Civilians on a Starfleet vessel: what do they do?

[ghost-angel]

I know what the Navy does. The Navy also doesn't have vessels as large as most starships and I was trying to give suggestions on how you keep a civilian crew busy as well as a military crew on a giant space frisbee in a shoddily put together universe with poor continuity and counter-acting ideas of what society looks like any given story arc.

[Zeropoint]

Oh, in THAT case it's easy. You just store all the characters you're not using in quantum non-observational limbo until they're relevant to the story, at which point they spring back into full existence when the camera points at them.

[NateH415]

We had plenty of civilian contractors, when we would come out of yard periods on the Enterprise CVN-65, and even more on a preform. Like when I was on the Stennis. 

[Spence]

On 3/4/2018 at 5:49 PM, ghost-angel said:

I know what the Navy does. The Navy also doesn't have vessels as large as most starships and I was trying to give suggestions on how you keep a civilian crew busy as well as a military crew on a giant space frisbee in a shoddily put together universe with poor continuity and counter-acting ideas of what society looks like any given story arc.

erp...  My last cruise ( Nimitz class carrier)we had 6000+ embarked between ship company, the air wing and other assorteds.  A Wasp class LHD has a compliment of 1200 with 1850+ Marines.  The Galaxy class crew is only few over 1000, though they can double it for and emergency.  Trek ships are small compared to surface warships.  Of course one is fiction and the real ones don't need to make air and gravity ?

[dmjalund]

Trek ships have much more space per person than a typical Navy ship

[Sundog]

Only in Next Gen. Look at Kirk's cabin in TOS.

[ghost-angel]

Given the size differences - all the information on modern US Warship crew complements adds to this discussion is that either 1) the ST writers have woefully underestimated the amount of crew needed to work that ship or 2) The future is pretty hyper-automated, and maintenance free.

[Spence]

6 minutes ago, ghost-angel said:

Given the size differences - all the information on modern US Warship crew complements adds to this discussion is that either 1) the ST writers have woefully underestimated the amount of crew needed to work that ship or 2) The future is pretty hyper-automated, and maintenance free.

 

Odd, it was in response to your statement of self proclaimed expertise, I guess it didn't meet the narrative so it will be dismissed.

 

Anyway, it is fiction, so have fun and enjoy. 

[ghost-angel]

I never claimed expertise, just knowledge. People can have knowledge without claiming expertise...

 

I also (apparently wrongly) assumed that ST ships had a relatively similar sized crew ratio compared to modern warships, and I know crew have cleaning stations to keep the ship clean; I was suggesting extending that to the civilian portion - but apparently if I don't say something with an overly intense level of near hyperbolic precision comprehension just gets lost.. (the implication was that since they never actually showed anyone doing the cleaning, it could be civilian, crew, or both, with stations).

 

After looking up on various ST wikis the complement of the Enterprise D (just chose the most known one) and the size vs literally any modern warship, the crew is of comparable or significantly smaller size for a ship that is at least an order of magnitude larger - so either it is automated, or the tiny number of crew clean an inordinately large amount of space, or have civilian help (as per the question asked).

 

I suppose we can get back to the argument of wether the Federation is civilian, military, or run by clowns who can't do either.

[Ragitsu]

There's this nugget of (half-remembered?) information nestled in my head that tells me Picard outright stated that "the ship cleans itself".

[massey]

In "Up the Long Ladder" (the episode with the drunken Irish people), somebody mentions that the ship has a self-cleaning function when the colonists set a fire in the shuttle bay.

[Ragitsu]

On 4/1/2018 at 6:47 PM, massey said:

In "Up the Long Ladder" (the episode with the drunken Irish people), somebody mentions that the ship has a self-cleaning function when the colonists set a fire in the shuttle bay.

 

That must come in very handy on the holodeck.

[ghost-angel]

stupid utopia's putting everyone out of work.

[massey]

7 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

That must come in very handy on the holodeck.

 

Especially after Riker has been there.

[Old Man]

On 3/26/2018 at 3:51 PM, ghost-angel said:

Given the size differences - all the information on modern US Warship crew complements adds to this discussion is that either 1) the ST writers have woefully underestimated the amount of crew needed to work that ship or 2) The future is pretty hyper-automated, and maintenance free.

 

We know the answer is 2), but just to pile on, the 14000-ton Zumwalt class "destroyer" has a complement of 147.  That's compared to the (official) complement of 5600 for the 100000-ton Stennis, or 2800 for the 45000-ton Iowa.

[Funk Thompson]

Cause problems for Captain Picard?

[dmjalund]

they're ballast for when the Enterprise needs to take fast turns at high warp

[Ragitsu]

Who else is he going to impress whenever he executes the Picard Maneuver? Those under his chain of command (Starfleet personnel, in other words) are duty bound to smile and nod. Civilians aren't beholden to the same code of conduct; they're free to be frank.

[bubba smith]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 6:59 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Weren’t the teachers civilians? And bartenders?

as I recall the bartenders were

[archer]

Laundry 

housekeeping

food prep

social event coordinator 

chaplain

nurses and paramedics 

many specialist doctors might not be commissioned officers or even fleet

technicians, repairmen,  and mechanics (especially for damage control after a battle)

science specialists for certain missions 

first contact specialists

barber/stylist

spies

Children’s teachers

Teachers for continuing education for adults. It could be cross-training in other aspects of starship operation. Or it could be pottery, painting, history, or anything else a college might offer. There’s a limited number of places to go inside a starship and a limited number of people to interact with. Keeping people busy in their off hours would be a challenge on long missions.

[SteveZilla]

At least some of the Enterprise-D occupants do get their hair cut by a barber...

[DShomshak]

 

Thread necromancy, woo!

 

I am not such a fan of the ST franchise as to parse through every line of every episode in every series, plus assorted comments by Roddenberry. And as others have pointed out, the portrayal often seemed inconsistent, which is sort of inevitable when so many people are involved in developing a setting.

 

I will say merely that when TNG came out and we learned that the Enterprise had children on board, I thought that was, wel, insanely irresponsible. Even if Starfleet isn't exclusively, or even primarily military, the ship is going to be in lots of situations of great danger. From our perspective, this is necessary for an action-adventure series. In-universe, either the Powers That Be are naive unto idiocy... or they have other reasons.

 

The thoroughly un-canonical rationale I devised was that major starships such as the Enterprise have many functions. They are warships of terrible power when they have to be -- in one ep, Picard had the Enterprise doing surgery on a geologically unstable planet. They are embassies, research labs, and much more.

 

And they are arks. The Federation has its people whose job is to imagine the worst and prepare for it. They have foreseen the possibility of threats such as the Borg. If the Federation faces destruction, captains like Picard have a standing order to flee as far and fast as they can in search of safety where they can start anew.

 

To this end, starships carry far more people than they really need. The crew, Starfleet and auxiliary, are breeding stock. (Which also gives an in-universe reason why the Enterprise's crew is almost all human, or close enough as makes no never-mind.) The ship, as a mobile small town, also carries all the people with all the skills needed to rebuild an advanced society in one generation. The Federation isn't leaving it all up to the computer archives.

 

This is also why Starfleet personnel are encouraged to have outside interests, from Picard's archeology to Riker's playing the trombone.

 

Most Federation citizens probably don't know this. But I would expect that all command staff in Starfleet would know.

 

Like I said -- this is throughly non-canonical, and Roddenberry probably would have hated such a dark notion. But I find it satisfactory.

 

So, getting to the OP's question: The civilians do just about everything you might need to maintain a small town, even if it seems unnecessary for a starship backed by a society as huge as the Federation. And if anyone asks why they are there, the captain just smiles vaguely and says, "Well, you never know." And perhaps tells an anecdote about a time when a starship actually needed an accountaint despite having fully capable computers, or a cook despite replicators. Or even a painter or a poet.

 

Dean Shomshak

[archer]

Some rooms were clearly carpeted.

 

Have you ever seen replacement carpet laid down by someone who doesn't know what they're doing?

 

Try calling your warp specialist maintenance man and have him re-carpet Ten-Forward. See what you get.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

Thread necromancy, woo!

 

I am not such a fan of the ST franchise as to parse through every line of every episode in every series, plus assorted comments by Roddenberry. And as others have pointed out, the portrayal often seemed inconsistent, which is sort of inevitable when so many people are involved in developing a setting.

 

I will say merely that when TNG came out and we learned that the Enterprise had children on board, I thought that was, wel, insanely irresponsible. Even if Starfleet isn't exclusively, or even primarily military, the ship is going to be in lots of situations of great danger. From our perspective, this is necessary for an action-adventure series. In-universe, either the Powers That Be are naive unto idiocy... or they have other reasons.

 

Rise I say, RISE!

 

OK,

 

I am also not one of those people who find it necessary to memorize every line said and every shot filmed so I can impress people with trivia.

 

Yes, I am with you on the Kids thing.

But there is another angle you may not have considered.  

 

The first being that the Enterprise as shown on TNG is not a representative example of Starfleet at its normal.  A while back I got a wild hair and did a little digging.   Luckily there are plenty of detail obsessed people out there I was able to answer my question by filtering through their work  

My conclusion was this.

 

Starfleet does not have children or non-Starfleet dependents on its ships.

Some Starfleet starships may and sometime do have families with children on board.  

The TNG Enterprise was a dog and pony show ship, its primary purpose was to prance around and play diplomat.  The ship class was primarily a science or exploration ship.  The other ships we see children aboard or hear about (like Cisco barely escaping the Saratoga) refer to science ships.  The Miranda class is a science ship.

 

Other Starfleet ships, especially those that are formally assigned to security patrols in potentially hostile areas do not. 

Yes, we see the Enterprise (TNG) doing those missions, but usually they it is because they are responding to another vessel or they happen to be the nearest available.   Only during an active war do we see her one routine war patrol and in those episodes (the few there were), the show made a point of evacuating non-Starfleet.

 

My point is if you only see the Love Boat, you will think that luxury liners are the normal conditions at sea.  Anyone that bases their ideas on a vacation cruise would be in for a rude awakening if they found themselves underway on a working ship. 

 

Also, your thoughts that a Starfleet ship being able to be a starter colony is not that far off.  The early (before Paramount) trek ship plans all showed the saucer section separation as being a one time emergency with the saucer able to travel at impulse speed until it landed.  Once down it could not lift again and was supposed to serve as initial shelter.  I always found it fun to look through the deckplans and in the original ones you found all kinds of stuff that could only be to allow a crew to survive if down. One of my really old deck plans even had a section in the lower saucer called "agricultural equipment storage".

 

Early Trek (before Paramount) had some cool ideas that they did not bring forward. 

[Jhamin]

At the risk of rewarding thead necromancy or reiterating a point already made:

Regarding why they are there:

Long ago I got a reproduction series bible for season 2.  It said that given the years long missions and the months away from port, Starfleet had recognized that the mental welfare of the crew was really important and should be managed the same way their health was, which is why the ship's psychiatrist was a senior officer.  They had also decided that mental & emotional welfare was improved by having their families there so people got to bring their families with them.

 

As for what they do?

As others have said there are bartenders, barbers, botanists (who are probably enjoying all the new science being done) school teachers and similar functionaries.  I'm also wondering how many 24th century humans actually have what we would consider jobs anyway?  Federation society is post scarcity, heavily automated, and with basically free energy.  It is implied repeatedly that members of Starfleet are pretty exceptional, driven people who chose to go to Starfleet Academy & then risk their lives on spaceships rather than just hanging out on earth enjoying "Paradise".  (Which is what Earth is repeatedly referred too as).  I'm betting lots of those civilians are doing jobs that we can't conceive of for 15 hours a week (which is full time in the 24th century) and doing whatever they want with the rest of their life
I know my job as a Systems Engineer would be incomprehensible to 90% of the people living in 1721.  No reason we should understand what they do.