5th Edition Renaissance?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Honestly I don't much like the Champions Universe setting either, and think that the approach of moving time forward from a fixed date and making so many significant changes doesn't blend well with a comic book genre but.... its a pre-set easy to use world for champions that has decades of development and tons of support and info.  So its dumb not to use and it can be turned into something pretty striking.  As Liaden notes, its very well developed and detailed.  And almost all the adventures plug into it very easily. 

 

So we have a setting, and we have adventures, we just need to update, repackage them, and string them into a campaign for GMs to just drop players into.  A few campaigns like that and we might see some real momentum. Its just a matter of doing it, but I'm not gonna put off my fantasy setting any longer to push more Champions stuff, even if it pays better.  Once I get the setting and a few more adventures out, it will be all ready for people.

 

Because I think Fantasy Hero deserves some love and attention as well.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Here's an ugly thought---

 

though before I go any further, for the purposes of full disclosure:

 

I really, really, _really_ don't like the published setting.  

 

So there; that's out there.

 

Now moving beyond that:

 

Howzabout building a setting that is different from the one that HERO doesn't actually own anymore?  Something that can be entirely theirs, or at least available not at the whim of a videogame company?

 

 

 

As you probably picked up on, my opinion of the published setting differs from yours, but there's no need for us to agree on that.

 

Ownership rights to the Champions Universe really isn't an issue, practically speaking. Steve Long brought his lawyer skills to bear on the sale contract. DOJ Inc. retains the rights in perpetuity to publish books using that setting, subject to approval of specifics by Cryptic Studios (or whoever owns them -- the company was just sold again recently). However, Cryptic seems to have ignored developments on the TTRPG side of the franchise for years, letting Hero Games publish what they want. Truth to tell, Champions Online isn't receiving much attention or support from their corporate masters these days, either. Moreover, if the MMORPG company folds Champions Online, the IP rights revert back to DOJ.

[Duke Bushido]

Well crap.

 

We're stuck with it.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Well crap.

 

We're stuck with it.

 

 

Yes, but that does not preclude the introduction of new material, and new villains. The background has more than one city. If The Champions are like the Avengers, then who is their X-Men? Their Defenders?, Their Fantastic Four? (The only DC I read was their War and humor comics, and the Teen Titans, so I don’t have many references for their product).

 

However, right there you have a way of indicating power level and flavor, by putting what ever team on the cover.  With a Defenders analogue on the cover, you would have street level villains, organized crime, and the occasional low level strangeness. 
 

With the X-Men on the cover, you had threats by large organizations, behind the scenes government intrigues, villains of a higher threat level individually, and the occasional cosmic threat (plus a lot of soap opera, and a mass of NPCs).
 

With the Avengers or Fantastic Four on the cover, you get the cosmic threats, the Alien Invasion of the year, and adventures off world or off in other dimensions. 
 

What this would require is shuffling Heroes and villains around into the proper cities and power levels and flavors, and build the meta plots from there. 
 

On an aesthetic subject, we cannot settle with the art. Unfortunately, Albert Deschanes has passed on, and Patric Zircher has gone full pro, but we need artists than can draw characters who can act as well as fight, realistic backgrounds, and consistent NPC likenesses. With the decline of the direct market, some comic artists have become available for somewhat reasonable prices, and it never hurts to inquire about rates. 
 

On the whole, I think it’s doable, with some thought and planning. But to succeed one has to take a systematic approach to keep the teams, cities and adventures organized (even by cover dress) so that the customer can find the right flavor and power level for their players. 
 

 

[HeroGM]

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Yes, but that does not preclude the introduction of new material, and new villains. The background has more than one city. If The Champions are like the Avengers, then who is their X-Men? Their Defenders?, Their Fantastic Four? (The only DC I read was their War and humor comics, and the Teen Titans, so I don’t have many references for their product).

 

However, right there you have a way of indicating power level and flavor, by putting what ever team on the cover.  With a Defenders analogue on the cover, you would have street level villains, organized crime, and the occasional low level strangeness. 
 

With the X-Men on the cover, you had threats by large organizations, behind the scenes government intrigues, villains of a higher threat level individually, and the occasional cosmic threat (plus a lot of soap opera, and a mass of NPCs).
 

With the Avengers or Fantastic Four on the cover, you get the cosmic threats, the Alien Invasion of the year, and adventures off world or off in other dimensions. 
 

What this would require is shuffling Heroes and villains around into the proper cities and power levels and flavors, and build the meta plots from there.

 

There are analogues to several of the classic comic hero teams in the CU right now. Just within the United States, I can think of half a dozen which have been fully written up and game-statted in Hero publications, and nearly a dozen others whose members have been named and briefly described, based in multiple cities across the country. That doesn't include solo heroes, or heroes and hero teams operating in other countries, which the books feature a wide selection of.

 

As for villains, the 6E Champions Villains trilogy alone features over three hundred of them, of varying power levels, accompanied by full-color art (albeit the quality of that art is highly variable, persuant to your next point below). Few of them have any location specified, so could be placed wherever desired.

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

On an aesthetic subject, we cannot settle with the art. Unfortunately, Albert Deschanes has passed on, and Patric Zircher has gone full pro, but we need artists than can draw characters who can act as well as fight, realistic backgrounds, and consistent NPC likenesses. With the decline of the direct market, some comic artists have become available for somewhat reasonable prices, and it never hurts to inquire about rates.

 

Remember several of those early 4E Champions books with glorious cover art by George Perez? George recently announced his retirement, but I doubt DOJ could afford him even if he was still active. Long-time Hero stalwart Storn Cook is still working, of course, but I don't know his price point either. But the Fraim brothers have done fine commissions for Hero products a decade past. Artists are around, but as always money is a major consideration.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Art is the sticking point, its very, very expensive to kit out a book with good art.  Especially in color.

 

Mind you, its a good investment for a high quality cover.  Great art can move a book, and using a respected, beloved artist to give you a good comic book feeling cover can make a huge difference.  That 4th edition Champions line of top comic book artists was a major investment of cash, but well worth it in the end.  Its just someone has to HAVE that cash to begin with.

 

And I use that term "investment" deliberately.  You have to sell enough of a product to pay for the cost of production.  And you have to be reasonably sure that you sold enough extra of the product to justify that cost.  This is a business, not just a hobby.

 

Oh, and a way of contacting actual comic book artists, who are notoriously difficult to reach.  Plus, they usually have a huge workload.  Remember: these guys are expected to pound out a full 22+ page comic every month, and I can tell you from personal experience, that is a seriously challenging task even without any side projects.

 

Ideally you find a young, amazingly talented newcomer or someone who is trying to break in (like they did with Zircher) who can pound out some great looking stuff without costing a mint... or taking months.  As a former freelance illustrator I can assure you that we're notoriously slow and procrastinate a lot.

[zslane]

During all my most active years of playing in various Champions campaigns, we never used any published superhero settings. The settings, such as they were, were always "home brew", at least in the sense that they were not the Champions Universe, they were not DC, and they were not Marvel. They were just "the real world", but with superheroes and supervillains added. Of course many (but not all) villains and organizations were taken from the Champions supplements in order to save time, but the CU timeline was never used, unique CU cities/locations were never used, and the backstories of the villains were pretty much just ignored. The basic structure of play each week was: hear about the new crisis, investigate the crisis, stop the bad guys in a big fight at the end. Wash, rinse, repeat. Each session was like a single issue of a comic book that was not part of some over-arching plotline. Naturally, all of this pre-dated the whole Crisis Comic Book model of massive serialized crossover storytelling that has ruined comics (IMO), and maybe people have forgotten how to play their campaigns any other way. But when it comes to superheroes, a detailed setting with a new large-scale crisis plotline every year is a dubious and unappealing idea in my view. But maybe that's just me and nobody else wants to play silver/bronze age style supers anymore.

[Scott Ruggels]

44 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Oh, and a way of contacting actual comic book artists, who are notoriously difficult to reach.  Plus, they usually have a huge workload.  Remember: these guys are expected to pound out a full 22+ page comic every month, and I can tell you from personal experience, that is a seriously challenging task even without any side projects.

 

Oh there are a number of available, but yes, rates would have to be negotiable.  As for contacting them, it's a lot easier than you imagine, though it would involve dipping one's toes into... (shudder) Twitter.  Also some are contactable on Art Center, and other galleries.

 

44 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Ideally you find a young, amazingly talented newcomer or someone who is trying to break in (like they did with Zircher) who can pound out some great looking stuff without costing a mint... or taking months.  As a former freelance illustrator I can assure you that we're notoriously slow and procrastinate a lot.

Look at portfolios carefully, before accepting new artists, though, as some might be good at certain subjects, and fall apart with others.

 

As a Working Freelance artist, I resemble that remark!!!

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

During all my most active years of playing in various Champions campaigns, we never used any published superhero settings. The settings, such as they were, were always "home brew", at least in the sense that they were not the Champions Universe, they were not DC, and they were not Marvel.

 

When were your active years? I sense this was mostly before the 2010s? People always have the option to home brew and house rule, but very few have the time any more, especially any lengthy preparations. This Is why I believe the shift to published materials was so pronounced, that and the influx of "new players" brought on by Critical Roll and such. People don't have a lot of time for imagination any more.

 

 

1 hour ago, zslane said:

 

...Naturally, all of this pre-dated the whole Crisis Comic Book model of massive serialized crossover storytelling that has ruined comics (IMO), and maybe people have forgotten how to play their campaigns any other way. But when it comes to superheroes, a detailed setting with a new large-scale crisis plotline every year is a dubious and unappealing idea in my view. But maybe that's just me and nobody else wants to play silver/bronze age style supers anymore.

 I do not disagree that comics have become bad in the last five to seven years, and the readership has fallen off a cliff. Knowledge of Superheroes these days has more to do with movies than comics, and knowledge of Silver and Bronze Age comics are with people over 40 years old.  Most of the readership of these forums are of that age, oir above. I doubt that the "new players" are.

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 If The Champions are like the Avengers, then who is their X-Men? Their Defenders?, Their Fantastic Four?

 

 

Brother Scott, I don't even know who the _Defenders'_ Defenders are, and until I drifted back to this board, I thought the Fantastic Four was Roger Corman's attempt to break into modern sarcasm-based comedy via superhero deconstruction.

 

The only thing I know about the Avengers is that it was a series of three superhero movies that didn't really trip any switches for me outside of "ooh--!  Pretty special effects!"  (Seriously: the CGI effects were amazing), and they served to reinforce something I have said for years that no one really wants to hear:  The only way to make martial artists and "skilled normals" a relevant part of a genuine super-powered team is to make sure that the party is split pretty much all the time, which is the antithesis of a good RPG session, at least when it becomes a habit.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

What this would require is shuffling Heroes and villains around into the proper cities and power levels and flavors, and build the meta plots from there. 

 

I have always felt that meta plot lines were more the domain of scenarios, adventures, and the campaigns that contain them, and should not be hardwired into the setting---

 

 

However---

 

I also think this is a completely different conversation, so I won't muddy things up with more exposition on that.   

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

On an aesthetic subject, we cannot settle with the art.

 

Agreed.

 

 

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Unfortunately, Albert Deschanes has passed on,

 

That's a huge loss, not just to gaming, but to style in general.  I had no idea.

 

 

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

and Patric Zircher has gone full pro, but we need artists than can draw characters who can act as well as fight, realistic backgrounds, and consistent NPC likenesses. With the decline of the direct market, some comic artists have become available for somewhat reasonable prices, and it never hurts to inquire about rates. 

 

 

There's that Ruggels guy; his stuff has come a _long_ way since doing that illustration for --- was the the Black Queen?  The Queen of Hearts?  The character's name escapes me at the moment, but the picture is fresh in my head: the Harley Quinn before there was a Harley Quinn-- the one who tried to infiltrate the Card Shark's organization and went full-on nuts.  Oh-- and those asteroid pictures in... Was it Space Gamer?  JTAS?  It was Traveller-related; I recall that.  

 

Anyway, his stuff is pretty damned good, I think. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

4 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

When were your active years? I sense this was mostly before the 2010s?

 

 

Z, you are absolutely not wrong: I prefer home brew myself, but I also know _why_ I prefer it.  Scott's question is a good one, though I would push that date back even further. Up-thread we had a discussion of just how not having a published setting was not only common, once upon a time, it was the absolute _norm_!    I can't think of a single 70s- era game that had a setting outside of Baker's earliest attempts to do something with Tekumel (no idea why Tekumel has never really hit it big; it very really had an entire lifetime of development behind it).  The bulk of the well-known Traveller setting wasn't even done by Marc Miller-- the most popular stuff was done by a volunteer group (who lost their shirts, very nearly, with over a decade of money-losing investment in publishing)-- was it DGP?  Is that right?  Eh-- to many years....    The practice was so common in the building of the "official Traveller setting" that people used to petition for land grants in a fiction universe!  (No; I am not making that up).  Miller had actual documents drawn up and would award various people (after sampling their writing) worlds, systems, sectors, etc-- signing them as Strephon or various other dignitaries (I would love to have one-- not for anything I did, but just as a wall hanging for the game room  ).  I have read quotes attributed to Miller (no; I have no way to verify them, though having watched him Referee a Traveller game once, I can completely believe that he would have said it) that there were large parts of the by-then-official setting that he himself didn't even like.   

 

The Fantasy Trip was literally two map battle games shoved into a box with some exposition about adventuring and advancement.  That was it.  No setting; no plot lines-- just "see what you can do with this" and have fun. 

 

 

And that's a _lot_ to do with why I prefer homebrew:  in the early days, it was all we had!  Homebrew or, if everyone was together and you hadn't had time to really throw something together, either break out the board games or grab a handful of NPCs and run an out-of--story skirmish session or other "practice," because there wasn't really anything you could just fall back on.  The gaming magazines became something of a Godsend in those moments-- you had probably read one or two adventures published within on and could tweak it in a hurry.   More often than not, though, you didn't have the time to do that our, being young and haughty, you just refused.  I know I did, and at this point in my life, I can accept that it was just a stupid way to feel about it:  I let some nonsensical notion that doing such was beneath me deprive us of a gaming an instead we'd spend the next few hours figuring out rules for four-player chess.  (fun fact:  It does not rock.  It works, but it does not rock.  What does rock is having a roll-off when capturing pieces in 2-player chess: 2d6, with modifiers based on piece type and number of pieces being used to threaten.  Beat target number and take the opponent.  Fail and he takes you.)

 

Compounding the problem was that when published settings became available-- as they crept and trickled onto the market, and in some cases-- like Traveller and non-Greyhawk D and D-- as they were compiled and canonized and beaten into a single extensive backgrounds, it either had no bearing on your existing campaign or actively contradicted what you had already established, making it easier (and less expensive) to just keep not using it.  In the worst-case scenarios (like, say, a group that new next to nothing about comic books being presented with a comics-modeled setting), everything would have to be reset- in some cases, even favorite characters and NPCs and location, entire campaigns would have to be scrapped, and everything started all over.   Not only is this unattractive, but even players balk at it when it means at best having to rework beloved characters of retcon cherished adventure moments.

 

 

I have, since about 2005 or so, come to have a few Traveller games that feature at least the outlying areas of the Third Imperium (avoiding the introduction of aliens, _period_.  My play started with 1e: there was no setting; there were no aliens unless the GM made them, and frankly, at the time I rather liked the idea that humans were alone in space.  We set the adventures "way off in the future," giving us hundreds of terraformed worlds, and trillions upon trillions of humans scattered amongst the stars, and we liked it.  My Traveller HERO/Champions game-- running since the late 80s, is a bit different, because it was a different group, and my not-at-all-Traveller Space Opera HERO/Champions game was meant to model Space Opera, but....  well, you might notice there hasn't been a lot published for that in recent decades. 

 

Crud-- way, way off course here..    Sorry for that.       

 

Anyway, We talked a lot about the importance / unimportance of store-bought settings up-thread, and while no one is suggesting that we force everyone to use a particular setting, the trend in gaming overall, particularly with new gamers, which not just HERO Games, but the entire hobby has need of, prefer-- for whatever reason-- to be able to buy a book, open it, and shake an entire world loose and pour it onto the table.  For what it's worth, I found the last iteration of the Champions setting to actually be too stinking _big_ to do that, at least all at once, which actually kind of paves the way for smaller setting books, at least for those gamers wanting to be 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I do not disagree that comics have become bad in the last five to seven years, and the readership has fallen off a cliff. Knowledge of Superheroes these days has more to do with movies than comics, and knowledge of Silver and Bronze Age comics are with people over 40 years old.  Most of the readership of these forums are of that age, oir above. I doubt that the "new players" are.

 

 

I have asked before for definitions of the "ages" of comics and the results have been....  inconsistent, at best.   So I still don't know what it means, except that apparently the industry or the fandom (or both) are in the habit of pretending that certain stylistic changes occurred on very specific dates.  It doesn't matter, though, because at this age, I'm probably not going to start reading them anyway.     

True story:

 

Based on the fandom on this board, and based on comments elsewhere, when my kids were much younger, I wanted to "pave the way" for gaming by introducing them to sci-fi and comic books, etc.  I can't possibly have biased them, because I know diddly-over-squat about comics, right?  I took them to comic stores and let them pick what they wanted.

 

They hated them.

 

I tried again, with less investment, using an online method for buying comics (Play Books, actually, because it was the default for my phone and their tablets).   Anything from the 70s and 80s, they absolutely loved.  Stuff from further back is hit-and-miss, though the Flash was a consistent hit.   Anything after the 80s, the very early nineties, they have absolute zero interest in, going so far as to call it "just stupid crap and whining" and "it's like reading those TV shows Nana likes"  (Nana is into those angst-riddled soap operas that come on in the upper cable channels or late at night).

 

And if anyone is interested, Firestorm is hit-and-miss, and Spider Girl, the Blue Devil, and the original Captain Marvel ("Shazam!") are their personal favorites, even as they move through their early teens.  I have no idea who comic books are marketed toward today, but apparently it's house-bound angst-junkies in their mid-eighties.  Not the prime audience for an RPG, but who knows, right?)

 

 

[Jhamin]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

During all my most active years of playing in various Champions campaigns, we never used any published superhero settings. The settings, such as they were, were always "home brew", at least in the sense that they were not the Champions Universe, they were not DC, and they were not Marvel. 

 

Just to set a counterexample: I maintain a subscription to Paizo's Pathfinder adventure path because it's just so damn useful to anyone running Pathfinder games, and outside of that the last $100 I spent on gaming related stuff was all toward buying Superhero RPG adventures.  Green Ronin publishing has a dozen or so 20 page adventures and I've bought all of them.  Fainting Goat games has several big collections of mini-adventures, which I have also bought a ton of.

I basically either create Hero Stats for the characters that appear or I substitute a Champions Universe equivalent. 

 

Settings I got.  Genres I got.  Even Villains I got.  Stuff to do with them is the eternal need.

The Champions Universe is vast and pretty well detailed.  I don't need more, and rebooting a new universe is great and all but so what?  There are a zillion of them and a new unified theory for where super powers come from doesn't help anyone actually play.

 

I play every week, and I homebrew a ton, but man it's nice to just have an adventure to slot in.  I just ran a Mutants & Masterminds adventure where an evil plant guy starts using energy drinks to turn local college athletes into berserkers, changed it to Highschool for my Ravenswood PCs & substituted Thorn for the M&M guy & away I went.  I can come up with my own adventure, I do all the time, but the money this one cost me was well worth the price when work ran long & I didn't get time to do it all myself.

 

It would be *amazing* to have some official Hero games adventures.  I've mined out the classic ones.  I bought Red Cobra (which is tonally all over the place & comes of as contemptuous of it's own story but maybe can be salvaged), I've looked at the revamp of the Isle of Dr Destroyer but I own the old one and was never convinced it was worth buying again (the old one is way too grim for my playstyle anyway).  My group played the heck out of everything that came out for 5e (Sharper than a Serpent's tooth, Battlegrounds & so on)

 

If Hero Games put out a series of adventures that actually took place in the Champions Universe that would be 100x more useful to me than a book about what is going on in Australia or a deep dive into Until's space station.

[Duke Bushido]

Red Cobra?

 

[Jhamin]

22 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Red Cobra?

 

Its an officially licensed adventure.  It was up on the front page when it came out a year or so ago.

[SCUBA Hero]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Art is the sticking point, its very, very expensive to kit out a book with good art.  Especially in color.

 

Mind you, its a good investment for a high quality cover.  Great art can move a book, and using a respected, beloved artist to give you a good comic book feeling cover can make a huge difference.  That 4th edition Champions line of top comic book artists was a major investment of cash, but well worth it in the end.  Its just someone has to HAVE that cash to begin with.

 

And I use that term "investment" deliberately.  You have to sell enough of a product to pay for the cost of production.  And you have to be reasonably sure that you sold enough extra of the product to justify that cost.  This is a business, not just a hobby.

 

Okay, I've been following both this thread and the To-Hit thread, rolled it around in my head for a while, and I'm throwing this out there:  Several folks think (and I agree) that a single book that has a playable superhero game, rather than a toolkit to make a game, would sell and bring new players.

 

Existing examples of single book Hero games:

• Lucha Libre Hero
• Narosia
• PS238
• Traveller Hero
• Western Hero
• Widening Gyre

I propose we test letting other people put their money where we think they would...

 

As a *very rough* first draft:

 

Product: Four-Color Champions (working title).

 

Purpose: Bring new players into Champions. Hopefully get them interested in broader Hero System products.

 

Method: A single book, BBB sized or smaller, that contains rules needed for Champions ("Powered by Hero System!"), plus tips on how to play, power levels, a sample hero team and villains, including an organization (Viper?) and master villain (Dr. Destroyer? Mechanon? New?), a city setting developed enough to start a campaign (either Millenium City or a new [to Hero] city), and a ready to run scenario that launches the players and GM into that city. Brief info on the world. Concentrate on four-color, MCU-style power levels and play style in a present-day world setting, don't try to cover everything.  The MCU movies are very popular, try to pick up on that wave of interest.

 

Funding: Kickstarter. Start with a nice color cover and minimal B&W interior artwork; stretch goals would add more artwork and then upgrade it to color. Mention (and have) plans for future supplements: more linked adventures, a city development book; also to use Kickstarter.  Maybe have a second adventure, linked to the first, at a high enough stretch goal to fund it.

 

Staff:  Writer. Editor. Proof-reader. Artist(s). Project coordinator.  There are several pro-level, accomplished Hero authors.  Christopher Taylor is concentrating on his fantasy setting and I respect that.  Derek Hiemforth.  Shadowcat.  I am neither a writer nor an editor, but I can proof-read and coordinate.

 

This project requires Hero Games buy-in and approval. Possibly re-use and modify text from Champions Complete and other previous Champions products.

 

What does Herodom Assembled think?

[Duke Bushido]

I think you've got it all nailed down, save for the funds to advertise it, distribute it, and get it in people's hands.

 

NOTICE:

 

There is no disrespect intended here: I am not here to chop away at a prodigy, but I think concise and under-complicated, without an exhaustive list of optional-optional-options is key.  To that end, I -- very respectfully-- request that someone other than Steve write it.  If the funds can be found to let Steve write it, then I -- again, with utmost respect-- suggest no less than three editors in charge of paring everything down to the basics, leaving enough flavor to make it a pleasant read, of course.

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

16 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is no disrespect intended here: I am not here to chop away at a prodigy, but I think concise and under-complicated, without an exhaustive list of optional-optional-options is key. 

 

 

 

I agree, Duke.  Try to do one thing well.  Leave the toolkit and Hero-can-do-anything (which are both big selling points to me, but I get that's not a big draw for new players now - heck, *I* probably wouldn't pick up Hero if my first exposure was to 6E1 and 6E2, and Hero is my favorite RPG) for later.  Hey you - you want to play an Iron Man / Thor / Hulk / Hawkeye/Black Widow clone homage?  Here it is, in one book!  And if it sells, a whole universe of supplemental material.  Classic Battletech, right?  Basic explanation of the major powers in the first book, and everyone expects a book to detail each power (assuming they keep selling).

[Mark Rand]

I like it, too.  You could even use Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, my home town.

[SCUBA Hero]

That's a crucial decision.  Do you use an established setting (Millenium City) to point folks to existing product, or do you strike out on a new path?  I'm not sure which is the best option.  What brings in the most sales???

 

Keep skills light.  In 1E Champions there are only 14 Skills (some of which are now Powers).  Memory says that Steve Long in these forums once said, 'At the highest level, there are really only two skills: Know Stuff and Do Stuff.  Everything else is specialization.'

 

In a supers game, skill minutiae are not important.  I crib from V&V 3.0 - you have two Backgrounds which give you the needed skills.  Either two different ones (I would give 2 at 11-) or one specialized (I would give 14-).

[zslane]

I guess what I was getting at is that I don't view the superhero genre as a particularly fertile one for day-in-the-life serialized "adventure paths" like you see in a typical fantasy RPG like D&D. The easiest play model for busy Champions GMs is the one I am used to, which resembles tournament scenario play to a great degree. The background "world" is almost irrelevant in this model; what matters is the crisis at hand ("the situation") and coming up with a way to resolve it, usually with a battle against the villains in the last third of the game session. GMs don't need to put in a whole lot of work for this. The villains can be pulled from the Enemies volumes and the "plot", such as it is, can be cribbed from any of the gazillions of superhero plots from comic books of the past. This is Champions, where the most compelling, engaging element of the game is the combat system. It's a very detailed superhero "wargame", and constructing scenarios for this is not the same as plotting out fantasy "adventures" with long, complex storylines that border on fan fiction. Bear in mind that I carry this view only for the superhero genre.

 

Which is why I don't think that a "renaissance"--of any edition--should focus on the superhero genre since that is the one genre that, by its nature, needs the least product support beyond what already exists. It doesn't even need a highly developed setting, in my view. I would much rather see a unique setting be constructed, with lots of product support in all the traditional RPG areas for some other genre like sci-fi/space opera, or steam-/cyber-punk fantasy (ala Runeterra rather than, say, Shadowrun). And I feel that the best model for this is the Savage Worlds Plot Point structure because it provides a Big Picture plot, along with example adventure scenarios that plug into it, and lots of information describing how to fit one's own adventure scenarios into it. We should do more, not less, to nudge and encourage players to do more homebrew work.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Honestly I don't think a new book is needed.  We have Champions Complete, we have Champions Universe.  We have the upcoming folios of different fake nations created for the CU.  A new book would crowd an already puzzling bookshelf (what do I buy to play Champions?  The Hero rules 1 and 2?  Champions?  Champions Complete?  Teen Champions?  Dark Champions? et al)

 

What's needed are playable, off the shelf adventures and campaigns designed to let GMs just jump right in.

 

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During all my most active years of playing in various Champions campaigns, we never used any published superhero settings. The settings, such as they were, were always "home brew", at least in the sense that they were not the Champions Universe, they were not DC, and they were not Marvel. They were just "the real world", but with superheroes and supervillains added. Of course many (but not all) villains and organizations were taken from the Champions supplements in order to save time, but the CU timeline was never used, unique CU cities/locations were never used, and the backstories of the villains were pretty much just ignored.

 

I do as well and this is a place that I think the CU actually works well for.  Its kinda background.  Its not so unique and wild that you have to make major changes just to fit your campaign into it, or run adventures set in it.  Its not set in the year 2525, its not an alternate steampunk setting, its not a alt history world, its not set in the 1930's, its just now with some changes and some kind of generic but unique feeling bad guys and hero groups.  They're familiar without being rip offs, and interesting enough on their own.  You can run stuff Champions Universe, or ignore it, or take bits and use some and ignore the rest (like I did).

 

Quote

We should do more, not less, to nudge and encourage players to do more homebrew work.

 

Well I think it should be a middle ground.  Not a railroad that forces people along a given path or a total sandbox "here's your world, good luck!" which is what we have now.  It should be adventures, which someone can string together in a campaign if they want to making that available to people to run a series of related adventures.

 

See, the Champions approach would be different than the Fantasy approach because its simulating comic books rather than an 18-volume bookstop fantasy series.  It should feel like a year's run of a comic book, not a high fantasy trilogy.  You  need to keep things tight and fast paced, with the role playing about the superhero genre rather than fantasy.  And I can think of a lot of ways to make that work.  

 

Champions feels very different and cool compared to Fantasy which is usually pretty stodgy and takes its self terribly seriously.  You can have wisecracking heroes bantering with bad guys and doing silly crap, you can have Foxbat with his pie gun where that would break the genre in fantasy.

[dmjalund]

we might concentrate on the new normal that superheroes =/= comics. So instead of going four-color, we go cinematic.

[Duke Bushido]

 

Lots of good points (as usual), all of which are well-thought out.  No one is wrong, but none of us-- even together-- can solve the puzzle of "what will people want to buy when all this is done?", I'm afraid. 

 

1 hour ago, SCUBA Hero said:

That's a crucial decision.  Do you use an established setting (Millenium City) to point folks to existing product, or do you strike out on a new path?  I'm not sure which is the best option.  What brings in the most sales???

 

 

This _is_ a big decision, and Z has some good input, too:

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

 I don't think that a "renaissance"--of any edition--should focus on the superhero genre since that is the one genre that, by its nature, needs the least product support beyond what already exists. It doesn't even need a highly developed setting, in my view.

 

It's no secret that I completely agree with Z: superheroes need the absolute least amount of setting.  That's part of why I think it will be the easiest genre in which to implement the following suggestions.

 

At this point, HERO has several, especially if you consider the various editions (am I the only one who read the Miriquous (sp?) Falls stuff?  That was pretty good!)

 

In this case, I think we need to keep in mind what is currently selling: people want a background, if only a loose one, to add flavor and-- most importantly-- to provide something against which they can gauge their own builds, when they are ready.  However, there needs to be enough substance to keep them going if they decided-- for whatever reason-- that they are not going to do a roll-your-own anything.

 

We also know that pre-package adventures-- even entire campaigns, if the genre is right-- are more desirable than they ever were before.

 

We know that the ever-increasing complexity of HERO-- the thing I refer to as the love of the math over the actual playing-- is off-putting to a lot of players: it is the single most-common criticism of the system heard from non-HERO players.  It really only stings from V&V players, with the infinite charts....   

 

Combining these things-- and again: I am _not_ a sales analyst (I _am_ a commodities market analyst, but that's not in any way related to what we're trying to do here, except possibly for the part where we are both half anal.     )

 

Anyway, combining these things-- and the fact that we want to leave the door open to try the product line at large, I suggest using an existing setting.  I don't know how you would pick one, except to perhaps look and see what is the most popular in the comics and movies: the world of Tomorrow presented by Millennium City?  The depressingly-real hyper-dark Hudson City  (one vote against, right here!)  ?  I have always found Bay City from New Millennium to be the most well-rounded and exactly not-too-much for a setting book; the 5e version of that isn't too bad, either, but there is a bit of bloat.  Mark Rand's 4e setting-- San Angelo-- was pretty sweet, but I'd like to stick with a wholly-owned-by-HERO property, if possible.

 

At any rate, I would like to suggest a _stripped down_ version of an existing location.  Some background, but less.  Some of the current situations, but less.  Some of the background characters, but less.  Some of the plot hooks, but fewer currently-happening plots-- something like the 4e books were (except Hudson City   ).   As Z said-- and I agree-- superheroes need the least amount of setting.  That's part of what puzzles me so much about the size of the Champions genre book (yes: I understand the required fan service to cover all the editions and follow the characters, etc, etc, bust _still_!  ).

 

Get that "Setting" down to somewhere between 100 and 150 pages, period.  Then start a campaign book-- right in the same volume.  Narrow down on a specific few locations in the city, and a specific few characters who are going to be involved and a small handful more that are _likely_ to become involved, and that's it!  No more.  More than enough for your adventure, but we don't need a full write-up of the mayor or her chauffeur's girlfriend or whatever). 

 

 

1 hour ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

Keep skills light.  In 1E Champions there are only 14 Skills (some of which are now Powers).  Memory says that Steve Long in these forums once said, 'At the highest level, there are really only two skills: Know Stuff and Do Stuff.  Everything else is specialization.'

 

In a supers game, skill minutiae are not important.  I crib from V&V 3.0 - you have two Backgrounds which give you the needed skills.  Either two different ones (I would give 2 at 11-) or one specialized (I would give 14-).

 

Technically, there are only two abilities:

 

"Affect universe" and "Resist universe."  That was my go-to comment during the lead-up to 5e when everyone was presenting the case that certain powers should be folded together because they _could_ be folded together (no matter how awkward it was.   Instant Change as "Transformation?"  Yeah; it can be forced to work, ignoring the "can't transform yourself" rule, but is it at all better (since you now have to ignore a rule to make it work) or remotely necessary?  And I think we've already had out annual "just import Transfer forward from an older edition and call it good" thread.... ).  Reduce everything enough, and you end up with two abilities.  Reduce them partway, and you end up with the kludgiest possible version of Transfer ever.

 

If the goal is to attract new people, then I feel it is absolutely imperative that we do not "sixth edition" or even "fifth edition" those write-ups.  By _all means_ use existing characters: use villains from existing enemies books; use random NPCs from whatever random NPC books might be out there, but _simplify_ the build.  If your power has more than two modifiers, re-write it until it doesn't.  If you don't have at least one power without any sort of modifier, re-imagine the character.  This is entirely legal in 6e, but a newbie wouldn't know it by checking out the published material.

 

All Skills must be _broad_ Skills.  If your character is a Doctor in his secret ID, then he doesn't need skills in pathology, diagnostics, biology, microbiology, virology, pharmacology, business management, etc, etc-- he's a doctor; he knows "doctor stuff."    Don't get stupid with Perks.  Your doctor doesn't need "can write prescriptions" and "doesn't need to make reservations at a nice restaurant and "Authority figure."  He doesn't even _need_ "Medical License," but let it slip in because part of this project is teaching not just the use of the system, but that it can be a hell of a lot more simple than the last two rules sets would lead you to believe it is.

 

Ultimately, I'd shoot for a book of between 250-300 pages, 350 _tops_-- to give both an useable setting, some character write-ups, an over-arcing campaign plot,  and three or four smaller adventures within that arc-- enough for four to six sessions, perhaps?-- to create a book with both a setting and a useable mini-campaign.

 

Then follow that thing up!  Follow it up with electronic adventures, if necessary, or do something akin to the Journal of the Travellers Aid Society-- and yes, I point to that publication instead of our beloved Adventurers Club because it was more than just a "here are some interesting articles and thoughts about the game and a couple of adventures," but because everything in it was canon, period.  Rules addendums, errata, adventures-- entire supplements!-- were printed in that magazine, and they were all canon.  As Traveller expanded and grew and republished, all of that was folded into the core materials.  (Granted: that would eventually become as problematic for Traveller as it did for HERO, but the point is that there was constant inexpensive support for the players even between "big" releases). Perhaps build the mini-magazine around a new scenario or adventure within the arc of the campaign, and put some interesting filler in the rest of it.  It doesn't have to be much more than the adventure, really.  Perhaps the adventure, maybe a couple of simplified additional NPCs, a "villain of the month" drawn from one of the enemies books-- whatever. The adventure and ten pages of fluff; keep it all digital to keep expenses down; subscribe to have it e-mailed to you.

 

When the last adventure-- the one that concludes the campaign-- is published, gear up to publish a paper copy of the entire campaign for either collectors of those who didn't get on the list or whatever.  Heck, publish the book halfway through the run of the magazine-- whatever works.

 

The launch directly into the next campaign-- either with a published book (in lieu of publishing the entire first adventure) or perhaps an over-sized e-mag that lays out the basis of the new campaign and includes enough for two or three sessions of the new story arc.  Publish-- in paper-- a 36 or 48-page saddle stitched (for those who don't know, this is the correct name for "stapled in the middle;" it hearkens back to when such small publications were actually sewn together using-- you guessed it: a saddle stitch.  ) mini-campaign (like in the setting / adventure book) that can be extended via regular adventures published in the e-mag.  When that's all done, repeat again.  Realistically, given the state of the American worker right now, I would think a quarterly publication with enough "adventure" to fill eight hours or so of table time would be more than enough.  Most of my groups can really only get together for two or three hours every couple of months these days; I don't know about you guys, of course.  You may be far luckier than us blue-collar types.

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

 I would much rather see a unique setting be constructed, with lots of product support in all the traditional RPG areas for some other genre like sci-fi/space opera, or steam-/cyber-punk fantasy (ala Runeterra rather than, say, Shadowrun). And I feel that the best model for this is the Savage Worlds Plot Point structure because it provides a Big Picture plot, along with example adventure scenarios that plug into it, and lots of information describing how to fit one's own adventure scenarios into it. We should do more, not less, to nudge and encourage players to do more homebrew work.

 

Yes: that is kind of the thing I am talking about (though I don't know much about Savage Worlds beyond the rules of an edition or two back and the cover of a sci-fi supplement that I really liked the look of): an over-arcing story with adventures that advance the characters along that arc.

 

And yes!  I would _love_ to see a project just like this for a Sci-Fi setting / campaign book-- it's the genre I prefer anyway-- done this very same way: a stripped down setting with enough to give the "feel" of a setting without having to immediately learn all the minutiae (that can be doled out through the adventures, and probably should be, to enhance the world and give the sense of learning "the lore" of the setting).  I suggest Sci-Fi or cyberpunk or pretty much _anything_ over superheroes or even fantasy:

 

Fantasy today suffers from the same problem that superheroes have:  enough people have had enough exposure that they don't need a deeply detailed setting to have a game: just a taste of "what's allowed; what isn't," enough material to benchmark themselves, a bit of history they can hang their backstories on, a list of races, some magic spells, and done.  Fantasy has become so mainstream that I think you'd need more background to run something set in the cold war era at this point.  Sci-Fi and the others, though: those are still pretty wide open, given the relative lack of commonality between the various fictional settings.  Sure, every genre has its outliers (lookin' at you, Harry Potter), but there is a large enough body of knowledge in the typical gamer or game-curious that fantasy doesn't require what it once did.  Still, it would be nice to have a slimmed-down handbook of setting, races, spells, and just how magic works in this one world from which to build.

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

I guess what I was getting at is that I don't view the superhero genre as a particularly fertile one for day-in-the-life serialized "adventure paths" like you see in a typical fantasy RPG like D&D.

 

I will be the first to admit that superheroes is _not_ my favorite thing.  However, it is the _only_ genre that has survived as long as it has being presented, in its original form, in precisely that way: from one issue to the next to the next, waiting thirty days or so between, and typically cutting the adventure in half (or thirds or fourths).  An argument could be made along the lines of "but the legacy!  It started as superhero game--!"   However, I am not going to make that argument.  I am simply going to point out that HERO _is_ a superhero game, no matter what else can be done with it.  It models superheroes and incredible power far better than it models bar fights, and it's the most "granular" at a point well beyond the reach of mortal men.  

 

It is for several reasons-- to include that one-- that I would think the superhero genre would be an ideal place to start: 

D and D is still riding the Pathfinder high, making offering a competing fantasy product ill-advised, at least without a different product line that is catching attention and sales.

I have recently discovered that Traveller is having a bit of a resurgence as well, making a science fiction book without a different product line bringing in money risky as well.  Not as risky as targeting D and D, surely, but riskier than it has to be.   (And this is kind of a shame, because I kind of enjoyed the Terrain Empire book).

Superheroes doesn't need as much background, etc, making it a reasonable place to at least test the do-ability of this sort of product.

Pulp and its variants are dead.  They are going to die with us, the longest of tooth still in the RPG hobby.  Like post-apocalyptic fiction, fueled by living with a fear that the younger folks never experienced, pulp will die as a product of our parent's generation that we still have some fond childhood memories of.

Social Media has all but killed CyberPunk.  All one has to do is to browse Facebook or Twitter or Imgur or pretty much any "post semi-anonymously " website or any website that allows commentary without community to make the immediate (and wise) decision of "Dude!  I am _not_ putting that crap directly into my brain!  No way; no how!"  Well, that, and I don't think Elon's monkeys did anything to further positive sentiment on the ideas, either.  And now that we can see that cyborg implants will most likely be simply prosthesis with skin-contact sensors to trigger motion, -- well, the idea of the robo-jacked mecha-limbed street samurai seems almost silly today, in spite of how cool it was way back then.   Again-- not to you and me: we're old enough to remember when it was _cool_.  But today's audience is filtering what they see through a different set of experiences and observations.  If you presented them with a street samurai, the first thing the savvy twenty-something of today would do is either drill a hole in it, knowing that it's held to the stump with suction, or find a way to heat it up to the point that the wearer would remove it on his own.  He would also likely demand an explanation of just how something so heavy was staying in place anyway, given that even the modern plastic "bionic" limbs don't always stay put.  A steel one with guns built into it?  Forget it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

The easiest play model for busy Champions GMs is the one I am used to, which resembles tournament scenario play to a great degree. The background "world" is almost irrelevant in this model; what matters is the crisis at hand ("the situation") and coming up with a way to resolve it, usually with a battle against the villains in the last third of the game session. GMs don't need to put in a whole lot of work for this.

 

I agree with you.  Even today, I agree with you.  I feel like that about _every_ genre.  i will also say that it took a lot of time and some painful observations to see that I was wrong.  I didn't used to be wrong, but today's GMs-- DMs, whatever-- want exactly a prepackaged adventure with lore and colorful pictures and settings and probably maps; I don't know.  I used to love maps for battle areas and such, but I never got off on the "map of the city" or "the entire continent" or anything like that.  However, the new players _do_ get off on all that, and if there is any single marketing rule that I _do_ know, it's that it's really hard to sell a product that isn't something that your customer wants.

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

The villains can be pulled from the Enemies volumes

 

 

I believe that they _should_ be (see above), but I also believe they should be re-presented as somewhat more simplified than they are in the Enemies books.

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

and the "plot", such as it is, can be cribbed from any of the gazillions of superhero plots from comic books of the past.

 

Better than that: if the idea is to tie this hypothetical new material into the existing material, I suggest working villains' Disadplications and perhaps even their origins into the plots.  Nothing makes a player feel like he knows a villain more than having been on hand for his very creation.    

 

 

55 minutes ago, zslane said:

This is Champions, where the most compelling, engaging element of the game is the combat system. It's a very detailed superhero "wargame",

 

Right.  And that's another complaint heard against it:   you can see its wargame roots so clearly.

 

Now for me, that's not a problem, but in the words of a review someone posted a link to here a few days ago, Champions features a combat system that runs "like a very meticulous tax audit."  I know: every criticism of HERO's combat time dilation is met with "but it doesn't take that long!" or "not for me!" and so on, but facts is facts:  I can run through an entire meet, threaten, defend, return fire, defeat / retreat in Traveller in literally 1/6 of the time it takes to do that same situation in HERO.  part of it is the wargame roots, and part of it actually the part that allows HERO to do what other systems can't: simulate characters who are genuinely faster to react, faster to formulate actions and plans- than are other characters.  No other game I have ever played does this as well as Champions, and more than anything else-- more than points, or the fictional equality, or the 'get what you pay for,' the combat system is above all else the reason that I still stay.

 

But it _is_ slower than any other system I have ever played (excepting possibly Aftermath, and with the admission that I have never played Living Steel or Phoenix Command or anything else with that much-maligned system at the heart of it).  We've all got ways to speed it up, but ultimately there are just more steps than there are with any other game I can think of at the moment.  I won't pretend I have a perfect solution for this, either, but ideally a way must be found to either accelerate combat or to really sell the positive side of the combat system.  Currently, it's the one part of the system that really does make the game feel old.

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly I don't think a new book is needed.  We have Champions Complete, we have Champions Universe.  We have the upcoming folios of different fake nations created for the CU.  A new book would crowd an already puzzling bookshelf (what do I buy to play Champions?  The Hero rules 1 and 2?  Champions?  Champions Complete?  Teen Champions?  Dark Champions? et al)

 

I totally get what you're saying, but let's look at your list:

 

Champions Complete, Champions Universe, a folio of fake nations, The HERO rules 1, the HERO rules 2, Champions, Teen Champions, Dark Champions.

 

 

Which books on that list are actual complete and playable games?

 

Now personally, I think Champions Complete is-- and I have been proven to be in the minority there, but that is because it is as complete as was the very first Champions: no settings, no adventures, no nothing but rules.  It's all I need, but as has been pointed out, today's gamers seem to prefer having at least a framework of a setting and some sort of solid, ready-to-go adventure right off the bat.

 

Now you could by your entire list-- CC, CU, Folio, HSR1, HSR2, Champions, Teen Champions, and Dark Champions and still absolutely not have that.

 

If I wasn't collecting-- if I was buying because I really wanted to take a shot at playing this game-- I would be beyond livid to have shelled out the money that collection represents and discover that I still hadn't actually bought a game!  While this is all armchair quarterbacking, the goal is to create an actual single book with a game that is complete and ready by the standards of the modern gamer.

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

we might concentrate on the new normal that superheroes =/= comics. So instead of going four-color, we go cinematic.

 

I understand this approach but I have a few thoughts on that.  First off, Marvel Comics is putting out a role playing game. I don't know if it will be any good or not but the fact is, they'll dominate the "play the movies" market completely.  In fact, its likely that every superhero game is leaning in that direction, which means Champions would just be marching in the same rut without star power or movie tie-ins to back it up.  Further I suspect that people still have some affection for and appreciation for a more bronze age/4 color approach than barely-costumed adventurers blowing up cities.  But perhaps that's just my bias.

 

Quote

If I wasn't collecting-- if I was buying because I really wanted to take a shot at playing this game-- I would be beyond livid to have shelled out the money that collection represents and discover that I still hadn't actually bought a game!

 

By every possible standard, D&D is the most popular, most well-known, and most influential game on the market.  They have never, in nearly 50 years, published a game that had a scenario built into the rules.  In fact, if you look at nearly every RPG that's put out, they have the rules in books that are conspicuously lacking a setting and adventures in it.

 

What they do have is a bundle of rules + adventure, in box sets or similar presentations.  And I do think that's a good approach, which is a winner.  A new book purporting to be Champions in a shelf already crammed with Champions?  Not so much.  Champions Complete plus Champions Begins for free, plus a ready made campaign including an adventure or two and a buncha summaries in a box with a subscription to Hero Designer?  Yeah.  That should work.

 

We have what we need in place: Champions Complete gives you the game, Champions Universe gives you the setting.

 

As for a specific city?  I think perhaps the best approach for that is not to put out a setting of a city, but to put out adventures that build this setting.  In other words, your adventures build the setting by the PCs interacting with it. This adventure is set in the docks.  This one is downtown.  This one is the cemetery and some parks.  That way as noted above, GMs have a choice to use the specific setting given, or just use a generic version or one of their own.  By thinly disguising locations you can mimic interesting sorts of settings which GMs can then use as Champions Universe if they want, or real world.  OK this isn't the Statue of Liberty, its the Triumph Monument, but you can tell what it is, either way.