Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Ragitsu]

2 hours ago, GM Joe said:

copaganda TV shows

 

They are insidious in the extreme.

[Joe Walsh]

3 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

They are insidious in the extreme.

 

So true!

And omnipresent, from Gunsmoke and Adam-12 when I was a kid to Chicago PD and Rookie today.

Not to mention all those "He had to go beyond the law, because the bad guys were just so bad!" shows and movies explicitly supporting excessive force, extrajudicial killings, and the rest.

[Joe Walsh]

Video of a PRE attack fail in real life.

 

[Cygnia]

Also all the genuflecting most (though thankfully not all) true crime shows/podcasts/books give the police.  Hell, COPS is a major culprit of copaganda...

 

...and who produces it?  FOX.

[Ragitsu]

 

 

[DShomshak]

sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn) was interviewed on All Things Considered yesterday, about legislative efforts at gun control. He's still trying, but warned that the numbers in the Senate are, not to put too fine a point on it, impossible. No Republicans, he said, are going to have epiphanies and switch their established party-line vote. Change will only come through "exercise of raw political power": when there are enough Democrats in the Senate to push through gun control laws by themselves. Ditto at the state level.

 

Unfortunately, I also read that a large fraction of Millennials and Zoomers have given up on politics and don't intend to vote for anyone. They think it's more useful to go to protest marches. This seems to me a recipe for keeping Democrats for ever reaching Murphy's threshold -- which means they will never be able to enact the policies that younger liberals want. Sorry, kids, but "Hey Hey Ho Ho" is not a magical mantra: It doesn't matter how many times you chant it, it will not force change.

 

(And I'm sorry to be the grumpy old guy saying "Kids these days," but I have a low tolerance for magical thinking.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

The Democrats have been disappointing as far as enacting progressive policies, or even seriously discussing them. But they aren't the one of the two major political parties actively trying to subvert the democratic system of government and institute a fascist white-nationalist semi-theocracy.

 

We have to keep telling the Millennials and Zoomers to look up Tiananmen Square, because if the Republicans regain power they've made it clear they'll move to a dictatorship, and then protest marches will end up like that.

[Old Man]

41 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

We have to keep telling the Millennials and Zoomers to look up Tiananmen Square, because if the Republicans regain power they've made it clear they'll move to a dictatorship, and then protest marches will end up like that.

 

The problem with Tiananmen, and many other protests, is that they are nondisruptive and easy to ignore.  If a protest does not at least impede commerce or cause (illegal) property damage, it will have absolutely no effect.  Strikes, blockades, and sit-ins are far more effective. 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

The problem with Tiananmen, and many other protests, is that they are nondisruptive and easy to ignore.  If a protest does not at least impede commerce or cause (illegal) property damage, it will have absolutely no effect.  Strikes, blockades, and sit-ins are far more effective. 

 

But if a protester DOES do that, the best result is getting clubbed and cuffed.  Unless you're not white, in which case "justifiable use of force" means you get shot multiple times.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

The problem with Tiananmen, and many other protests, is that they are nondisruptive and easy to ignore.  If a protest does not at least impede commerce or cause (illegal) property damage, it will have absolutely no effect.  Strikes, blockades, and sit-ins are far more effective. 

 

Tiananmen wasn't easy to ignore. It completely took over the heart of the government district of Beijing, which was symbolically enormous. And appearances are crucial to authoritarian regimes, and even more so in the Orient where "face" is socially very important. Imagine a crowd that size camped out on Capitol Hill.

 

13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

But if a protester DOES do that, the best result is getting clubbed and cuffed.  Unless you're not white, in which case "justifiable use of force" means you get shot multiple times.

 

That's the crux. Peaceful protests, disruptive or not, don't withstand armed force. We've seen more than one example in recent years that Republicans have few if any scruples over using force to break up gatherings they don't like.

[Tom]

Ok, I haven't bothered to read most of the stories coming out of Texas since it's still largely who can scoop who the fastest with the latest juicy bits, but I'm going to throw something out here for people to think about before they continue the rush to the pitchfork and rope concessions...

 

The PD in question is a "no-place-we've-ever-heard-of-and-still-haven't-googled", USA town police force. 

 

They're not the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue Team.

They're not SEAL Team 6.

They're not Hollywood or FPS action heroes.

They're not TTRPG PCs.

 

It's a pretty safe bet we're probably all role players here.  How many of you have ever had to run through a hostage scenario?  Especially with a GM willing to punish "stupid" or bad dice?

 

Imagine doing it without plot armor - and knowing if you screw up people are going to die for real.

 

It's also a safe bet that almost everyone screaming about the what the cops did (or didn't do) would be screaming just as loud if they'd gone all cowboy and gotten those kids just as dead by being reckless.

 

Yeah, protecting those kids was the cops job.  Getting kids, themselves, or anybody else caught in the crossfire killed through stupid wasn't - and isn't.

 

And I'll bet those cops are having a much harder time sleeping at night than you or I are right now...

[Hermit]

You really should read some of the stories. Yes, you'll want to fact check the hell out of them. The shooting was going on while the cops stayed outside. They had to hear the shots. What did they think was going on in there? Balloon popping? You're right that a lot of information is still incoming, but apparently the UPD had active shooter training two months before this. If reports are true that some UPD went in to get JUST their own kids and left other folks kids to die, it's even worse. Police officials have been caught in blatant lies about the time line and events. And, of course there were 9-11 calls going on like this one, from within the school. For the record:

 

Quote

 

A caller identified — I will not say her name, but she was in room 112 — called 911 at 12:03. The duration of the call, was 1 minute and 23 seconds. She identified herself and whispered she’s in room 112.

At 12:10, she called back, in room 112, advised there are multiple dead.

At 12:13, again, she called on the phone.

Again at 12:16, she’s called back and said there was eight to nine students alive.

At 12:19, a 911 call was made, and another person in room 111 called. I will not say her name. She hung up when another student told her to hang up.

At 12:21, you could hear over the 911 call that three shots were fired.

At 12:36, a 911 call, it lasted for 21 seconds. The initial caller called back. The student-child called back, and was told to stay on the line and be very quiet. She told 911 that he shot the door.

At approximately 12:43 and 12:47, she asked 911 to please send the police now.

At 12:46, she said she not could not—— that she could hear the police next door.

At 12:50, shots are fired, they can be heard over the 911 call.

At 12:51, it’s very loud, and sounds like officers are moving children out of the room. At that time, the first child that called was outside before the call cuts off.

 

 

I understand that getting shot at must be terrifying. I will stay behind the safety of my fantasy games and the like. And, I won't be joining the police force. I'm also not a fire fighter, but if a building was on fire and the firefighters just stood around staring at it while there was still a chance to save children trapped inside, I'd be livid with them. I'd know they shouldn't have picked this career. If they then were caught bare face lying about what happened in order to make themselves look good?  Beyond livid with a high dose of disgust and disdain for them as human beings.

 

I don't think the Uvalde police deserve a good nights sleep, or their current jobs.  YMMV.

 

[Cygnia]

 

[Cygnia]

[Pattern Ghost]

There is a fine line between duty to act (which isn't a legal duty in the US for LE, but I believe a moral one), and duty to serve the community by living to continue to serve the community (by avoiding unnecessary risks, including throwing away a life that can help a large number of people to make a reckless attempt to help a single individual). Uvalde PD does not appear to be on the ethical side of that line. They didn't follow current doctrine of getting in as quickly as reasonably possible to preserve lives, and hindered other agencies who were willing to do so. Their reasons for the delay just don't seem to be justified.

 

Apparently, the Texas Rangers and FBI are investigating the Uvalde PD response. It'll be interesting to see what the outcome is.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

More context.

 

Federal agents ignored local cops to storm Texas school.

[Ragitsu]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of school children." - The GOP

[Cygnia]

 

[Dr. MID-Nite]

All I know is the GOP is going to spin this towards further fascist control of America and they'll probably succeed. Most Dems are too invested in the status quo to call them out.

[Lord Liaden]

IMO there's also a strong possibility that the ever-mounting evidence of the GOP's hypocrisy, incompetence, deceit, regressive reactionary philosophy, and naked greed and ambition, will finally reach a critical mass of people and push more of them away from supporting the party than the party's subversive tactics can compensate for.

[Old Man]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

More context.

 

Federal agents ignored local cops to storm Texas school.

 

Don't forget the part where the local cops went in and extracted their own kids from the school first, then stood around doing nothing... except tasing and handcuffing other parents who were trying to go in and get their kids.  This was after holding active shooter drills in that school mere months before the shooting, and bragging about their badass training on social.

[unclevlad]

7 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

IMO there's also a strong possibility that the ever-mounting evidence of the GOP's hypocrisy, incompetence, deceit, regressive reactionary philosophy, and naked greed and ambition, will finally reach a critical mass of people and push more of them away from supporting the party than the party's subversive tactics can compensate for.

 

Sounds great, but that pressure will fade fast.  Sandy Hook didn't last that long.  MS Douglas lasted somewhat longer, but that was due to some of the survivors being active.  There have been DOZENS of these.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

 

Many of em are tangential...they took place at a school, but weren't the same character as this.  (One student pulling a gun on another and shooting is...obviously horrible...but not the incident class.)  I'd bet MANY of these, you've never heard of...Jan. 14th, 2014, Roswell is a good one.  No one died, so...much less coverage.

 

The other thing about that list is how *insanely* frequent these are...and these all involve a school, school-age kids, or a bus...one I noted, started as a domestic incident, and shifted.  A school bus ended up getting shot at.  So, no, it's not strictly school shootings.  And those are hideous, for sure...but the problem the GOP wilfully ignores, is this happens EVERYWHERE, and ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

 

Someone used the spot-on correct term:  desensitized.  The GOP bloody well knows it too;  they use it to simply stall, issuing platitudes.  Nothing suggests their support is even *slightly* moving away from them.

[Lord Liaden]

The point I was making is that it's more than school shootings, even the multiple successive shootings we've had. It's insurrection. It's praising dictators. It's voting again and again against help for needy Americans. It's gerrymandering and recruiting incompetent candidates. It's stacking a biased SCOTUS and attacking women. It's failed electrical grids and border roundup stunts. It's book banning, and censoring teachers while calling for arming them. It's CRT nonsense and Jewish space lasers.

 

Anyone can look at the whole parade of vileness and lunacy that's swept over America over just the last two years, and come to the conclusion that enough is enough. There absolutely will continue to be denial from significant numbers of people, but that's getting harder and harder given how frequently and egregiously the whole mess is being shoved in our faces.

[unclevlad]

You're assuming a rational evaluation.  The counter argument:

 

https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/q1-22-ratings-fox-news-remains-no-1-and-is-only-cable-news-network-to-post-year-over-year-gains/504105/

 

To their mind, it's more like this:

Book banning...I don't want MY Suzie learning about those things!!!  Ban em!!

Helping needy Americans...lazy dirtbags who don't wanna work!!!  damn libs are all about handouts  

Gerrymandering...just reversing the fake efforts of the libs!!

School shootings...arm the teachers, hire more guards!  Guns stop guns!!!

'Stacking the court'....<blank stare>

Border roundups...illegals and thieves, get rid of em!!!

 

 

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

School shootings...arm the teachers, hire more guards!  Guns stop guns!!!

 

Technically, it was people with guns that stopped this last guy.

 

But the big problem is this: Stopping someone who is already shooting is reactive and not proactive. We need to stop these events before they start.

 

The vast majority of these school shooters telegraph their intentions in advance, often in very obvious ways. Our law enforcement and social services need to intervene earlier and redirect these people before they act.

 

Honestly, every teacher in this country should have Stop the Bleed training*. That'd be more effective than arming random teachers.

 

 

 

 

*This is actually good for everyone to have, just as a general life skill. You may never use it, but like CPR it can safe a life if the occasion arises.