Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Ranxerox]

Wrong southern slave holder*.  It is a statue of Robert E Lee that they are guarding.

 

 

 

*- I say slave holder not slave owner, because I can't find any evidence that Lee ever actually owned slaves.  He did, however, have temporary charge over his grandfather's slaves following his grandfathers and for a time acted as their master.

[megaplayboy]

Wrong southern slave holder*.  It is a statue of Robert E Lee that they are guarding.

 

 

 

*- I say slave holder not slave owner, because I can't find any evidence that Lee ever actually owned slaves.  He did, however, have temporary charge over his grandfather's slaves following his grandfathers and for a time acted as their master.

Yes, but they marched to the statue of Jefferson last night.

[Ranxerox]

Why?  No one is talking about removing that one.

[Old Man]

I hear the violence started already. Better get in there, mega, before you miss all the fun.

[Twilight]

IMO, we should encourage China to install a better-behaved puppet government.

I actually believe that's what China will do.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Do not joke about Charlottesville, please. Apparently a car plowed into a group of demonstrators, injuring many. The details are unclear and I can't tell from the news accounts whether it's the alt-right people or the "antifa" counter-protesters who were hit. Even the President says things have gone too far -- which is really saying something considering how he got into office.

 

This is enough to make even me want to take to the streets in protest against the alt-right, personal safety be damned.

 

And this is not going to stop. It may even escalate. I still remember last year when someone actually shot at Black Lives Matter protesters in MInnesota. There are some really unhinged people out there, who are finding politics to be a ready excuse. And this is happening in a liberal college town. I can think of several places in the US where this would be much worse.

[Doc Shadow]

Last I heard there were 35 injured and 3 dead. A hideous tragedy for America. This is what intolerance and hatred leads to.

[DShomshak]

An example of how hard it's become to tell which side is which: You know James (I think that was his name) Damore, the fired Google engineer? He believes women are genetically predisposed to be good with people, while men are more predisposed to be good with things and technology.

 

I was surprised to learn he considers himself conservative, though, because I first encountered that claim about gender differences in a radical feminist rant. Men are jealous and frustrated they can't have babies, so they sublimate by making things using tools. So I guess Mr. Damore could also claim he was fired for being a radical feminist.

 

(To be fair, I don't know enough radical feminism to say if the author was mainstream-radical -- if that makes sense -- or if this was just her notion. And to be fair to Mr. Damore, I read that in subsequent interviews he insists that he isn't saying anything about the competence of woman engineers at Google, he thinks thay are every bit as competent as the men, and indeed he thinks they make better collaborators. So, um, whatever. I think it's best I just be bemused.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pariah]

I can't even wrap my head around what's going on in Charlottesville.

 

We freak out when ISIS does these things overseas, and then we turn around we do them to each other here in America.

 

There just aren't words for how sad that is.

[Badger]

I am always torn with the Confederate stuff since I did have ancestors that fought for the South (non-slave owners, we were of the poor farmer ilk).  While I understand why their is hatred for that flag, and I have no interest in the damn thing when it is all said and done.  It is hard also, not to see it as being told, "ancestry is something we should all be proud of......except YOU!" 

 

So while I am sympathetic, I also end up feeling attacked.  As a result, I've never really been able to completely sort out my feelings, it's very complicated for me.

[megaplayboy]

I strongly recommend the accelerated removal of all confederate statuary from public grounds, the renaming of buildings and roads named for confederates, and the redesign of all state flags containing elements of the confederate flag(s).  Period, full stop.  

[Burrito Boy]

I can't even wrap my head around what's going on in Charlottesville.

 

We freak out when ISIS does these things overseas, and then we turn around we do them to each other here in America.

 

There just aren't words for how sad that is.

The fact that we do these things to each other is a good point. Both sides have their problems. When I read comments on Facebook (Yeah, I know I should never read the comments.), it isn't just liberals talking trash about conservatives or just conservatives talking trash about liberals. People on both sides throw around insults like "snowflake" and several people think that the childish misspelling of Trump and Obama's names is clever. And neither side is innocent of violence. We all know the history of the KKK. Their legacy is a brutal one of lynching and murder. Then, as Michael Hopcroft mentioned, you have people shooting at Black Lives Matter protesters. On the other hand, you have Black Lives Matter protesters chanting that they want dead cops and the ambush and murder of five police officers during a BLM protest in Dallas. And you have Antifa calling for violence against Trump suporters. As DShomshak said, it's become hard to tell which side is which.

[megaplayboy]

Can we agree that Nazis and white supremacists are their own special category and don't really belong in any "both sides do it" framing?

[Lord Liaden]

I am always torn with the Confederate stuff since I did have ancestors that fought for the South (non-slave owners, we were of the poor farmer ilk).  While I understand why their is hatred for that flag, and I have no interest in the damn thing when it is all said and done.  It is hard also, not to see it as being told, "ancestry is something we should all be proud of......except YOU!" 

 

So while I am sympathetic, I also end up feeling attacked.  As a result, I've never really been able to completely sort out my feelings, it's very complicated for me.

 

I remember during the Vietnam War and its immediate aftermath, returning veterans were often reviled by many Americans as though they were all complicit in atrocities, which was deeply hurtful and confusing to those who thought they were just serving their country. I have seen a very different attitude toward American veterans of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan; even most of the people who oppose those wars have made a point of expressing respect, compassion and support for the men and women who have fought in them.

 

I would say to you that you should feel and proclaim your pride in your ancestors' courage, their patriotism, their sacrifice for their homeland... while at the same time accepting and acknowledging that their cause turned out to be on the wrong side of history. Every country, every ethnicity, has shame mingled with their pride if you dig back far enough. And you don't often have to dig very far.

[Burrito Boy]

I can agree that actual Nazis were their own special category. The Holocaust qualifies them for that. I will not put white supremacists in a special category when there are also black supremacist groups. They may not have the same history that the KKK has but the ideology is similar. Racism is not exclusive to whites.

[Lord Liaden]

Even the Nazis are not as unique as many people assume. Their industrial approach to genocide was certainly unprecedented; but if you look at the even greater numbers of their own people the Stalinist regime in the Soviet Union murdered at roughly the same time, and the methods they used, there's a lot that's comparable.

 

The Twentieth Century set a new high (or low) for the efficient application of mass barbarism.

[assault]

I remember during the Vietnam War and its immediate aftermath, returning veterans were often reviled by many Americans as though they were all complicit in atrocities, which was deeply confusing to those who thought they were just serving their country.

 

It would be interesting to see how much of that was real, and how much was Reagan-era propaganda.

 

I'm not saying it never happened, but there was a lot of myth-making going on. A lot of the same myths also appeared in Australia, virtually unchanged.

[assault]

Even the Nazis are not as unique as many people assume. Their industrial approach to genocide was certainly unprecedented; but if you look at the even greater numbers of their own people the Stalinist regime in the Soviet Union murdered at roughly the same time, and the methods they used, there's a lot that's comparable.

 

The Twentieth Century set a new high (or low) for the efficient application of mass barbarism.

 

The Belgian Congo was pretty impressive too.

 

Of course there were a whole lot of less industrial, but still effective, genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries, at times involving entire continents.

 

What is probably more common is mass death through famine and disease, related to various proportions of incompetence, neglect and malice. A good example is the Bengal Famine in 1943-44, where it is currently estimated that over 2 million Indians died under the British administration.

[megaplayboy]

I can agree that actual Nazis were their own special category. The Holocaust qualifies them for that. I will not put white supremacists in a special category when there are also black supremacist groups. They may not have the same history that the KKK has but the ideology is similar. Racism is not exclusive to whites.

Fair, but Black Lives Matter is not a black supremacist group by any stretch of the imagination.

[Burrito Boy]

Fair, but Black Lives Matter is not a black supremacist group by any stretch of the imagination.

I never said that they are. I simply stated that black supremacist groups exist.

[Burrito Boy]

Even the Nazis are not as unique as many people assume. Their industrial approach to genocide was certainly unprecedented; but if you look at the even greater numbers of their own people the Stalinist regime in the Soviet Union murdered at roughly the same time, and the methods they used, there's a lot that's comparable.

 

The Twentieth Century set a new high (or low) for the efficient application of mass barbarism.

I thought about that after I posted. Not only about Stalin but also Pol Pot.

[Badger]

Fair, but Black Lives Matter is not a black supremacist group by any stretch of the imagination.

 

True, but is it possible some of their marches are infiltrated to some degree by said groups?

[megaplayboy]

I never said that they are. I simply stated that black supremacist groups exist.

Sure, but to put things in perspective, they're much smaller and less overtly violent and eliminationist than their melanin-deficient counterparts.

[Burrito Boy]

Sure, but to put things in perspective, they're much smaller and less overtly violent and eliminationist than their melanin-deficient counterparts.

They may not have the same history that the KKK has...

[Lord Liaden]

It would be interesting to see how much of that was real, and how much was Reagan-era propaganda.

 

I'm not saying it never happened, but there was a lot of myth-making going on. A lot of the same myths also appeared in Australia, virtually unchanged.

 

I'm not denying the myth-making. However, while I'm not American, in Canada we had a ring-side seat to what was happening in the United States at that time. I assure you, a lot of it was very real.