it's "too risky! too invasive!". And that's WITH what little privilege I have from being married, "well-off" (only because of the husband -- anything happens to him, I'm [BLEEP]ed) and white. Edited March 5 by Cygnia Old Man, Lord Liaden and Hermit 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 5 hours ago, assault said: A lot of the problem is that the party of business as usual (Democrats) doesn't have answers for the problems business as usual caused. Even the re-emergence of a business as usual Republican party wouldn't help. They were part of the problem too. Something has to change - but the response to Bernie Sanders showed the obstacles to that. Even if they wanted to, Biden and Co. are incapable of the kind of reforms that could undercut the lunatic right. There is no way to genuinely make America great again. With options to the left precluded, only rightist options are available. --- Please ignore the following. I'm just being mad. The best way to restore the viability of capitalism as a whole would be to have a Really Big War. Nuclear war is still bad though. A war with China might work, but is risky. A war between Russia and the EU (with the US somehow staying out of it!) might be preferable. (Who cares if some Poles and Germans get nuked!) Then the US can swoop in to rebuild the European economies, with their competitors eliminated. So, yeah, the US needs to withdraw from NATO. This is sufficiently idiotic that it would take a Trump to do it. That's how to Make America Great Again. It's OK, I'm taking my pills now... Enjoy your pills, but I don't blame you for your frustration. NATO, or rather, its continued existence, worries me a great deal. Trump will do his best to break it up. Congress has made it harder on him, but Trump is no respecter of law, or anything that isn't mafia don level power. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I sure hope NATO has a plan ready to gently transfer as much control over it from American influences to European ones in case of that. I don't just mean paying their fair share. It isn't making the news, but Germany and other members who WERE behind have really stepped up their spending. Enlightened Self interest is a virtue in times like these. I mean taking over it more period so that if the US backs out entirely, NATO can survive. Putin hates it, which is enough reason to keep it around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Eh, climate change will finish humans off soon anyway, try to find happiness where you can if you can.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 I look forward to visiting this topic again in a year. assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Voted, civic duty accomplished Hermit, Starlord, tkdguy and 2 others 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 3 hours ago, Starlord said: try to find happiness where you can if you can.... climate change will finish humans off soon anyway Mission accomplished Iuz the Evil and Starlord 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Too good not to share: DShomshak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 6 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said: Voted, civic duty accomplished Likewise. (Though here in Washington, we vote by mail, so there's no "special day.") My 91-year-old mother, likewise. In other Washingtonian political news, three initiatives pushed by Republicans have cleared our Democrat-dominated legislature. Majorities thought they were good ideas, or at least popular ideas. While we have our right-wing wackadoodles, we do still have a few Republicans who still try to present a somewhat sane alternative to Seattle liberals. Dean Shomshak tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 I mailed my ballot last month. Later today I will take part in a letter and postcard writing event to help get out the vote. Ternaugh, Old Man and Lord Liaden 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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