Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Lord Liaden]

From my reading, it's credible enough to be examined seriously, but still very disputable. The plaintiff has no witnesses, but there are people who assert she told them about the incident. She claims to have filed official complaints, but no records of them have been found. Other women have since come forward with stories of inappropriate conduct by Biden, but none of assault. Several past female members of Biden's staff claim no knowledge of the incident or of any forward behavior by him.

 

I'm quite prepared to believe he behaved with some women in his circle in ways that would be unacceptable today; he's of a generation for whom that was common and not seriously thought about. Bu if this causes him to lose an election to a man like Donald Trump, I'd have to agree with those who maintain God has a sick sense of humor.

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, Sociotard said:

Remind me how credible the sexual harassment allegations against Biden are? I really don't want to have to base my vote on "which one is slightly less handsy"

 

What troubles me is how our mainstream media is basically ignoring these allegations concerning Joe Biden's behavior; they had no real hesitation against conducting an excavation* on Donald Trump's dirt.

 

*Though, to be fair, that can be halfheartedly executed with a plastic toy shovel and still result in enough raw material to start a farm.

[Lord Liaden]

I think the media may be wary of repeating what happened during the 2016 presidential campaign. Attempting to be "balanced," they kept covering Republican allegations about Hillary Clinton's emails as a counterpoint to the more disreputable conduct of Donald Trump, thereby promoting a false equivalency between them in the minds of the public. That arguably contributed to Clinton losing the election. Trump's failings are obvious to anyone bothering to pay attention, but the accusations about Biden might prove to be baseless.

 

Under normal circumstances I would urge this matter be thoroughly investigated and the result made public before the election. But nothing has been normal under the Trump "administration," and the stakes for the outcome have never been higher. And admitting that's my position makes me feel sick. 🤢

[Ragitsu]

Their strategy - which mostly involves gussying up Biden for the autumn dance - is going to backfire in a monumental way.

 

  

On 4/15/2020 at 11:35 PM, Badger said:

He's everybody's since, the Dems have used these last 6 months to botch everything as badly as one party can.  As literally given the state of Biden, the only way I could feel remotely comfortable with him in a crisis, is if he delegated all responsibilities to individual dept heads, and Cabinet staff.  And absolutely no chance, that wouldn't to its own corruption they may meet or exceed what we are seeing now (bitter sarcasm).  

 

Not much to do, but come back here in 2024, and count the survivors.

 

The DNC prefers Donald Trump over an actual progressive politician.

[Pariah]

Even having lived through the process four years ago, I still can't understand how Donald Trump got elected as a Republican. He's not conservative. He's not Christian (at least not outwardly so, IMHO). He isn't a proponent of small government--indeed, as President, his solution to almost every problem has been more government involvement (or interference, depending). He claims to care about national security, but he keeps making decisions that put the nation's security at greater and greater risk.

 

And his base eats it up. For a large number of people President Trump can do no wrong, even when he's doing very little right.

 

I guess being a Republican ain't what it used to be.

[Ragitsu]

3 minutes ago, Pariah said:

I guess being a Republican ain't what it used to be.

 

Mayhap they will once again become the party that ended slavery?

[Pariah]

1 minute ago, Ragitsu said:

Mayhap they will once again become the party that ended slavery?

 

I feel like the closest issue we have to that today is prison reform. And based on their record so far, I find the prospect dubious.

[Hermit]

23 minutes ago, Pariah said:

Even having lived through the process four years ago, I still can't understand how Donald Trump got elected as a Republican. He's not conservative. He's not Christian (at least not outwardly so, IMHO). He isn't a proponent of small government--indeed, as President, his solution to almost every problem has been more government involvement (or interference, depending). He claims to care about national security, but he keeps making decisions that put the nation's security at greater and greater risk.

 

And his base eats it up. For a large number of people President Trump can do no wrong, even when he's doing very little right.

 

I guess being a Republican ain't what it used to be.

 

He tapped into a lot of resentment, much of it quite justifiable if misdirected. He told folks things like Rich people would be paying more, that he'd drain the swamp and stamp out the typical corruption, that he'd bring jobs in manufacturing back to America. Of course, none of those three were kept but we do tend to forget he made those statements... his followers certainly forget... or rationalize. Rich People are making more IF they cut him or his family/friends a chunk of the pie especially, not less; he didn't drain the swamp, he just put in whole new varieties of snakes, some far more toxic than what was there before; and he would make a show of 'saving' fifty jobs at an American factory while ignoring the dozens more companies that happily kept up business as usual or automated with more deals under the table than ever it seems.

 

Now, those that voted for him are divided into chunks. Those who regret; those who see him as winning and would rather win without morality than risk losing with higher ideals; and those who dare not,  not even for a moment, admit they have become cheerleaders for villains bordering on the cartoonish but with ramifications far too harmful to the country. 

 

Of course, it's not just Republicans that voted for him... but let's hope the Independents that were Pro Trump have realized this little experiment has not worked well at all.

 

 

[DShomshak]

10 hours ago, Sociotard said:

Remind me how credible the sexual harassment allegations against Biden are? I really don't want to have to base my vote on "which one is slightly less handsy"

 

The Daily devoted an episode to this, with the NYTimes reporter who twice investigated Tara Reed's allegation. As LL says, no one can offer any support for her claim beyond "She told me this story," the paperwork Ms. Reed says she filed about the incident doesn't seem to exist, and Senate aides who worked with Biden for a long time say the alleged behavior is utterly out of character. They know which male senators a woman does not want to be alone with, and Biden wasn't one of them. After extensive investigation, the (female) reporter finds the allegation "not credible."

 

This hasn't stopped a certain All Things Considered reporter, interviewing women who've been suggested as possible Biden Veeps, what they think of the allegations. I shall grant her, it would be such an exciting plot twist if the Biden campaign suddenly imploded over this.

[Ragitsu]

19 minutes ago, Pariah said:

Even having lived through the process four years ago, I still can't understand how Donald Trump got elected as a Republican. He's not conservative. He's not Christian (at least not outwardly so, IMHO). He isn't a proponent of small government--indeed, as President, his solution to almost every problem has been more government involvement (or interference, depending). He claims to care about national security, but he keeps making decisions that put the nation's security at greater and greater risk.

 

If you don't mind, I have an addendum to contribute: he ping-pongs between badmouthing other nations to rake in those sweet bonus parochial points from those among us that think exclusively in red, white plus blue and scheming with said nations to enrich his family.

[Ragitsu]

10 minutes ago, Hermit said:

and those who dare not,  not even for a moment, admit they have become cheerleaders for villains bordering on the cartoonish but with ramifications far too harmful to the country.

 

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tyMdPwd8x2RygcheE/sunk-cost-fallacy

[Hermit]

1 minute ago, Ragitsu said:

 

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tyMdPwd8x2RygcheE/sunk-cost-fallacy

 

Good link

 

alas, folks are very  reluctant to sacrifice their ego and tribal identification

[Ragitsu]

  

16 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Now, those that voted for him are divided into chunks. Those who regret; those who see him as winning and would rather win without morality than risk losing with higher ideals; and those who dare not,  not even for a moment, admit they have become cheerleaders for villains bordering on the cartoonish but with ramifications far too harmful to the country.

 

If you are one of those people that have known this man for what he is - human-shaped excrement in a suit - long before he considered running for President, you may feel compelled to determine which group in particular he owes the most thanks to, if only to divine a smattering of logic admist this madness. Some have concluded that there is simply a surplus of venom behind the smiles and waves we see across this nation: racism, sexism and/or greed...or at least a general callousness well-practiced at putting on the facade of civility. While I personally believe attributing his political victory solely to hate is overly simplistic, I do not fault people for arriving at the realization that perhaps we have failed on a fundamental level that cannot be shifted to a convenient scapegoat. Ultimately, if we decide that this man is a reflection (fully or partially) of who we are, then we will inevitably be faced with a collective identity crisis. Sad to say, I find it improbable that enough citizens are going to make that effort to dig deep: some don't recognize the problem, some do yet are apathetic and others are willing but feel impotent to effect change.

[Pariah]

46 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tyMdPwd8x2RygcheE/sunk-cost-fallacy

 

As cowboy philosopher Texas Bix Bender says, "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'."

 

Too few people are willing to do this.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

17 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Are you saying we should all give up hope that anyone will make anything any better?

 

Every time I get my hopes up, they're stomped into the ground in spectacular fashion. The power elite is just too entrenched. All we get is talk. I'm sick to death of talk. I'm getting old and I'd like to see some progress before I kick the bucket for pity's sake.

[Badger]

16 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I think the media may be wary of repeating what happened during the 2016 presidential campaign. Attempting to be "balanced," they kept covering Republican allegations about Hillary Clinton's emails as a counterpoint to the more disreputable conduct of Donald Trump, thereby promoting a false equivalency between them in the minds of the public. That arguably contributed to Clinton losing the election. Trump's failings are obvious to anyone bothering to pay attention, but the accusations about Biden might prove to be baseless.

 

Under normal circumstances I would urge this matter be thoroughly investigated and the result made public before the election. But nothing has been normal under the Trump "administration," and the stakes for the outcome have never been higher. And admitting that's my position makes me feel sick. 🤢

 

Yeah, for me, I try to (don't claim I always follows through, lacking perfection and all*) go for truth, and let things fall as they may.  

 

*We will not speak of the possibility of me being wrong again.  

[Badger]

2 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

 

Every time I get my hopes up, they're stomped into the ground in spectacular fashion. The power elite is just too entrenched. All we get is talk. I'm sick to death of talk. I'm getting old and I'd like to see some progress before I kick the bucket for pity's sake.

 

Well, when a person with potential does get elected into an office.  It seems the establishment will corrupt them before the 2nd go around.  So, even if you can get these things, they will be beaten down into status quo more times than not.

 

Note:  When going to work yesterday, I heard Metallica's Unforgiven on the radio, and really related.  So, the corona situation may have gotten to me.

[Badger]

8 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

He tapped into a lot of resentment, much of it quite justifiable if misdirected. He told folks things like Rich people would be paying more, that he'd drain the swamp and stamp out the typical corruption, that he'd bring jobs in manufacturing back to America. Of course, none of those three were kept but we do tend to forget he made those statements... his followers certainly forget... or rationalize. Rich People are making more IF they cut him or his family/friends a chunk of the pie especially, not less; he didn't drain the swamp, he just put in whole new varieties of snakes, some far more toxic than what was there before; and he would make a show of 'saving' fifty jobs at an American factory while ignoring the dozens more companies that happily kept up business as usual or automated with more deals under the table than ever it seems.

 

Now, those that voted for him are divided into chunks. Those who regret; those who see him as winning and would rather win without morality than risk losing with higher ideals; and those who dare not,  not even for a moment, admit they have become cheerleaders for villains bordering on the cartoonish but with ramifications far too harmful to the country. 

 

Of course, it's not just Republicans that voted for him... but let's hope the Independents that were Pro Trump have realized this little experiment has not worked well at all.

 

 

 

Some points are on the right track.  But even with those categories, you have only venn diagrammed a small portion of the Trump voters.  I guess, I mention it, more because I have seen Dems make this mistake continually over the 4 years.  The reality is: Trump voters are like the non-Trump voters, who simply came to a different conclusion in 2016.  And those conclusions, factor in hundreds of reasons and issues.  

[Ragitsu]

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

Also a lot of older people I know, remember the Cold War.  And rightly or wrongly do see the DNC as becoming too Socialist-Communist, and as that being a spit in the face of what they spent their lives defying and standing against.

 

There is one word to describe that: ignorance. I imagine the majority of these seasoned folks would defecate in their underoos if they met an honest-to-goodness communist.

[Starlord]

cult

/kəlt/

 

noun

• a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.

[Badger]

3 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

There is one word to describe that: ignorance. I imagine the majority of these seasoned folks would defecate in their underoos if they met an honest-to-goodness communist.

 

I cant particularly disagree, but you have to understand those people vote.  Just like those on both sides who vote for any number of frivolous reasons.

[Badger]

1 minute ago, Starlord said:

cult

/kəlt/

 

noun

• a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.

 

I do hesitate to use cult in these matters.  I remember the 2008 election, and excessive admiration for Obama definitely existed, and on a widescale.  

[Starlord]

10 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

I do hesitate to use cult in these matters.  I remember the 2008 election, and excessive admiration for Obama definitely existed, and on a widescale.  

 

Obama is a Democrat.

 

Trump is a dangerous, fr@#$king, lowlife, scumbag.

 

Apparently, we see things differently.

[assault]

2 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

There is one word to describe that: ignorance. I imagine the majority of these seasoned folks would defecate in their underoos if they met an honest-to-goodness communist.

 

It depends on how crude and shouty the communist is.

[Badger]

41 minutes ago, Starlord said:

 

Obama is a Democrat.

 

Trump is a dangerous, fr@#$king, lowlife, scumbag.

 

Apparently, we see things differently.

 

I hope you're not implying Obama simply being a Democrat was a justification for the excessive admiration.

 

I see 2 candidates at 2 different times in history using charisma, and vague promises to gather a so-called cult following.  Arguing who had better qualities is missing the point.