Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[wcw43921]

Abortion Activists Strip During Osteen Church Service

[Pariah]

[Cygnia]

Uvalde Mom Who Saved Kids From School Shooting Says Police Threatened Her

[Tom]

 

Just a random appearance in my Facebook feed…

[Old Man]

Wealthy man from Uvalde weighs in on the shooting:
 

Spoiler

 

It's half an hour long, just watch from 7:00 to 9:00 if you're pressed for time.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Warning.  Have a fresh box of Kleenex before playing the video above.

 

I hope he's right that this may offer an opportunity for meaningful reform, but I cannot say I expect it.

 

 

[Pariah]

Imma just leave this here...

 

Michigan Republican governor candidate Ryan Kelley arrested for Capitol riot role

[Joe Walsh]

This story of the bloodsuckers who are consolidating the market for the products that keep people with diabetes alive is just infuriating:

https://pluralistic.net/2022/06/10/loopers/

 

That our political system allows this to continue no matter which party is in control of our government is doubly infuriating.

It seems we have no choice at all.

 

[unclevlad]

6 minutes ago, GM Joe said:

That our political system allows this to continue no matter which party is in control of our government is doubly infuriating.

It seems we have no choice at all.

 

 

Given that the Republicans will resist changes strenuously, and will invoke "FREE ENTERPRISE!!!!" loudly...and will fight in legislatures and the courts, and challenge new techniques through the approval process...getting anything done is all but impossible.

 

Note that it's not just diabetes.  Mylan and Pfizer settled EpiPen overcharge claims with sizeable settlements...probably pennies on the dollar, tho.  EpiPens were going for $600 a pop...when it should cost $10.  Oh, and parents whose kids needed em?  They needed to get one for use at school.  And their shelf life is...6 months.  So you're looking at 4 a year, even if you don't use them.  Heck, look at the mess in trying to get the oxycontin lawsuit settled.  Too many parties, too many interests, too much money, so it just drags on and on and on.

 

Our judicial system was built on trying to be fair, to avoid a tyranny of the majority and to assure both sides can be heard.  Problem is, smart lawyers have flipped that, so those mechanisms are used to be completely obstructive.

[Joe Walsh]

24 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Note that it's not just diabetes.  Mylan and Pfizer settled EpiPen overcharge claims with sizeable settlements...probably pennies on the dollar, tho.  EpiPens were going for $600 a pop...when it should cost $10.  Oh, and parents whose kids needed em?  They needed to get one for use at school.  And their shelf life is...6 months.  So you're looking at 4 a year, even if you don't use them.

 

That's a great example! And that Joe Manchin's daughter played a key part in making it happen is so on brand for that family.

 

Like you said, the system is being exploited, and us with it. 😞

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, GM Joe said:

This story of the bloodsuckers who are consolidating the market for the products that keep people with diabetes alive is just infuriating:

https://pluralistic.net/2022/06/10/loopers/

 

That our political system allows this to continue no matter which party is in control of our government is doubly infuriating.

It seems we have no choice at all.

 

 

This was entirely predictable given that Republicans currently control the Senate (actual headcount notwithstanding).

[Sociotard]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Given that the Republicans will resist changes strenuously, and will invoke "FREE ENTERPRISE!!!!" loudly...

 

It doesn't really seem to be a conservative/progressive problem. Cory Booker was famously in the pocket of big pharma.

[Lord Liaden]

It is a GOP problem today, though. The party have aligned themselves firmly with big business, and fight anything that would restrict business's ability to profit first and foremost, regardless of broader negative effects. BTW alliance of government and industry is one of the fundamental characteristics of fascism.

[DShomshak]

The June 4, 2022 issue of The Economist has some articles people might find interesting.

 

Cover story: Russia breaking the "Nuclear Taboo" with near-daily threats to use nuclear weapons, either in Ukraine or against Western countries. Even if nuclear weapons ultimately aren't used, just talking about it makes the danger greater that someone will use nukes, sometime, by treating it as a potentially feasible tactic -- especially if Russia seems to gain advantage from the mere threat. Leaders also must note that Ukraine gave up its share of the Soviet nuclear arsenal for security guarantees that turn out to be worthless. Now, Ukraine didn't have the industrial infrastructure to maintain those nukes, and it probably would have paid a high political price for doing so, so it still might have been the only reasonable choice at the time. But the leaders of every country with potentially troublesome neighbors must be thinking, "Huh, maybe I need a nuclear deterrent." This makes it vitally important, the article argues, that Russia lose hard in Ukraine, to establish that nukes are neither a Win Button nor even an Escape Geopolitical Consequences button.

 

Though the article also notes that the Nuclear Taboo may only have been held by policy elites. Many ordinary people in nuclear-armed countries think it's perfectly acceptable to use nuclear weapons on the battlefield if it would save lives of their own troops. (Presumably, of course, agaionst a foe who is not similarly armed.)

 

Disturbingly, the Russian ambassador who rec ently resigned over the Ukraine invasion claims that many Russian strategic policy people think, or claim to think, that Russia could achieve a quick and easy victor over the US by using nuclear weapons. Just drop a nuke on some small town in the US, and the cowardly Americans will drop to their knees and beg for mercy. The ambassador thinks they're insane.

 

For something completely different: Education as a way of coping with climate change. It's a truism that poor people in the Global South are the least responsible for climate change but are already suffering from it the most. Education ma not help them do anything to curb climate change, but it sure helps them deal with the effects by enabling them to improve their income, change how they farm or conduct animal husbandry, and -- not least -- just to know what's going on. The ignorant and illiterate stubbornly cling to the old, customary ways of doing things because they know nothing else and they have no margin for experimentation. Educated people gain just by knowing that things can and have been done differently, and how to find the information they recognize that they need.

 

The article particularly notes the powerful effects of educating girls and women. Doesn't say whether this is more effective than educating males, or if so, why, though I can imagine some reasons. But the gist is that of all the ways to raise the Third World out of poverty and create more resilient societies, education may give the greatest return on investment.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Before the current war in Ukraine, North Korea was only the most outstanding recent example of how little dogs get away with yapping loud when their bite includes some nuclear teeth. I guarantee the rest of the world have taken notice.

 

Education in poorer countries isn't the only way education fights climate change. Poorly educated people in wealthier countries are among the strongest deniers of and impediments to environmental reform, being more susceptible to disinformation and manipulation.

[Pattern Ghost]

49 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Poorly educated people in wealthier countries are among the strongest deniers of and impediments to environmental reform, being more susceptible to disinformation and manipulation.

 

I'm not sure how much educational level plays into this. There are plenty of highly-educated deniers running around. I think it has more to do with emotional manipulation. People make most decisions with their emotions rather than their logic. That's a driving principle of both economics and marketing. A proper education should teach people to think for themselves, to question emotional appeals and to verify any claims despite their own personal biases, but . . . most people are mediocre students, even the "educated." (Trust me, I once had to explain how to build a Gantt chart to a Brown MBA...)

 

It's really, really hard to teach people to think past emotional manipulations.

[Ragitsu]

Is it always so binary, though? Emotions mix with logic and logic mixes with emotion all the time.

[Pariah]

Wizard's Third Rule: Passion rules reason. When confronted with a choice between what we instinctively feel to be true and what can be demonstrated objectively to be true, most of us will go with our gut most of the time.

[Lord Liaden]

39 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I'm not sure how much educational level plays into this. There are plenty of highly-educated deniers running around. I think it has more to do with emotional manipulation. People make most decisions with their emotions rather than their logic. That's a driving principle of both economics and marketing. A proper education should teach people to think for themselves, to question emotional appeals and to verify any claims despite their own personal biases, but . . . most people are mediocre students, even the "educated." (Trust me, I once had to explain how to build a Gantt chart to a Brown MBA...)

 

It's really, really hard to teach people to think past emotional manipulations.

 

"A proper education system" is a whole discussion topic in itself... but demographically speaking, more educated people tend to lean liberal in their views, a trend that grows more pronounced with more extensive education; while less education tends to correlate with more conservative views. That difference has been pretty consistent through decades of surveys. In recent years the division has firmly mapped onto political polarization.

 

44 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

Is it always so binary, though? Emotions mix with logic and logic mixes with emotion all the time.

 

For many people it does, although not inherently so. Logic is a dispassionate process of reasoning, which is only as valid as the assumptions taken as its basis; but emotion doesn't require reason, and is often antithetical to it. Ideally one should try to find a balance between the two, but they don't integrate very well.

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Disturbingly, the Russian ambassador who rec ently resigned over the Ukraine invasion claims that many Russian strategic policy people think, or claim to think, that Russia could achieve a quick and easy victor over the US by using nuclear weapons. Just drop a nuke on some small town in the US, and the cowardly Americans will drop to their knees and beg for mercy. The ambassador thinks they're insane.

 

 

Insane is too mild.

Partisan politics 20 years ago wasn't *as* divisive, but it was still very nasty.  9/11 absolutely unified the country.  I can't recall anyone who really objected to the invasion of Afghanistan;  I'm sure that there were dedicated anti-war adherents who didn't *like* that it was happening, but even there, I'd think most understood and didn't get vociferous.  

 

And how many remember The Night bin Laden Died?  And Obama's announcement.  It was an assassination, carried out by the government.  The shout of approval and relief was enormous.  It was totally amazing.  I don't believe I cried...but it was close.  It was soooo intense.

 

If Russia dropped a nuke anywhere on US turf now, with Biden president...first thing would be that the right-wing talking heads would blame Biden for being soft.  BUT at the same time, they'd be leading the call for a full-on counterstrike.  The declaration of war would be drawn up, passed, and signed within hours...potentially purely by acclamation.  

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise is totally clueless.

[Pariah]

43 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

"A proper education system" is a whole discussion topic in itself... but demographically speaking, more educated people tend to lean liberal in their views, a trend that grows more pronounced with more extensive education; while less education tends to correlate with more conservative views. That difference has been pretty consistent through decades of surveys. In recent years the division has firmly mapped onto political polarization.

 

To be fair, there are some fairly well educated conservatives out there. They just don't let that education get in the way of their political process.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

"A proper education system" is a whole discussion topic in itself... but demographically speaking, more educated people tend to lean liberal in their views, a trend that grows more pronounced with more extensive education; while less education tends to correlate with more conservative views. That difference has been pretty consistent through decades of surveys. In recent years the division has firmly mapped onto political polarization.

 

 

For many people it does, although not inherently so. Logic is a dispassionate process of reasoning, which is only as valid as the assumptions taken as its basis; but emotion doesn't require reason, and is often antithetical to it. Ideally one should try to find a balance between the two, but they don't integrate very well.

 

The Universe divided
As the Heart and Mind collided
With the people left unguided
For so many troubled years
In a cloud of doubts and fears
Their world was torn asunder into hollow hemispheres

 

Some fought themselves, some fought each other
Most just followed one another
Lost and aimless like their brothers
For their hearts were so unclear
And the truth could not appear
Their spirits were divided into blinded hemispheres

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

To be fair, there are some fairly well educated conservatives out there. They just don't let that education get in the way of their political process.

 

Absolutely. I've known a few. Education doesn't invariably result in identical political opinions, and differing opinions shouldn't be a bar to rational discourse. They weren't in past decades, before those Americans who seem to dominate the conversation on the conservative side today became batsh!t crazy.

[Pattern Ghost]

4 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

Is it always so binary, though? Emotions mix with logic and logic mixes with emotion all the time.

 

More emotion in there than you'd guess. Humans are reactive animals. Everything we experience gets processed through our amygdala. Most people kind of suck at not letting their emotions hijack their thought process.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

"A proper education system" is a whole discussion topic in itself... but demographically speaking, more educated people tend to lean liberal in their views, a trend that grows more pronounced with more extensive education; while less education tends to correlate with more conservative views. That difference has been pretty consistent through decades of surveys. In recent years the division has firmly mapped onto political polarization.

 

This just means that Liberals have taken over the educational system to further their agendas. 😁

[Pariah]

Hey, keep it down! We can't very well have a top secret Left-wing educational indoctrination conspiracy if you go around telling everybody!