Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Nolgroth]

Sadly I was at work an unable to watch the testimony live. All I have are talking heads from either side of the aisle giving their own spin on the proceedings. I'm about to go look for a transcript and hope to hell it hasn't been creatively quoted to further an ideological agenda.

[Pariah]

Sadly I was at work an unable to watch the testimony live. All I have are talking heads from either side of the aisle giving their own spin on the proceedings. I'm about to go look for a transcript and hope to hell it hasn't been creatively quoted to further an ideological agenda.

You're an optimist, I see. Interesting. I didn't know there were any of those left.

[Old Man]

I got to see some of it before leaving for work.  There's not much to spin, really; Comey knew what he wanted to say and did so, very clearly.  The only spin I'm seeing from the Trump side is that Trump is a clueless idiot, which... is not much of a defense.  Definitely check out the McCain questions at the end.

[Pariah]

I didn't see the interrogation, but I've read some analysis. And I can't help but ask this question:

 

Is McCain suffering from dementia or something?

[Sociotard]

The spin I got was that Comey was a coward who should have immediately explained his moral qualms about the request for loyalty, and that Trump should get a pass because he is a political rookie and didn't understand that this would be a red flag.

 

To be fair, 'being a rookie' was one of the complaints Republicans had about Obama. Of course, Obama did have a better political resume than Trump, and Trumps business resume won't help in matters like this.

[Old Man]

Deliberately shut down the investigation that would have exonerated his campaign if they were innocent?  "Rookie" is not one of the words that springs to mind.

[Sociotard]

I don't think it would have exonerated him one way or another. Look at Hillary and all the Benghazi hearings and investigations.  They never turned up anything that could be indictable, but the only reason they aren't ongoing is that Hillary is not in the game anymore.  Trump knows that just because someone is innocent doesn't mean they can't be prosecuted forever.

 

But yes, they are calling it a rookie mistake:

 

 

House Speaker Paul Ryan acknowledged that there should be independence between the FBI and the president of the United States, but as for President Donald Trump’s misconduct, “he’s just new at this,” Ryan said.

 

 

When MSNBC host Nicolle Wallace asked about this allegation, Christie blamed Trump’s inexperience with government agencies, and said Trump considers that sort of thing “normal New York City conversation.”

 

My favorite response tweet: Yah, last time I was in NYC I got a falafel and the guy leaned over the counter and said "I need loyalty," totally normal

 

I only have one request: have Donald Trump state under oath that he has learned from this, and that he will not repeat this rookie mistake, and that at no point in nominating Christopher Wray did he strongly imply that he wanted the man's loyalty.

[csyphrett]

The republicans have voted to get roll back Frank Dodd, place the CFB in the president's hands, and take its budget.

CES 

[Pariah]

CFB?

 

(Not college football, I presume--although it does haven impressive budget.)

[csyphrett]

CFB?

 

(Not college football, I presume--although it does haven impressive budget.)

I'm sorry. The consumer financial protection bureau. It's the agency that tracks financial malfeasance. They're the guys that caught Wells Fargo setting up all those fake accounts. Ever since, Repubs have tried to gut it. This vote for this new bill passed with all the repubs but one voting for it. it's on the senate to approve before it goes to Trump

CES

[Nolgroth]

I'm sorry. The consumer financial protection bureau. It's the agency that tracks financial malfeasance. They're the guys that caught Wells Fargo setting up all those fake accounts. Ever since, Repubs have tried to gut it. This vote for this new bill passed with all the repubs but one voting for it. it's on the senate to approve before it goes to Trump

CES

 

Yeah, but I doubt the Senate Republicans are going to be able to gin up the necessary Democrat votes to pass it. As I understand it, there seems to be an actual dialog (gasp!) between the Republicans and Democrats on creating a workable alternative to Dodd-Frank. The House bill was lacking too much foresight to ever make me comfortable. I personally like my bank not opening accounts in my name. Thank you very much.

 

I understand the concerns about international competition, but there has to be a better way than just scrapping Dodd-Frank and acting like 2008 and the Wells Fargo thing never happened.

[DShomshak]

Incidentally, the other day columnist Kathleen Parker -- usually considered conservative, though she mocks the far right as "Oogedy Boogedy" conservatives, called openly for House Republicans to bite the bullet and declare Trump incompetent for fulfilling the duties of his office. The Constitution spells out this method for removing a sitting president; though the VP and Cabinet must go along.

 

It won't happen, and I don't like Pence either, but we can dream.

 

Also, the Trumpist campaign to troll liberals continues with the "March Against Sharia" tomorrow. All Things Considered played the announcement by the organizing group, all about how Western civilization and Judeo-Christian values are in imminent threat of destruction, all delivered in a tone of hysterical rage and fear. It would be funny if the paranoia was not so widely shared.

 

Dean Shomshak

[megaplayboy]

Mildly NSFW(a few dirty words)

 

[Joe Walsh]

Incidentally, the other day columnist Kathleen Parker -- usually considered conservative, though she mocks the far right as "Oogedy Boogedy" conservatives, called openly for House Republicans to bite the bullet and declare Trump incompetent for fulfilling the duties of his office. The Constitution spells out this method for removing a sitting president; though the VP and Cabinet must go along.

 

Yeah, there are a few principled conservatives left in the Republican Party, but they have very little power. I remember growing up in California, the John Birch Society ("Birchers") -- Orange County's conservative heart -- was the bugaboo of the Republican Party nationally. Now, that sort of irresponsible conservatism has completely taken over the party. I left the Republican Party in the 90s, when it first started heading in that direction. Now, I don't even recognize my Grand Old Party.

 

And despite claims to the contrary, it's not equivalent on the Democratic side, as far as I can see. More or less, the Democratic Party moved right in the 80s and especially the 90s, and hasn't moved back. Good Lord, the huge bugaboo of Obamacare is actually the plan put together in the early 90s by the Heritage Foundation! For the most part, the Democratic Party is the party of minor change in a mildly progressive direction...as long as it doesn't disrupt business too much.

 

Not to say there aren't truly scary-left folks on that side, some of them with a modicum of real power. An example is the college free speech protests on the west coast, and more generally how speech is handled in colleges these days. That stuff is scary to me in the same way that the right-wing loonies are. These left-wing nuts will brook no debate, will listen to no reason, and want to shut down the opposition at any cost. Fortunately, they don't have real power outside of university campuses and some of the more left-leaning towns on the West Coast.  Unlike today's Loony Right, which is just a hair's breadth away from total power.

 

Heck, the Loony Right's not far from having total control of enough states to rewrite the Constitution any way they please...

[Nolgroth]

We are getting into ideology a bit, but I have to disagree (or at least comment) on a few points. First, I agree with you that the Republican party is not the same as it used to be but then neither is the Democrat party. You see the Democrats as having moved Right, I see both parties as moving further into the direction that they are both known for (R-Right, D-Left). There always was a rift between policy makers from opposite sides of the aisle, but now that rift has become a seemingly unsurpassable gulf. It really isn't, but both sides have convinced themselves that the other is the "enemy." So the war of words, governed by poisoned ideology, continues on. Where both sides should be meeting to figure out what is truly best for the nation and its people and business, both sides believe that they alone have the magic formula for success. It is that institutional arrogance that is bringing us to the brink of disaster.

 

As to the power of the education loonies, that is power. They have the power to shape hearts and minds. Instead of using that power responsibly to teach, they have fostered a culture of hatred that is worse than just about anything I have ever seen before outside of totalitarian regimes. That hatred and contempt for opposing ideas and ideals will not magically disappear when those students graduate and move on. It is irresponsible to the point where I personally consider it a broken system. I totally admit that I, personally, have thought our education system broken from K-Graduate School for a very long time. In this day and age of growing tuition costs, book fees, and a self-protectionism among education staff, coupled with the fact that a college degree promises nothing and leaves the student to bear crushing debt for a mere "roll of the dice" chance at success, I am a proponent for gutting everything and starting over. I know that's not a popular opinion, but something, somewhere needs to be changed.

 

Too much hatred governs our nation and its competing ideologies. Somewhere, someway, we need to find common ground. It doesn't have to be sunshine and rainbows but it does have to be something more than the sepia toned crapfest that we find ourselves in now.

[Joe Walsh]

Too much hatred governs our nation and its competing ideologies. Somewhere, someway, we need to find common ground. It doesn't have to be sunshine and rainbows but it does have to be something more than the sepia toned crapfest that we find ourselves in now.

 

On that, we agree. We need an end to the "if the other side gets even one iota of what they want, then it's a total loss for me" sort of thinking.

 

Unfortunately, there are a lot of incentives to keep it the way it is, and indeed to make it moreso.

[Michael Hopcroft]

The Republican claim that Donald Trump is neither experienced nor smart enough to obstruct justice has two problems.

 

The obvious one is that if he's not experienced enough for that, why did you ever think he was experienced enough to be President?

 

The other argument is that in his business dealings Trump has all kinds of experience with deflecting investigation into his conduct and business dealings. We are, after all, talking about a man the banks won't touch, who has become indebted to the Russian Mob because international organized crime are the only people who will invest with him anymore.

 

He was a criminal all along. Only now he's a criminal with the nuclear football.

[Doc Shadow]

For the late Adam West.

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

Former Fox News host Megyn Kelly (sp?) has provoked controversy at her new gig at NBC by taping an interview with Alex Jones, the owner of the conspiracy-theory website Infowars. Given that he has claimed that the September 11 attacks were an "inside job" and that the Sandy Hook school shooting never happened, giving him this sort of credibility is a surprise from NBC. Kelly claims that she did it because people need to know who he is.

 

I know enough about who he is to wish I were ignorant of it.

[Lord Liaden]

It's a really interesting conundrum in today's media. If you ignore someone as unworthy of serious attention, are you allowing them the freedom to spread their message to susceptible people unchallenged? But if you publicize them to challenge them, are you giving them a pulpit to spread their message to even more susceptible people who don't care about your counter-arguments?

 

There may not be a truly winning position here, except for the messenger.

[Nolgroth]

I'm pretty much convinced that nutjobs should not get free publicity.

[Lord Liaden]

But nowadays they don't have to wait for someone to give them free publicity. Any nutjob can disseminate their nuttiness on their own through various channels. Such people used to shun the light, now they shine it on themselves. Given that, is the best strategy to combat them, to ignore or to publicly oppose?

[Nolgroth]

It's one thing to have a "fan" base in the couple of 100k range. Quite another to get the message out to (tens of) millions of viewers. Just my opinion and not, in any way, supported by data or facts. 

[Pattern Ghost]

Nobody seemed too put out when she had Putin on, who is arguably the bigger monster of the two.

 

I think it's kind of like the guy I saw at Festival Sundiata this past weekend. The moron was walking around with a homemade sign that said "God is imaginary!" OK. Great. Anyone that agrees with him won't be moved. Anybody who doesn't, isn't going to be. Utterly pointless exercise. (Well, he was getting some exercise walking around, so I guess that was god for him.)

 

Alex Jones isn't going to recruit millions more morons to his cause. They're already out there. That's how we got Trump. Even most of the really far right aren't whacko enough to buy into his conspiracy nonsense, and those that are inclined to buy in have already sought him out. He's a semi-frequent guest on Coast to Coast as it is. Colbert has an entire segment devoted to mocking him. Megyn Kelly isn't really going to add to his notoriety at this point.

[Nolgroth]

I don't watch any of the major news networks so they could be interviewing Ivan the Terrible for all I know. It's amazing to me. Putin orchestrates the invasion and effective conquest of a region within a sovereign nation and we are still treating with him as "just another politician." I suppose we should now annex British Columbia or Baja California. I mean, if its good for the Russians...

 

I'll never understand the world political stage. One of the reasons I should keep myself out of this thread. I just happen to pick up some news bits from time to time.