DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Lord Liaden]

Ahem! Six years ago, not sixteen.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Ahem! Six years ago, not sixteen.

 

I thought that made me feel older than I was (no mean feat!).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sorry yeah  Six years.  They need something fundamental, fairly inexpensive, and very entertaining.  Not another 200+ million dollar flop written by people who don't understand the fans or characters.

 

DC figured out the formula decades ago, but keeps forgetting until they stumble on it again then forget it again.  Marvel did the same thing.

 

1) Quality, talented, experienced director who loves the property and characters

2) Quality, talented, experienced writers who love the property and characters

3) Top end talent to portray the characters, even if they are lesser known

4) Show respect for the property and present it as it is, without needing to insert any particular ideology or narrative.

 

Superman The Motion Picture, 89 Batman, Iron Man, Dark Knight, on and on you can list the films that worked and are legendary, that follow this simple, obvious formula.  But it quickly gets forgotten or cast aside for crap and messaging.

[Starlord]

I've never really considered 89 Batman to be a great movie...just ok IMO.

[Bazza]

I've never really considered Dark Knight to be a great movie...just ok IMO.

 

(  )

[Starlord]

Dark Knight is not great, its fantastic.

[Lord Liaden]

Tim Burton's Batman included much camp and spectacle, in an era when that was widely held to be only way most movie audiences would accept superheroes.  Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight was grim, gritty and psychological, which is what Batman comics had become. Both films executed what they were going for exceptionally well.

 

(Full disclosure: while I admire what both films accomplished, I don't like either of them.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

People have personal opinions about what they like and don't like, and that's fine.  I find a lot of Superman to be cringy and regrettable, if fun.  But objectively these films were tremendously successful and lucrative, because film makers followed the formula I laid out.  When they abandon that (which they have), you get... well what we have today.  To make matters even worse, MCU is plagued with film by committee where too many cooks are working on the pot and they cannot create a coherent, entertaining, and engaging stew.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Christopher R Taylor]

Doesn't look good for Aquaman 2.  Thirsty women made Aquaman 1 a billion dollar movie but even with the Christmas Day surge it doesn't look like this one is going to even break even.

[Grailknight]

Watched Blue Beetle on Max last night and came away disappointed.

 

The characters are great at first. Jaime and his family come across as real in their introduction, with even the one crazy uncle being tolerable. The love interest is well done. Even the villains are relatable, though Susan Sarandon's portrayal is too stereotypically corporate evil.

 

But then you're jarred out of the vibe by the inconsistency in the levels of violence, the total absence of any police even as crowd control and comical ability of Jaime's family to stage a commando rescue raid. The plot hinges on too many contrived problems and the entire conflict could have been resolved with a few calls to the police and media by our love interest/heroine.

 

It was better than Shazam!-Fury of the Gods, but it couldn't decide if it wanted to fit that younger viewer plot style or be a more adult superhero film. I'd watch another film about these characters if I could be assured that the plot was tighter than something written by a newbie GM.

 

Overall, 4 out of 10, good characters and SFX poorly written.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Grailknight

[Christopher R Taylor]

DC has a real problem of great characters poorly executed.  Although I don't know as I would consider Blue Beetle to be in that mix, at least not this one.  I don't know the character well enough to decide.  My Blue Beetle is Ted Kord.

[Lord Liaden]

I had some significant issues with the Black Adam movie, but I loved the Justice Society. Vivid characters, great chemistry between them, impressive powers and action scenes. IMHO a movie based around them would have been much more interesting and entertaining than what we got.

[slikmar]

The problem with Black Adam, and I actually was fine with the movie and enjoyed the JS as you did, is that Adam isn't a hero. He is Doom, effectively, in the DC universe, which this movie was sort of setting up. He is a master villain who is a leader of a country, and therefore has a certain amount of immunity.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I liked it okay but Black Adam is a tough sell because he's the bad guy.  I mean, he was just generic bad guy for like 60 years until someone decided to turn him into Dr Doom as slikmar says (kind of like how they made Aquaman more interesting by swiping Namor's story) but even with the "protect your people" storyline, its still difficult to do a movie around him.  He's not especially heroic, even with the movie attempting to do so.  The Justice Society had a point: they were right to try to stop him.

[Lord Liaden]

I could have rolled with Black Adam as anti-hero, but Dwayne Johnson was just so dull and boring in the role. He was always cold and expressionless, even in scenes when the plot and dialogue said he should have shown more feeling, such that I couldn't connect with him as any sort of protagonist. I don't know if that was the director's decision or Johnson's -- he probably had the clout to play Adam however he wanted -- but I've seen him be far more emotional and charismatic than that, so it must have been a deliberate choice.

[slikmar]

As far as making money goes, I think that we can't underestimate the "It's going to be on my streaming in 6 weeks" crowd. I know quite a few people who have this attitude.

[Rich McGee]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean, he was just generic bad guy for like 60 years until someone decided to turn him into Dr Doom as slikmar says (kind of like how they made Aquaman more interesting by swiping Namor's story) but even with the "protect your people" storyline, its still difficult to do a movie around him.

If they'd stopped at the one major reboot that changed him from what he'd been since 1945 (ie a failed prototype who let his hubris lead him to abuse his powers, acting as a dark mirror of Captain Marvel) I could see the point.  But they didn't.  Once they started seriously tampering with him they never stopped, and at this point he's been through so many creative teams and ill-considered revamps that he no longer has a reason to exist and his stories are so incoherent and meandering they aren't worth reading.  He's been an antihero, then a villain, then supposedly seeking redemption without any of it lasting so many times now it's laughable.  Too many cooks have pissed in the Black Adam stew to salvage the character, at least not without a long cooldown time and probably yet another reboot that sticks this time.

 

Seriously, just look at this mess, and keep in mind that is just an abbreviated synopsis on wiki.

[slikmar]

2 hours ago, Rich McGee said:

If they'd stopped at the one major reboot that changed him from what he'd been since 1945 (ie a failed prototype who let his hubris lead him to abuse his powers, acting as a dark mirror of Captain Marvel) I could see the point.  But they didn't.  Once they started seriously tampering with him they never stopped, and at this point he's been through so many creative teams and ill-considered revamps that he no longer has a reason to exist and his stories are so incoherent and meandering they aren't worth reading.  He's been an antihero, then a villain, then supposedly seeking redemption without any of it lasting so many times now it's laughable.  Too many cooks have pissed in the Black Adam stew to salvage the character, at least not without a long cooldown time and probably yet another reboot that sticks this time.

 

Seriously, just look at this mess, and keep in mind that is just an abbreviated synopsis on wiki.

I refer too my comment on the biggest problems with DC's "reboots". Not just trying to restart but trying to keep the history of each character too. Seriously, if they would either do the legacy thing OR clean slate reboot, would be so much better.

Just saw Aquaman, I liked it and thought as good as first. Loved the homage to Mos Eisley and Jabba. Not a fan of the casting of Shin, or at least the portrayal.

[Rich McGee]

18 minutes ago, slikmar said:

I refer too my comment on the biggest problems with DC's "reboots". Not just trying to restart but trying to keep the history of each character too. Seriously, if they would either do the legacy thing OR clean slate reboot, would be so much better.

Heresy!  Next you'll suggest DC can't have its cake and eat it too.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Too many cooks have pissed in the Black Adam stew to salvage the character, at least not without a long cooldown time and probably yet another reboot that sticks this time.

 

I think that's pretty true about almost all of DC (and much of Marvel too at this point).   Consider just Wonder Woman who keeps being rebooted and remade and reimagined etc.  In my mind Perez did the best with her in the 80s but it wasn't that long after he left the title they rebooted her again.  Its the curse of fans wanting continuity while wanting things to be fresh and liking big events.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, slikmar said:

I refer too my comment on the biggest problems with DC's "reboots". Not just trying to restart but trying to keep the history of each character too. Seriously, if they would either do the legacy thing OR clean slate reboot, would be so much better.

Just saw Aquaman, I liked it and thought as good as first. Loved the homage to Mos Eisley and Jabba. Not a fan of the casting of Shin, or at least the portrayal.

 

I enjpyed it, although in hindsight,

Spoiler

perhaps Orm's guards could have had a theme other than undeath.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Grailknight]

Just saw Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom and can't understand the negative press. Was it Oscar quality acting and writing? No. Did it have good action, a cohesive plot and characters with understandable motivations? Yes, to all three.

 

The worst thing I can say about this movie is that it redoes the plotline of the first with Orm in Mera's role and sibling rivalry instead of romantic tension. But it does so many good things to counteract that. It only teases a long fight scene against run of the mill thugs, The things they do fight are credible threats either in numbers or power, the humor is kept in check and doesn't seem forced, and the evil masterplan is over the top only in its timescale.

 

Best of all, the characters remain consistent in personality and in powers. Black Manta is given a powerup through Faustian bargain, but remains true to his vendetta against Arthur without slipping into melodramatic villainy. Orm has plenty of reasons to hate Arthur from his perspective but does still act for Atlantis" benefit as he sees it and comes to realize that he doesn't really know Arthur. Arthur realizes that he's a flawed king, but he keeps on plugging away as best he can. The rest of the cast is used fairly well and not overly distracting in any way.

 

Is it the best superhero movie out there? No, but it's a very solid entry in the genre an if DC had more like it, they wouldn't be in such a state. It's easily as good as any GotG movie and very similar with a more serious tone. Solid 7.5 out of 10 from me.

[Lord Liaden]

The Critical Drinker called the film a decent mid-range superhero movie, that probably would have done well if it had come out ten years ago. Now the audience has been both spoiled by past exceptional entries in the genre, and disappointed by the general decline in their quality. The audience will no longer be drawn to an okay movie just because it's superheroes.

[Rich McGee]

Let's be honest, it's also partly an Aquaman problem.  The character isn't openly mocked to the degree he once was, but he's still not Superman, Batman or (if one can forgive the disastrous sequel) Wonder Woman.  The beefcake (and perfectly competent acting, to be fair) only fills so many seats, and audiences are no longer greatly impressed by CGI FX fest finales.  Sequels usually do worse, not better.  Hollywood seems to keep forgetting that.

 

And I like Aquaman, mostly out of childhood nostalgia.  Someone who only knows him from the films probably had enough with his first flick, and will just wait for streaming.

[slikmar]

Sadly, the credits scene just continues a disgusting joke from earlier in the movie, and I don't recommend sitting around for it.